No, it's not because of no progress report but lack of new content. If Scawen could just release things as they are in their current state, call it a pre-beta-test patch. These are the last seconds for releasing Westhill. After that time, nobody will even notice the update.
no, if he took 5min to write whats going on, people will talk in a more sensible way. like i said there has been lack of new content for the last 7 years, how come when there is progress report there isn't that much flame around? simple thinking.
I don't think the regular LFS customers/racers are there only source of income. LFS has also been sold to run on simulators that are played on commercial events. So I think that's another source of regular income.
I also dissagree that activity is that bad. I'm supporting Absolute-Beginners.nl and they have an event every sunday evening, with more then enough players on track every week and good racing as well. Same seems to be happening with the recently launched XFG/XRG server, which seems to be packed every night (if you should believe the topic about that server).
Last thing is about banned people from this forum. Banning someone isn't something moderators will do lightly (I can know, as I moderate in several places) and certainly not because they don't care. So those people that are banned, have earned it and kept doing what they were doing, even while being warned several times through several channels.
Just let Scawen and Eric work on their own pace as they have always done and accept what is coming from that, when something is coming from that. You paid for the game in the state it was when you bought it and all that has come since then, was totally for free.
So nobody has a right on anything and everyone that has been around long enough, knows that Scawen only settles for the best and if that isn't there yet, he will keeps working on it, until he is satisfied.
That's why he left his regular job a long time ago and as long as LFS keeps his boat floating one way or the other, he will keep working that way.
So either accept that and play along or go and find your self another game that you like, with updates every X days/weeks/months, payed content, problems that are hardly or never fixed, ect. etc.
at this point I regret giving these lame bastards my ~$40 or whatever it converted to back in 2006. if I had known then that the claims of content being worked on were practically false advertising, I'd have thought twice about offering them my financial support. seriously, even if you had been working on content for 8 years Scawen, I can't consciously support a developer who sucks so bad at following through on his obligations to his customers
I'd rather play circa 05 rFactor these days. at least there are people in that community still giving a damn
I am not talking about release estimations, im talking about e.g what has been done last month, what were the obstacles, what are being planned to be done, how good is it going etc. otherwise inevitably its hard for people to understand what can ever take 10 months making just one track. then flame wars and lfs is dead talks begin. but i believe as i said earlier there is no "finished" thing in scawen's book, so it constantly needs work and cant be released ever. he constantly finds new things to do while doing the new things he found while completing the first things. I dont want to think in a way that he announces something then never works on it. i believe former is the real reason.
I'm just waiting for Scawen to come and say "We're working very hard on the update, and we want to finish it as soon as possible." The problem is - we don't want to hear that. We would like to have a chance to try the new track.
I doubt especially the regularity of their income of events, but I wont speculate on that.. as I never spoke about a financial income.. I do not regard it as an direct reply to what i said. You are also hard defending.. its np to me.. just stating the situation.
About the activity... well.. jeez. It seems the smaller you make your world.. the easier you judge. You sure your registrated in 2005? Try to enlarge your world from only absolute beginners till the complete platform. I mean... I seriously doubt all the serious organizers of events like GenR and NDR all left because the situation is still as good as it was. And I am talking about activity of racing.. as I still regard LFS as a racing simulator. Not saying drifting shouldn't be allowed.. but it shouldn't be what the focus is on. In that fashion.. the situation is just not very positive and isn't really something to argue about... but whatever you want. And than I don't even speak about the amount of people that are really trying to be serious, competitive etc.
As online racing was quite dead.. i decided to go after roadcar world records. Then I learned some people ( won't say their names) have found a way to cheat on that.. even in hotlap mode! So there is no levelled playing field.. as a result I stopped doing hotlapping as well. Notifications about cheating, even with replays etc have been sent to devs.. but not even an answer! And in that case I wasn't the only one who didnt get any respons. So for those who would like serious racing on a level playing field... LFS is now no option...?? Attractive!
About that banning. It was just the attitude of Scawen. Feeling probably something of 'too big' to accept he was wrong. It's why more people starting to say this. When they then get banned.. while Scawen obviously knew just as much as the rest of the world he was wrong... you address totally the wrong message to the people who are trying to continue building along on this platform. I don't like kissing asses.. and if that's the issue.. I think i was really right with my previous statement.
And for the last part you replied. I never said anything close to the 'rights' members have on updates because they paid for the game (read!). I agreed with Sinbad on that. You should read it as that it's obvious people complain because of the atmosphere that is created around updates by the devs themselves. Members are putting a lot of effort and often money ( hosting servers, websites etc) in.. when that seems to get more and more useless.. At least they have the right to complain! (Which also could be seen as a motivation or the will to work on making it better or more attractive)
Yes I registered in 2005 and paid for S1 then and S2 later when it came out.
It's still a great game and while I am not very active on the track, I am hosting servers for many years, wrote a lot of software that can be run within the Lapper environment and did a lot of work for several racing teams up to and including today.
So I think I know what LFS and the community is about and also know how Scawen likes to work and all that can come up during developement.
I agree that communication could be better, but on the other hand, the times Scawen did communicate, they keep hammering ever since (Sirocco, laser scanned track, etc.)
It's understandable that people have a hard time waiting for things to come and understanding at what high level of details Scawen is working, but then again it's up to them to either stick around and wait what will come or to move on (it either being for good or temporarely).
Another factor are the changes people have in their private lifes.
When they started racing actively, they might be still at school, while they now have a job, a wife, children etc. which limits the time they have to organise events, race online etc.
So yes, I agree that activity in general is going downwards and that's partly because of the lack of new content, but it certainly isn't the only reason why that's happening.
Not to mention the load of patches that have come out over the years, which brought a lot of improvements.
Large amount of comments appear quite absurd. For example:
Are you sure you could tell the new Westhill apart from the old Westhill?
I am not debatting if it needs 100, 500 or 10000 laps to get bored of a track.
But if someone complains so harsh and only did handful of half-assed laps...how serious can one take that?
Other posters even have zero laps on Westhill and other tracks too.
Am I supposed to believe that in the many last YEARS, 2006 to now, it was impossible to find a server to do even one race? Since 2006?
Some people did clearly not play the game or did something very wrong. Either way their posts have very little value to me.
Problematic I found how this group always tries to be the "loudest" and I find it annoying how the forum gets cluttered. I think it also scares away many new players who only superficialy read some random posts. (I know that almost happend to me.)
But after a while everything gets boring and routine
People who played for many years, did many laps, raced in events and so on: Understandable that eventually everything feels stale.
But while I can understand it, I do not believe that there is "a right to complain:"
One should remember it took them years to get bored.
New players still have those years before them.
Most people seem to know that and when bored they just silently take a break or whatever.
What I do not understand is others being so negative: Like some old man who tells everybody that last century everything was better?
It really gets annoying!
For years you raced on servers provided by members of community, in leagues organized by the community, got your forum questions answered by community.
So I think it is not asking much to respect that others want to do the same things now.
I may have actually wrote something like that back then... or maybe I just kept it to myself?
And about my longing for new content. Check my lfs stats, you will figure out I did play basically just demo content. Later I bought S2 license to support Scawen, but never really played the game anymore, don't have proper HW/time/mood for it right now, the go-karting is enough for me at the moment.
Actually I'm looking forward for the S3, as I hope Scawen will add lot of details to simulation aspect. I don't care about any new track or car, for me current content is enough, I'm missing more the subtleties of real world racing (mostly tires and weather + live track).
actually in real world go kart season we raced 3 tracks last year (Cheb, Pisek, Sosnova)... but we had 6 races... Racing the Cheb track third time a season was a bit annoying already, I admit...
There is no reason to say, or think, that your money was wasted on the product you bought at the time. 2006 was right on the height of the biggest time of LFS so far, and it lasted all the way into 2011 at the very latest. There is no reason you should not think you had the ability to already get your money's worth and then some! Society's problem nowadays is buying something with the EXPECTATION of future happenings, instead of paying money for what the product already is - food and stocks should be the only thing you buy because of what it will be in future, other things you buy because you know what they are capable of and you pay for it as-is then, anything else is just bonus.
People in this community still do give a damn, you just can't hear them for all the complaining. You are doing a disservice to those who do still give a damn by implying that no one in the LFS community gives a damn.
NDR has not left, please do not state it that way. NDR has suspended full league operations until the community gets a bit more healthy - we are still running (not very frequent but enough) of our flagship races, and are always considering what to do in LFS. The suspension was due to the sole fact that participation was dwindling unacceptably low, and NDR had kind of lost its way and needed a break. Slowly working on building the infrastructure to offload the bureaucratic work onto the website to free up resources for the other things needed, reshaping some operations, etc. It is a shame, as until the last 18 months, everything was going along quite well, but severe declines in participation really blew. Case in point: LFSCART 2014 had 63 entries at the final round, 26 of them had been automatically withdrawn for failure to communicate whether or not they were going to participate. It's highly disrespectful to those who put in their time and effort to sign up, give the appearance of interest, then never turn up or even say you won't be able to turn up, for whatever reason. It gives a false hope that grids will be full.
There have always been the naysayers/negative people posting the negative things, but they'd usually be drowned out by those who took the time to discuss the good and the bad in constructive ways, and help out LFS. The real downturn in LFS started when CTRA shut down - which was more due to the people doing that moving on and not having or trusting anyone to take the reigns, than lack of progress back then. A lot of the problem is the core from the 2006-2010 heyday has come of age, gotten jobs, etc etc, and the usual replacement cycle has not kept up with it. It will take a heavy bit to fix that, but it could still happen.
You are much more likely to get positive result by offering constructive criticsm, instead of just bashing and calling them lazy bastards. Childish behaviour and the insults seems to be what put the devs off of offering progress reports in the first place, anyway!
Deko, you've been moderator as long as I've owned LFS and I remember you as such. One of the biggest things in advertising the S2 license ~9 years ago was the fact that you'd get this wonderful S1 and S2 content now, and then you'd be able to upgrade to S3 soon as it came out for cheaper than it would be to get the license as is. That was LFS' whole marketing for multiple years. Don't try to drub that out of history and make it sound like S2 was offered for what it was, because it simply wasn't. I flat out would not have bought the game if I thought what I was getting was going to be the only slice of pie for the next 9 years. If you wish to blame society for the expectation of future happenings, you must also blame Scawen as part of that society for promising future happenings and then re-iterating those promises once a year, every year.
Sorry, I should have been specific. I mean developers and people who create content for rFactor still give a damn. The LFS devs don't care if they get it out this week or any given week years from now because that's how their development cycle works. Scawen has said it multiple times.
It's funny that you write this last bit because when I offered constructive criticism tens of pages ago, I was ignored and none of my posts were replied to. Isn't it funny that the only way to get you to respond, or anybody for that matter, is to call them lazy bastards? By all means, if calling Scawen lazy is enough to light the fire under his ass, I'm glad to be the flint.
EDIT: I'm not even going to dignify Gutholz with a response. The fact that I'm acknowledging his post even exists should be enough to quell his ignorance.
No,he hasn't - he got forum moderator status 2012 (+/-),the latest addition to moderators team,I believe.
Another bunch of crap that's sucked out of some dirty finger - it has always been advertised that every stage costs 12 pounds. If someone new buys S3,it will cost him 36 pounds. But if you have already S2,S3 will cost you extra 12 pounds,which in total will be same 36 pounds,as you have already bought S2 for 24.
You bought the software as is and the funny part - you can still access the very same content you could from very start. So you are upset that you haven't got anything extra now? Actually you have already few things extra - 2 cars (BF1 and FBM),updates (like open configurations and whatever future brings) and bug fixes. Or will you go back to 0.5P or whatever you got first?
tl;dr - stop whining,won't help enyone or affect anything. You paid for content,you still got it and will have it for life. Yes,of course - LFS could be much bigger then it is now if devs would do things better,but face it - you can't do anything about it.
So enjoy what yo have,if it's not enough,try something else - iRacing,which is slightly cheaper then real racing,AC with hideous online mode,practically capable hosting only public racing,rFactor with all the trouble modding gives you...
As Eclipsed said, I have only been a Moderator since around 2012. I have been a prominent member of the community in some capacity since late 2008, when my broadcasting and leagues really started to take shape.
To my recollection, a price level for S3 was NEVER stated by the developers. The community at large has presumed it will be £12, as that is the price for each S1 and S2, which combines into £24. Never when I was going through the ordering process, did it mention S3 being released anytime soon, it just said they reserve the right and that one should expect to modify the game as they see fit. I didn't actually purchase S2 until the beginning of 2008, so I may have missed that marketing, but I also joined before the whole "early 2009" Scirocco episode, so know what was the big deal of the day back then. Scawen has been nothing but brutally honest with himself on how they made a mistake in putting effort into tyre physics without doing anything else, and are working to fill the void. It's of course harder to make good from the mistake than not making the mistake in the first place, but hindsight is of course perfect, so he never would have known if it wasn't for the mistake - end result, he's a better individual for it.
The only promises in life are death and taxation, the rest is purely random.
I'm pretty sure most others work to somewhat the same degree as Scawen, they just won't blow deadlines even with just cause. I learned a long time ago, outside of LFS, to not expect anything until you have it - cynical yes, but is probably the best way to look at things.
I don't quite think slinging mud in his direction is the best way to "light a fire under his ass" - he has always seemed to have been one able to block out the BS and get on with his gig, even if it doesn't result in publicly tangible goods. I would enjoy a more frequent progress report just as much as any, I enjoy how well he describes what he's been working on, it's always a good read. However, the cold feet that has been gotten due to some negative reactions isn't quite the best, but it's what they've decided and I'm in no position to change it.
Tryied rFactor and pretty much all bigger mods have diffrent physics from eachother (so you play one game with 5 diffrent physics) and when modding is so much easy then its even easier to have other racers with "faster" cars then you but they might look like the same and so called "cheating" isn't that hard anymore in a modded game billions of times.
Thats why you can't modify LFS, its to prevent from cheating and having more fun from just racing.
The implication of this is that you can complain as much as you like about whatever, but nobody should ever disagree with you?
Seems to me that dickheads like you are all about attacking people who you know won't fight back. Developers can't get into battles with trolls like you because it's a no win situation for them, and you know it.
You can't read or you probably dont understand that someone can make "mod x" to rFactor and in this mod he can also modify physics of the game and then it has nothing similar with default game physics. I saw some drift mods for example and they have other physics than original in game physics just to make drifting easier. Well yes there are mods which only adds cars and tracks to rFactor and they use original physics, but there is alot mods where creator of the mod might think real cars doesn't drive like what it is in original rF and makes his own physics.
Don't come here and talk about Westhill unless you buy a license. Otherwise please go somewhere else. Next I hear from you, I will ban your account. Not that you will care as I suppose you are either a hacker or you have created that account purely for trolling.
Demo racers can't drive at Westhill. Are we clear?
You don't know what we are doing, so you can't comment.
For the other people, we are working very hard finishing the Westhill update. It's getting very close now but the way of the world is that we can't give a release date estimate. It's going well though.