Quote from Sobis :

I'm not good at this economy thing. Does this mean that the price will go up a bit here in Lithuania (as well as in other countries except for UK)? In other words I should add £12 to my account now instead of some time after 2015?

It is called in your country as: Pridėtinės vertės mokestis

In your country, it should go up as 21%, as in Finland it goes 24%.

This is what nearly everu EU country is being used, but never really an outside of home country, so it means every product you buy, it will go VAT as in your country ( or that country where the product is, depending where the taxes go)

LFS Product has VAT added already, if I understood anything correctly. I am just answering fast so please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, and I think I might be so no problem.




But afterall, in Finland, there is high taxes and taxes about everything, so I don't give a single brick about it, in other hand of meaning, doesn't really make difference, only more taxes lol.

EDIT: I did read actually more info. VAT of percentage will be added to the product from the country where you buy a product ( lol bad english )

So if you buy a product which is from Finland, it will be 24% more because VAT in Finland is 24%, so the VAT is always set on the target country, not the country where you belong. Correct me if I am wrong.

So what I have understood, the price will not raise due the things of already solved, but needs to have more information about the proof. So it can be shown the actual trade

EDIT2:
Or I do not know, but I got interested, so tomorrow I start to learn about this as well, perhaps because I see it is complicated and a bit amusing about tax itself.

I do not know about pre-ordering. If you for example, pre-order a car from Germany, have bought it already before year of 2015, will they look the payment is done or it is not done, as if the car will be delivered after the year of 2015 and then the payment is officially finished, will it the tax must pay afterwards as surtax? lol

Quote from vitaly_m :

I wonder how do the bigger ones deal with it -- the ebay, steam and others... Their goal is to provide easy-to-use selling and buying service, might be usefull to read their statements on the problem.

Big companies will be OK, this just rules out one of the ways they could reduce their tax bill.

Quote from vitaly_m :

And I really don't understand what exactly is the problem for LFS -- the fact that there is some more monkey work to be done? Or is that you don't actually know how exactly do you deal with it? If latter, it sound really bad and at this moment when people are on hollidays already nothing can be really done properly...

It's not really a problem, the only ongoing problem is there is just more stupid accounting to be done.

The actual problems we have been experiencing that have done my head in for the past few days are to do with the non-contactability of our tax authority, HMRC.

You can wait on the phone for 20 minutes then talk to someone, who just says "I don't know the answer but I can get someone else from the technical section to call you back tomorrow". But no-one calls back for a few days and you realise it's not going to happen.

Then you use the email form to report a problem with the website, a bug that causes an error message and tells you to contact the Online Services Helpdesk. They reply:

Quote :

Thank you for your e-mail.

You have submitted your query to the VAT Online Services Helpdesk and not the VAT written enquiry team. To ensure your question is handled by the appropriate team please follow the link below, read the guidance and select the relevant link for your enquiry.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/managing/problems/getting-answers.htm

As you can see, that's pretty stupid, when you are reporting a website issue, that actually told you to contact them.

So what do you do, contact the other thing which seems irrelevant. Then you get no reply.

So you try again to register. Same bug. You report again to the Online Services Helpdesk and they reply again "You have submitted your query to the VAT Online Services Helpdesk".

Thing is, each time they reply such stupid copy and paste stuff, you can't reply to them. Replying just gets you an email saying you can't write to this email address. So it's back to the form again and trying to re-word your question so they respond. But every time, a stupid response or a random copy and paste from their website, as if you hadn't spend several days reading that already.

This is a very short version of the experience of trying to communicate with the UK tax authority. They don't want to know. All they want is to keep getting your money and fine you if it's late. That is the business they are in.

Actually today we have made a decision to de-register for VAT and register again in the new year. Because it has literally not been possible to get one single word from them on how to change our status to the correct status, no matter how many times we try. So, instead of continuing to bang our head on a wall, we now de-register, even though we know we have to re-register in a couple of weeks, to use the VAT MOSS system. In theory then we'll just be registering like any small business who has not been VAT registered before. You'd think that would work. At the moment we are in a minority position and they haven't even thought through the majority positions yet. So we're doing this to try and cut our losses before we overrun into a situation that gets out of hand, where things are 'too late' and they just start fining us and so on.

Quote from UnknownMaster21 :

Quote from Sobis :

I'm not good at this economy thing. Does this mean that the price will go up a bit here in Lithuania (as well as in other countries except for UK)? In other words I should add £12 to my account now instead of some time after 2015?

It is called in your country as: Pridėtinės vertės mokestis

In your country, it should go up as 21%, as in Finland it goes 24%.

This is what nearly everu EU country is being used, but never really an outside of home country, so it means every product you buy, it will go VAT as in your country ( or that country where the product is, depending where the taxes go)

LFS Product has VAT added already, if I understood anything correctly. I am just answering fast so please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, and I think I might be so no problem.

As I said, this doesn't affect LFS prices, as we already accounted for VAT before.

This is all about something that the government has known for 6 years but HAS NEVER TOLD US so suddenly we have had to prepare for this, a few days before Christmas.

They are so stupid, it defies belief. It is a massive hassle and as I keep saying, this does not affect your prices or the existence of LFS. It just means we have to stop in our tracks and try to communicate with a government department that is as responsive as a brick wall. This new VAT MOSS thing also causes many smaller business to simply shut down. It's that bad.

It is possible that, on reading my previous post, you cannot believe that HMRC is so stupid, but it's really true. If you want to know more about problems caused by the new EU VAT rules for digital services, please have a look on Google:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%23vatmoss

Quote from Scawen :

It is possible that, on reading my previous post, you cannot believe that HMRC is so stupid, but it's really true. If you want to know more about problems caused by the new EU VAT rules for digital services, please have a look on Google:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%23vatmoss

Fire off a letter to your MP and one to your MEP. At least then you are talking to someone who has some small amount of real leverage!

Quote from Scawen :

... It's that bad.

Understood
___________________________________

I did read more about this VAT and... oh man, feels like Government of Finland lol



EDIT: Let's make new thread of this, if people gets interested.

Hope you will even get a nice Christmas in family without VAT in mind and get some deserved holidays

Scawen, all government departments are that bad.

I was trying to get hold of VOSA's technical department (Now a part of the DVSA) to get a single vehicle approval for towing for the clio (all the sport models have no approval despite being perfectly capable, other than the 182), and ended up getting bounced around until I was forced to give up. It's all a game for them to see how much they can wriggle out of.

Quote from Flotch :

Hope you will even get a nice Christmas in family without VAT in mind and get some deserved holidays

Thank you, and yes, now that we applied to deregister for VAT, this is a standard process so it should go through. That is a weight off our minds so we are ready to enjoy some nice days off!

I hope you all have a nice break and I look forward to getting the Westhill support finished so we can release that. We want to get on with other things, so we obviously want to get that out as soon as possible!

Quote from McGherkin :

Scawen, all government departments are that bad.

I was trying to get hold of VOSA's technical department (Now a part of the DVSA) to get a single vehicle approval for towing for the clio (all the sport models have no approval despite being perfectly capable, other than the 182), and ended up getting bounced around until I was forced to give up. It's all a game for them to see how much they can wriggle out of.

That sounds like a frustrating nightmare, for something so simple.

Yes, wriggling out of it seems the way, just trying to get rid of paperwork / emails with the minimum effort, not considering or caring that there is a real person there at the other end with a genuine need, trying to do the right thing!

A simple solution, base your 'office' offshore. As an example, register your company in NZ, it's easy to register here even if the owners are based offshore.

You pay NZ GST on internal sales, any foreign buyers are exempt GST.

You make back the money for NZ tax complience within 6 months maximum.
Less when you release S3 !

Result, PROFIT.

You'll probably find that that's a deal simpler. Screw the EU !

There are several tax havens in the Pacific where it would be even cheaper.

Well well well.. Finally something we can agree on

Wow... "Westhill Progress (November) Thread and then such Big Off-Topics... Wow... Why you "Scawen" dont delete this Posts and your Posts too? Oh man...

Other Solution is to Rename this Thread to "Speak over the VAC or what i know what you want."

It's progress related because it's delaying progress (apparently).

To sum up what this VAT stuff means, no test patches or updates until sometime in 2015. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

I have more games than I can play legaly almost for free, so, its not a problem Steam&Origin sales be blessed . After this, 2015 seems fine to me.

Quote from Stölzel :

Wow... "Westhill Progress (November) Thread and then such Big Off-Topics... Wow... Why you "Scawen" dont delete this Posts and your Posts too? Oh man...

If it's posted by the Dev, then comments on his post are not off topic !

If the EU/British Govt want to put a monkey wrench into LFS Dev, then that can be discussed here.

FYI, if you also want NZ citizenship, then that's buyable as well. If it speeds up LFS Dev then just let me know if you want to go offshore.

We have the best mountain biking in the world too !!!!!!!!
And that's just a bonus with buying NZ citizenship. Golly Gosh, we even provide ISIS with websites/mailbox's .........



Also, really cheap houses round here.....

http://www.trademe.co.nz/property/residential-property-for-sale/auction-813570204.htm

Less than Pound Symbol 70,000.
Also, it's overpriced and you could buy it for pound symbol 60,000 easily !
2.5 hours to Wellington, 2 Hours to NZ's best skiing, 1.5 hours to NZ's best surfing, 5 Hours to Auckland, Plus, friendly locals, great weather, and not dealing with the EU !

We also have local Fibre or VDSL, and even our ADSL is more than fast enough for doing business overseas.

ah ah lol. While it is not ending to propose the creation of a holding owning LFS, located in Panama, which the boss is a pet, etc... . It would be better to not see ScaViEr as famous as Madoff

Quote from Racer X NZ :

A simple solution, base your 'office' offshore. As an example, register your company in NZ, it's easy to register here even if the owners are based offshore.

You pay NZ GST on internal sales, any foreign buyers are exempt GST.

Although obviously we won't be moving to NZ (though it sounds a very nice place) I thought I would reply to your post...

It's interesting that you should mention that way to avoid EU VAT. It's not the case any more!

Businesses in non-EU countries selling digital goods to people in the EU will now have to charge VAT and pay it to the governments in question, just as we have to from 1st January.

It's a big change I have been talking about here. For many of you, the first time you have heard about it was here (and we only knew a couple of weeks ago). But it will not be the last time you hear about it!

The plan is to extend this EU VAT thing to all goods in future, and not limit it to digital services...

Quote from Scawen :

We want to get on with other things

What kind of other things? New car maybe? Or track?

Quote from HenkkaWRC :

Quote from Scawen :

We want to get on with other things

What kind of other things? New car maybe? Or track?

https://www.lfsshop.com/

I guess that modelising a 430, a Gallardo and a FZ5T are good challenges

Not according to what I've read. If it's a private purchase then up to Pound symbol 22 is exempt. Goods up to Pound symbol 150 can be imported with no charge but must have a declaration of value.
http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/vat-customs/cross-border/index_en.htm

Therefore, if your based outside the EU and selling software online, there's nothing to worry about.

Mind you, business in the EU sounds like a joke !.
If you sell goods and send them to consumers in another EU country, you need to register there and charge VAT at the rate applicable in that country - unless the total value of your sales to that country in the year falls below the limit set by the country (EUR 35 000 or EUR 100 000).

Although, wouldn't most small businesses come under the country cap ?
I don't know how much money LFS brings in but I'd expect you'd come in under that in most countries.

That's based on being a business owner here, and we've certainly not been advised about any changes with dealing with the EU.
As far as our IRD is concerned, VAT is only payable on import to the EU, and only if required. No change to past practice.

Quote from Scawen :

Quote from Racer X NZ :

A simple solution, base your 'office' offshore. As an example, register your company in NZ, it's easy to register here even if the owners are based offshore.

You pay NZ GST on internal sales, any foreign buyers are exempt GST.

Although obviously we won't be moving to NZ (though it sounds a very nice place) I thought I would reply to your post...

It's interesting that you should mention that way to avoid EU VAT. It's not the case any more!

Businesses in non-EU countries selling digital goods to people in the EU will now have to charge VAT and pay it to the governments in question, just as we have to from 1st January.

It's a big change I have been talking about here. For many of you, the first time you have heard about it was here (and we only knew a couple of weeks ago). But it will not be the last time you hear about it!

The plan is to extend this EU VAT thing to all goods in future, and not limit it to digital services...

Quite similar to what has slowly been happening here in the USA...state governments and brick and mortar businesses are crying because places like Amazon and other e-retailers don't have to charge sales tax, which hurts governments because they don't get that revenue, and brick & mortar businesses have to charge it so people skip buying things in person to avoid paying sales tax. I know iRacing charges local sales tax, and some other online shops are doing the same voluntarily. I know state legislatures in many states are pondering laws to require online businesses to charge sales tax at the rate of the buyer.

Best of luck to you in sorting out the necessary steps to take care of this silly business! Yay outdated tax codes! \o/

I agree with some of the above, namely, 'brick and mortar businesses are crying because places like Amazon and other e-retailers don't have to charge sales tax,'

Now, if they are based in the EU, or the US of A then they should pay VAT, or other tax's. Also, if your based outside of the EU, or US of A and are exporting physical goods to these regions, then VAT or whatever is payable at the border.

Where these systems fall down is in the area of virtual goods, or intellectual licencing.

Most EULA's do not sell you ownership of the goods you purchase. They simply sell you a licence to use these goods in exactly the form provided and any modification of these goods is explicitly denied.

This is in no way the same as actually selling a physical object and therefore should be, and is treated differently under tax law.

If you import a physical object that you have ownership of then you pay VAT ( or whatever ) If you only own the rights to use a program then you actually own no physical object, only the right to use said object within the terms of the EULA.

If you run a business, then any such charges are a business expense and therefore written off your tax obligations.

If you are a private individual, then any VAT payable on the original purchase value up to Pound Symbol 150 is not payable, it's exempt.

I'm really not seeing an issue for the individual, and for businesses all EU countries have a business limit of either 35,000 or 100,000 thousand EU's per country beneath which VAT does not need to be paid per country.

If you earn over that, per EU country, you can afford an accountant to sort it out !

Based on your earlier post of LFS (You guys) deregistering from VAT, I'm not sure that that's the right choice. Based on NZ company experience, being able to write off GST (our VAT) is a major advantage. Like new PC, tax right off, new Rift, tax right off, new Mountainbike, tax right off (Be creative here!, Company vehicle ?) business premises (Kitchen), tax right off, Plumbing, etc, etc, etc.......
And, based on what I've posted on your tax rules (similar to The Shire), if your not making enough to be VAT registered then RELEASE S3 ! (Subtile dig )

Cus, when you do, based on Rift, and the looney base here, you'll make more than enough to run as a co.

Source, a number of people I know here making indecent monies off iOS app's, PC Programs, Web Design, Music, and cat videos .........

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Although, wouldn't most small businesses come under the country cap ?
I don't know how much money LFS brings in but I'd expect you'd come in under that in most countries.

That's based on being a business owner here, and we've certainly not been advised about any changes with dealing with the EU.

No, you are looking at goods.

It's entirely different for digital services, aka electronic services, under the new rules from 1st January.
https://www.gov.uk/register-and-use-the-vat-mini-one-stop-shop

The VAT threshold only applies to your own country, but there is no threshold when selling digital services to customers in other EU countries. For example we will not have to pay UK VAT as we will be very far below the limit, but will have to pay VAT to all EU countries because there is no limit. We will use the stupidly named "Mini One Stop Shop" to simplify this (so we don't need register in each country, but still need to account for sales to each country).

Anyway, you wouldn't have been informed. We were not informed at all. We read everything that we are sent, but we were never told about this change, although we were VAT registered. The government here expect you to spend your days reading all the government websites over and over again in case there is a change. They really are that stupid.

After i saw this:


i was wondering how many Tire-simulations LFS will have in S3

Here is a full free accessible version of the Tire development.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gfq0zn7xrwd2cof/Project%20CARS%20-%20Handling%20Consultants%20Feedback.pdf?dl=0