Quote from dadge :

It highlights that on this occasion, Hamilton literally came out on top (of buttons car). He went for an ever closing gap and wrote his car off. it was the end of his race.

I'm not going into that again...

why not lol? it's in relation to what you were talking about.

I wasn't trolling dude. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I just wanted to know why yours was so different from everybody elses. I think Button and Hamilton are just as good as each other. Button is better with the tyres and pit strategy. Hamilton is faster during a race but more prone to accidents (because he pushes so hard).
Everyone who has a blog is saying MSC was pushing the boundaries. Nobody is saying he actually crossed the line. Yes he was treading on thin ice but if you don't push the boundaries, then what is the point in racing?
There's a saying in football about the perfect winger; "Chalk on his boots". It means that the winger is always stretching the defenders and pushing the line forward. i think the same can be said about good racing drivers. They take their cars to the edge and then push a bit more. If they didn't then anybody could enter the F1 championship. That's what separates them from us.

Again, I wasn't trolling you.

Bitch!

I think Lewis is driving like he's always driven just with less confidence because everyone is on his back all the time, coupled with Button getting lucky a few times and everyone saying he's the best strategist, tyre saver, yet he's not proved any of it, he's not lasted longer on a set of tyres than Lewis to make a difference and most of his stratergy calls were imo made by the strategists in the team. Everytime he's gone onto slicks before everyone else is i admit partly due to his feel for the conditions but mostly because he had nothing to lose, if he was in P1 when it started drying out i doubt he'd be first into the pits for a set of slicks.

I actually like Button as a person, he's a really likeable guy i think it's just reading the bullshit people spout about him is unbearable and it's got to the point where i'd rather Alonso or Vettel win than him just so i don't have to read it. I get why alot of people like him, it's because they can relate to making tyre calls etc but with Hamilton it's all natural and instinct which some can't relate to. People on here and other places talk absolute bollocks about Lewis all the time but no one will put their money against him, Jenson has a 10 point lead over Lewis and in amazing form yet has worse odds than Lewis to win the championship... Doesn't that tell you something? Like i've said In the Last few races he has impressed me but a little bit of luck has still been thrown his way that he's taken credit for.

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/14883755.stm

Martin speaks the truth. End of.

Quote from BlueFlame :

Martin speaks the truth. End of.

Especially this part, summed up my feelings exactly, far better than I ever could.

Quote from Martin :

Did we see a consistency of application of driving standards rules? No.
Have drivers been penalised for less than Schumacher did? Yes.
Has Hamilton been punished for less? Yes.
I thought Hamilton handled the post-race interviews very maturely.
With the information I have would I have penalised Schumacher in the race? No, we need quality racing and it's meant to be tough out there, but a reprimand may have been appropriate.
I stand by what I said in commentary - Schumacher was placing his car very well, but his secondary defensive moves were pushing the limits to the absolute extreme and he was lucky to get away with it.

Quote from RiseAgainstMe! :

Especially this part, summed up my feelings exactly, far better than I ever could.

he was pushing the limits to the extreme. but he crossed no line (except the finish line). it's not MSC's fault that the stewards are not consistent.

I think the stewards have been dishing out too many penalties this year, I prefer them to give out warnings. My heart always sinks when I see that little modal-box pop up to say drivers are being investigated. If you want drivers to race wheel-to-wheel then you will inevitably get contact, you cannot have it both ways.

Quote from DarkTimes :

I think the stewards have been dishing out too many penalties this year, I prefer them to give out warnings. My heart always sinks when I see that little modal-box pop up to say drivers are being investigated. If you want drivers to race wheel-to-wheel then you will inevitably get contact, you cannot have it both ways.

QFT. 100% it's not a knitting contest.

Quote from dadge :

he was pushing the limits to the extreme. but he crossed no line (except the finish line). it's not MSC's fault that the stewards are not consistent.

I thought he crossed the line once, just enough to maybe recieve a reprimand, but definitely not a drive through. If he had kept double moving like that, I would have wanted a penalty, but I certainly don't think that that one move was enough to warrrant a drive through. Hard racing, no harm, no foul. So uhh yeah, I think we mostly agree?

Same for Alonso squeezing Vettel wide, except I don't even think that was enough to consider a reprimand, but it was very tough defending (and coincidentally, a superb pass). And Webber-Massa was a racing incident, nothing more.

Too many stupid and needless and inconsistent penalties this year. I think this is the first weekend of the year I've actually not really had a complaint for the stewards, unless there was an incident I'm not remembering. Should use this weekend as a future benchmark of reasonable application of the rules. Unecessary contact has been interpreted some very silly ways this season.

Quote from DarkTimes :

I think the stewards have been dishing out too many penalties this year, I prefer them to give out warnings. My heart always sinks when I see that little modal-box pop up to say drivers are being investigated. If you want drivers to race wheel-to-wheel then you will inevitably get contact, you cannot have it both ways.

Zing, hence why Lewis' penalty in Malaysia surprised a lot of people. Still don't see what he did wrong there.

In the Italian Grand Prix, you either penalize Alonso and Schumacher or neither at all. I don't want F1 to become like Indycar and penalize blocking. I grew up watching hard racing, and I hate the fact that blocking might no longer be a skill thats appreciated in f1. I can accept the 1 move rule to a degree, but to then not allow a move back onto the racing line is simply stupid. If a defence has been completed you should be allowed to take a decent line for the next corner, simple as. I can understand the DRS shite, but simply the FIA has the DRS in too long a position for it to work as it should do, to aid potential overtaking, and not allow pure blasting past. In fact, the pure example I can think of involves Schumacher, in Canada, where it made no difference what he did to protect his more than deserved podium, the slow as hell most of the race Webber, still overtook because his car was quicker in the dry.

I loved watching Schumacher and Hamilton, because whether that pathetic excuse for a Senna fan Lewis accepts it or now, it was what I grew up watching. Two very good racers fighting for a position. Far better than blasting past someone.


Another thing I feel is that Schumacher was always going to put the moves on Lewis when he had the chance. I think he must feel Lewis is a mentally weak driver, and possibly someone he marked out when Lewis made heavy weather of beating Massa to the 08 title. In 08 Michael said their would be some interesting battles, and I think we are seeing it. If Mercedes had a good car I think Michael could be right up there again. There is something that has changed since Canada, it is almost as though he believes it himself after the hammering he took in 2010, especially after the Hungary thing. 2012 will be very interesting, as the one person I'd hate to be going up against race in race out is Michael Schumacher. Especially at 43 bloody years old. It all depends on Mercedes I suppose.

In fact, I'd love to see Kimi Raikkonen come back, if only to ensure that Schumacher's comeback isn't as bad as people seem to believe.

Quote from dadge :

he was pushing the limits to the extreme. but he crossed no line (except the finish line). it's not MSC's fault that the stewards are not consistent.

I'm gonna call bull shit on this, MSC was way over the line. Although I'll admit I hope I understand the rule correctly... The rule is 1 move left or right to defend your position yes?
So why, before every single braking zone, did MSC move all the way to inside of the track (his one and only move he is allowed), then just before/on the braking zone move all the way back to the outside of the track? I'm pretty sure that's called move #2.
(not aiming this at you spercifically dadge ) You can all moan and spout shit like "ohh but lewis wasn't there, so it's k".. That isn't the point of the rule though is it? I really don't think MSC would have changed what he was doing whether Lewis had a front wing/wheel on the outside like he so nearly did at many corners. I'm pretty sure if Lewis had been just as aggressive as he usually was he wouldn't of hesitated to have been on the outside..

Off the point, does the F1 forum go up anywhere to watch? Or is there anywhere I can download it ?

Quote from RiseAgainstMe! :

I thought he crossed the line once, just enough to maybe recieve a reprimand, but definitely not a drive through. If he had kept double moving like that, I would have wanted a penalty, but I certainly don't think that that one move was enough to warrrant a drive through. Hard racing, no harm, no foul. So uhh yeah, I think we mostly agree?

Same for Alonso squeezing Vettel wide, except I don't even think that was enough to consider a reprimand, but it was very tough defending (and coincidentally, a superb pass). And Webber-Massa was a racing incident, nothing more.

Too many stupid and needless and inconsistent penalties this year. I think this is the first weekend of the year I've actually not really had a complaint for the stewards, unless there was an incident I'm not remembering. Should use this weekend as a future benchmark of reasonable application of the rules. Unecessary contact has been interpreted some very silly ways this season.

i think because lewis got a penalty in a previous race for doing less, then anything after that should be punishable. but that defending lewis got the pen for was a nothing incident. so for me, the yard stick was wrong in the first place.

Quote from Seb66 :

I'm gonna call bull shit on this, MSC was way over the line. Although I'll admit I hope I understand the rule correctly... The rule is 1 move left or right to defend your position yes?
So why, before every single braking zone, did MSC move all the way to inside of the track (his one and only move he is allowed), then just before/on the braking zone move all the way back to the outside of the track? I'm pretty sure that's called move #2.

the slight kink in that straight could be considered a turn. i think that's where the grey area is. because if that's the case then it would always look like 2 defensive moves. rule "agreement" is that a driver should not weave in the braking zones and that he can only make one defensive move per straight. but if that kink is considered a corner then MSC was allowed 2 defensive moves before the chicane. that's how i understood it. i could be completely wrong though.

Quote from spiderbait90 :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/e ... Italian_Grand_Prix_Forum/

Thanks

Quote from dadge :

i think because lewis got a penalty in a previous race for doing less, then anything after that should be punishable. but that defending lewis got the pen for was a nothing incident. so for me, the yard stick was wrong in the first place.

the slight kink in that straight could be considered a turn. i think that's where the grey area is. because if that's the case then it would always look like 2 defensive moves. rule "agreement" is that a driver should not weave in the braking zones and that he can only make one defensive move per straight. but if that kink is considered a corner then MSC was allowed 2 defensive moves before the chicane. that's how i understood it. i could be completely wrong though.

Well if you were to weave about in the middle of a corner, it's still classed as blocking. So straight or no straight, it's irrelevant.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia- ... EGULATIONS_30-06-2011.pdf

20.2
"Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as more than one change of direction to defend a position..."

He moved once to block Hamilton and then moved back to line up for the next corner. So he changed his direction once to defend his position and a second time to line himself up for the next corner.

Now blame the stewards for double standards, but in this case they did the right decision. Not only the right decision regulation wise, but also the right decision for the sport itself.

^ this is true. The initial move to block is considered a "defensive move", but moving back over to taking the racing line is not - drivers are well within their rights to do that. Moving over to block and then back to the racing line is one move, not two. It's blocking twice that's not allowed, but Schumacher never did that - he was within the regulations. Where he could have been in trouble was if he moved back over to the racing line when Lewis was alongside him, hence Ross Brawn telling him to remember to leave room. But he always left just enough room - it was a fantastic piece of defensive driving, but helped by the track being pretty easy to defend on, especially if you have a straightline speed advantage.

Quote from pipa :

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia- ... EGULATIONS_30-06-2011.pdf

20.2
"Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as more than one change of direction to defend a position..."

He moved once to block Hamilton and then moved back to line up for the next corner. So he changed his direction once to defend his position and a second time to line himself up for the next corner.

Now blame the stewards for double standards, but in this case they did the right decision. Not only the right decision regulation wise, but also the right decision for the sport itself.

Lining up to take the corner is still a 'defensive' move. He wants to maximise the corner to defend his position.

Strictly by the rule book Schumiacher was in the wrong, not that I personally would have done him for it.

So what you're saying is.. it's never two moves unless the driver on the outside gets taken out?

@mythdat and Pipa

Quote from Intrepid :

Lining up to take the corner is still a 'defensive' move. He wants to maximise the corner to defend his position.

Strictly by the rule book Schumiacher was in the wrong, not that I personally would have done him for it.

I think if you guys are going to quote the rule then you should quote it in it's entirety :

"20.2 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as more than one change of direction to defend a position,
deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are
not permitted."

I think the "abnormal change of direction" is the pertinent part as it completely changes the "spirit" of the rule. I believe that it would be hard to argue that "taking the racing line" should be considered an "abnormal change of direction" as it's a given that any driver will always do so if they find themselves somewhere else on the track. To that end I don't believe MSC was outside the "spirit" of that particular rule for his move across track. On other occasions he clearly did squeeze Hamilton however and I think that is what the radio transmissions were all about.

Srsly, all it means that if you defend the inside line, you can come back toward the outside in order to take a corner as long as there is a car's width of space left for the attacking car. If you move so far back to the outside that the outside 'line' is blocked, you blocked twice and will burn in righteous fire for all eternity.