The online racing simulator
[OLD] Tyre Physics Progress Report
(4436 posts, closed, started )
#351 - Dac
I think the problem a lot of LFS'ers have is that they want to believe it makes them that much of a better driver.
#352 - col
Quote from Dac :I think the problem a lot of LFS'ers have is that they want to believe it makes them that much of a better driver.

Reading the discussion so far, the anecdotal (and some factual) evidence points to them being correct and you being wrong!
So you need to bring some evidence to the table.

Personally, I've had a few 'LFS moments' while driving myself, A couple of times I have hit unexpected ice and immediately gone into LFS mode, instinctively correcting the slide and regaining control. When that has happened it gives me strong and clear recollection of the game. It has twice saved me from badly kerbing my car.
It is a shame that it feels more like LFS when on ice... but I reckon that's because that is the only time I get near the limit driving on public roads.

Nobody is suggesting that LFS will turn you into a great driver, but there is plenty of evidence to support the idea that some of the skills learned in the game are transferable to real driving (race or road).

Col
Quote from Dac :What you have just said is "bollocks" actually, if you were karting way before you started playing LFS then it's completely different to what I said in my post was it!

And how is that, you claim that LFS doesn't make you faster, in my post I said I was ok before I found LFS, then once i'd been playing LFS for a while I was much faster in karts.

And yea, comparing CoD to a racing simulator is wise as hell, do people in the army use a mouse and keyboard to run around, do they allways sit still? No, but with racing simulators we have wheels and pedals, the only thing most of us are without G forces and cockpits.

Sounds to me like your going down the bitter route of believing your a great driver IRL but you suck at LFS, because seriously, how do you know if being fast in LFS can make you faster in real life if your not even fast yourself?

Seriously theres lots of people who go from LFS and jump into real cars, Norbi, [Duck] and Vale (I think thats him) who just got signed up to be a F1 test driver, ask anyone of the people who drive IRL if LFS helps or not.

Btw, your theory of having uber high mileage to be fast is quite flawed, sure i've done massive amounts of mileage on LFS, but i'm just getting into iRacing and pretty much straight away i'm going faster than people who've had the game from the start. RamboJorgen came from another sim, GP Legends I think, he was great on that and as soon as he joined LFS he was racing against the best drivers in LFS.
Agree with bawbag.

Vale is a good example btw. He is test driver now for Williams.

Also i can learn a bit from LFS. For example being focusses for an hour during a MoE stint. Practicing that will also help you focus in real life. Practicing race lines will also help you finding those lines faster in real life.

Lfs doesnt come close really, because of tyre physics etc etc and the miss of Gforce. But you can deffo learn something from it and use that IRL
Yea, I forgot to mention Nick in my post, again someone else rather new to LFS who drives IRL, look at the speed he has without the "uber high mileage".
LFS helped me massively with car control, race craft, reducing the amount of mental time I had to devote to driving, coping with pressure (wither applying pressure to a car in front, keeping a quicker car behind, leading a race, or having to come through the field due to a silly mistake or a car problem), setting up the car...

Yes, I'd done a bit of arrive-and-drive karting before (mostly when I was about 10 - 14), and I'd done a few track days, but the vast majority of my learning was done on sims (from F1GP through to LFS), most of which was LFS.
I was driving sims before I first started karting. It definitely helped, but I still had to learn everything - it just made the learning process a bit faster, because I already knew what countersteer, understeer and oversteer was, the basic concepts of grip and apexes, etc. But it definitely didn't stop me from going "woah, that's fast" and backing off the first time I went down the straight at 60.

At this point in time, after 2 years of instruction from a team of coaches, simulators hold very little value for me in terms of learning things. They keep my skills from degrading too much during the off season, and iRacing will help me to learn new tracks, but other than that I would rather have 10 laps of real track time than 100 laps of a virtual track, heck maybe even 1,000 laps. In terms of learning setups, the changes I will be making in real life will be too fine to feel in a sim, the range of limit in real life is too narrow to consistently hit in a sim without the G forces, and the racing is too close in real life to be able to keep it clean in the sim with the lack of situational awareness that you have on the computer.

For the record, I'm quite fast in real life (check my videos), just as fast as my coaches, hand-picked by Jim Russell, and when I went to do a high performance course in road cars at Skip Barber the instructors there were highly impressed, but in sims I've never been able to get that 'nth degree out of the car, so no, I don't believe that skill is transferable. You can learn things about the virtual world from racing in real life, and you can learn some things that you would learn in real life with virtual track time, but being fast in real life and being fast in a simulator is about as related as being fast in a NASCAR stock car and being fast in a Formula car. Some people are naturally gifted at both, most people are good at one and not so good at the other. Look at many of the professionals who use iRacing - some are very good, yes, but some are quite mediocre or even bad.
#358 - Dac
Quote from col :Reading the discussion so far, the anecdotal (and some factual) evidence points to them being correct and you being wrong!
So you need to bring some evidence to the table.

Personally, I've had a few 'LFS moments' while driving myself, A couple of times I have hit unexpected ice and immediately gone into LFS mode, instinctively correcting the slide and regaining control. When that has happened it gives me strong and clear recollection of the game. It has twice saved me from badly kerbing my car.
It is a shame that it feels more like LFS when on ice... but I reckon that's because that is the only time I get near the limit driving on public roads.

Nobody is suggesting that LFS will turn you into a great driver, but there is plenty of evidence to support the idea that some of the skills learned in the game are transferable to real driving (race or road).

Col

Quote from Bawbag :And how is that, you claim that LFS doesn't make you faster, in my post I said I was ok before I found LFS, then once i'd been playing LFS for a while I was much faster in karts.

And yea, comparing CoD to a racing simulator is wise as hell, do people in the army use a mouse and keyboard to run around, do they allways sit still? No, but with racing simulators we have wheels and pedals, the only thing most of us are without G forces and cockpits.

Sounds to me like your going down the bitter route of believing your a great driver IRL but you suck at LFS, because seriously, how do you know if being fast in LFS can make you faster in real life if your not even fast yourself?

Seriously theres lots of people who go from LFS and jump into real cars, Norbi, [Duck] and Vale (I think thats him) who just got signed up to be a F1 test driver, ask anyone of the people who drive IRL if LFS helps or not.

Btw, your theory of having uber high mileage to be fast is quite flawed, sure i've done massive amounts of mileage on LFS, but i'm just getting into iRacing and pretty much straight away i'm going faster than people who've had the game from the start. RamboJorgen came from another sim, GP Legends I think, he was great on that and as soon as he joined LFS he was racing against the best drivers in LFS.

Quote from NickC :Agree with bawbag.

Vale is a good example btw. He is test driver now for Williams.

Also i can learn a bit from LFS. For example being focusses for an hour during a MoE stint. Practicing that will also help you focus in real life. Practicing race lines will also help you finding those lines faster in real life.

Lfs doesnt come close really, because of tyre physics etc etc and the miss of Gforce. But you can deffo learn something from it and use that IRL

Quote from Bawbag :Yea, I forgot to mention Nick in my post, again someone else rather new to LFS who drives IRL, look at the speed he has without the "uber high mileage".

Quote from tristancliffe :LFS helped me massively with car control, race craft, reducing the amount of mental time I had to devote to driving, coping with pressure (wither applying pressure to a car in front, keeping a quicker car behind, leading a race, or having to come through the field due to a silly mistake or a car problem), setting up the car...

Yes, I'd done a bit of arrive-and-drive karting before (mostly when I was about 10 - 14), and I'd done a few track days, but the vast majority of my learning was done on sims (from F1GP through to LFS), most of which was LFS.

Quote from MadCat360 :I was driving sims before I first started karting. It definitely helped, but I still had to learn everything - it just made the learning process a bit faster, because I already knew what countersteer, understeer and oversteer was, the basic concepts of grip and apexes, etc. But it definitely didn't stop me from going "woah, that's fast" and backing off the first time I went down the straight at 60.

At this point in time, after 2 years of instruction from a team of coaches, simulators hold very little value for me in terms of learning things. They keep my skills from degrading too much during the off season, and iRacing will help me to learn new tracks, but other than that I would rather have 10 laps of real track time than 100 laps of a virtual track, heck maybe even 1,000 laps. In terms of learning setups, the changes I will be making in real life will be too fine to feel in a sim, the range of limit in real life is too narrow to consistently hit in a sim without the G forces, and the racing is too close in real life to be able to keep it clean in the sim with the lack of situational awareness that you have on the computer.

For the record, I'm quite fast in real life (check my videos), just as fast as my coaches, hand-picked by Jim Russell, and when I went to do a high performance course in road cars at Skip Barber the instructors there were highly impressed, but in sims I've never been able to get that 'nth degree out of the car, so no, I don't believe that skill is transferable. You can learn things about the virtual world from racing in real life, and you can learn some things that you would learn in real life with virtual track time, but being fast in real life and being fast in a simulator is about as related as being fast in a NASCAR stock car and being fast in a Formula car. Some people are naturally gifted at both, most people are good at one and not so good at the other. Look at many of the professionals who use iRacing - some are very good, yes, but some are quite mediocre or even bad.

All supporting my argument. LFS will not make you Michael Schumacher, but it will teach you what he knows. It's putting it into practice that will make you fast in RL. I think a lot of proof reading is necessary here before people start shouting their mouths off about their understanding of other peoples arguments
Quote from Dac :All supporting my argument. LFS will not make you Michael Schumacher, but it will teach you what he knows. It's putting it into practice that will make you fast in RL. I think a lot of proof reading is necessary here before people start shouting their mouths off about their understanding of other peoples arguments

exactly, no-one is saying we will be as good as him, but that knowledge will make us quicker than we were.
Quote from Dac :All supporting my argument. LFS will not make you Michael Schumacher, but it will teach you what he knows. It's putting it into practice that will make you fast in RL. I think a lot of proof reading is necessary here before people start shouting their mouths off about their understanding of other peoples arguments

That's just fantastic but if that's your argument then your arguing with yourself, no one said LFS would make you Michael Schumacher.
Quote from Dac :All supporting my argument. LFS will not make you Michael Schumacher, but it will teach you what he knows. It's putting it into practice that will make you fast in RL. I think a lot of proof reading is necessary here before people start shouting their mouths off about their understanding of other peoples arguments

Huh? LFS has helped me in almost every aspect of my racing to be better than I would have been without it. Even if you gave me £50,000,000 and any racing car I wanted I'd never become as good as Schumacher, so I don't know what lameass argument you're trying to continue.

If LFS (or iRacing, or rFactor (okay, not the car control part in rFactor), or Grand Prix 4 or netKar or...) hasn't made you better then you're either really good to start with (i.e. you'll probably in a decent level FIA championship in 2010), or you're an idiot.
I started racing in LFS about 4 years ago, before this I had never raced in another simulator, kart or any sort of car. The first time I went to race in karts with some LFS friends I only had one year of LFS experience, by that time I was quite slow on LFS and I was horrible at karts, I was slower than most of the rest of the grid.

Three years later I've become a decent LFS racer with a pace within .5-7 of WRs in some cars, when I wen't karting last year I was .58 from the track record in just about 30 minutes of track time.

I believe that my improvement on LFS eventually translated to real life, I wasn't super fast on the first few laps but after I figured out the tyre grip I started to feel confident the lap times started to fall.
#363 - Dac
What is the point, seriously. It's a ****ing metaphor! I give up, there seems to be a heck of a lot of arrogant argumentative teenagers that haven't even passed GCSE English yet.
Then it was a failed metaphor. Anyone above is stating that proper sim experience helps in real world. No one said it makes you a real racing driver of any kind, instantly.
In many aspects it helps as theory classes would help you learning proper lines on paper. Also eye to hand-foot coordination and vehicle physics understanding are greatly benefited.
But apart from these there are a whole lot other aspects.
e.g
If you are able to know where exactly is each opponent around your car in a restrictive 3D environment, then you are definitely going to have increased environment awareness in a real track too. Not because you get the same experience, but because you know now, what you have to be aware of in order to avoid hitting anyone while being able to race him.
#365 - Dac
Quote from Bawbag :
Seriously theres lots of people who go from LFS and jump into real cars, Norbi, [Duck] and Vale (I think thats him) who just got signed up to be a F1 test driver, ask anyone of the people who drive IRL if LFS helps or not.

I knew this was too ridiculous to believe. Vale, the 2010 Williams test driver, so clearly one of the best drivers in the world, yes he is a member of LFS but his racing career started in 2001 and has been in a RL championship every year. To say he went from LFS into a real car is the most ludicrous statement i've heard so far. He is a RL racer not an LFS'er who got draught into Williams F1!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valtteri_Bottas

With these kind of stupid posts it's no wonder you made me angry.
#366 - Dac
Quote from kaynd :Then it was a failed metaphor. Anyone above is stating that proper sim experience helps in real world. No one said it makes you a real racing driver of any kind, instantly.
In many aspects it helps as theory classes would help you learning proper lines on paper. Also eye to hand-foot coordination and vehicle physics understanding are greatly benefited.
But apart from these there are a whole lot other aspects.
e.g
If you are able to know where exactly is each opponent around your car in a restrictive 3D environment, then you are definitely going to have increased environment awareness in a real track too. Not because you get the same experience, but because you know now, what you have to be aware of in order to avoid hitting anyone while being able to race him.

That's exactly what I am saying! LFS WILL help you become a better racer, but not because you get experience of handling a car but because it teaches you the dynamics of racing. That does not mean I am saying the physics are totally incomparable, I am saying they are not good enough (as of yet at least) for you to be able to be good at LFS and then jump out and be as good as if you had lots of RL experience. In order to be good in RL you need RL experience, but LFS will help you get there as a 'tool'. If what Bawbag et al were saying is correct, then I can easily punch out 30 laps around Blackwood in the BF1, do you think id have the same chance in a RL F1 car? Most certainly not. But would it help me? Sure would, as I know to be a lot more sensitive on the throttle
After defending LFS for such a long time, I am rather annoyed and starting to turn the other way... I'd really, really, REALLY appreciate some updates. LFS is starting to become indefensible.
Quote from Dac :I am saying they are not good enough (as of yet at least) for you to be able to be good at LFS and then jump out and be as good as if you had lots of RL experience.

No matter how good a phisics engine will be. It will never be the same as IRL... For obvius and mentioned many many times reasons that have to do with how human sesnes work mainly...

Quote from Dac :If what Bawbag et al were saying is correct, then I can easily punch out 30 laps around Blackwood in the BF1, do you think id have the same chance in a RL F1 car? Most certainly not. But would it help me? Sure would, as I know to be a lot more sensitive on the throttle

Now you are the one who doesn't know how to read...
Quote any sentence or any word from anyone above stating such a thing... this is plain ridiculous...

bawbag already said it... you are arguing with yourself.
#369 - col
Quote from Dac :I think the problem a lot of LFS'ers have is that they want to believe it makes them that much of a better driver.

Quote from Dac :What is the point, seriously. It's a ****ing metaphor! I give up, there seems to be a heck of a lot of arrogant argumentative teenagers that haven't even passed GCSE English yet.

LOL

(BTW, you really need to go and work on your use of metaphor - you're just not getting it together at the moment.)


Quote from Dac : If what Bawbag et al were saying is correct, then I can easily punch out 30 laps around Blackwood in the BF1, do you think id have the same chance in a RL F1 car? Most certainly not. But would it help me? Sure would, as I know to be a lot more sensitive on the throttle

Your LFS laps would provide knowledge that is true.
However, they would also help to develop the fine motor control in your right foot (and left foot for that matter), thereby improving your DRIVING SKILLS.

Over time, driving LFS (or similar), the percentage of your brain used to control your feet for the kind of movements used in DRIVING would be increased (improving precision and reaction). You would also develop your repertoire of applicable muscle memories.
These things definately come under the heading 'driving skills'. They can be improved using LFS and they are fully transferable to real world racing and road driving.
#370 - Dac
I'll let the LFS worshippers think what they want, your always going to have difficulty challenging LFS on an LFS forum.
If the VWS is ready why couldn't you release it and then release the new stuff in packs?
Quote from (The Stig) :If the VWS is ready why couldn't you release it and then release the new stuff in packs?

Dsfadfsa kljadslk fasfufd fdsamncvx dasox vci fda safdfasufdsa wer?
Quote from (The Stig) :If the VWS is ready why couldn't you release it and then release the new stuff in packs?

Because they want to realease the new physics with it so it feels like the real one.


The saddest part of this topic is that probably Scawen doesn't even read it.
No, the saddest part is the patch will never be done. What would it help the devs reading this topic?
This thread is closed

[OLD] Tyre Physics Progress Report
(4436 posts, closed, started )
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