Quote from kingcars :

Doesn't really matter to me, honestly. I've had me G25 for well over a month now and if anything, there's an extra satisfaction when you're leading the field using heel/toe technique and the h shifter.

I agree with you %100, I love using my full setup with my H gate etc. It is tons of fun, but not letting people racing because they don't have a clutch .. isn't cool.

What can I do with $200.. hm lets see, well I could last on Ramen noodles for over a year, I could buy a cold air intake for my car, on the subject of my car I could take a trip from my home in Georgia to San Francisco CA, and then to Vegas.. wow thats a lot of driving! That's over 2,100 miles (over 3,400km)
I could buy another netbook...
I could buy Windows 7 lol
I could buy 2 Blu Ray players
I could buy an Xbox360
I could buy an entire 5.1 Surround sound system
I could buy 5 demo racers an S2 license.. or spend that money and get me 4 or 5 brand new games for the Xbox I could've had
I could buy the monitor so I could play with forced cockpits and not complain
Want me to keep going?

I could get a multitude of lenses for my camera
I could get a camera just like mine (D40)
I could buy a big flash like I already have
I could buy a sub & box for my car

Instead.. I am saving my $200 and will [hopefully] spend it on a new ipod touch this year .. if and only if it is what I want.. seeing somehow.. someone.. threw my first gen ipod touch away (dont ask..)

$200 is a lot of money to just throw away when you're a college student from my point of view
Besides my 55-200 VR, SB600 and my Dell Mini 9, I hadn't spent more than $200 at a time for anything in my life.

One person can last $200 on money for food.. No not a family, but this is LFS, how many people here are having to support a family?
How many kids here are even old enough to have a job to MAKE $200?

It is a bad news for mouse\keybroad driver.....
I spend all my money to buy S2.......

Quote from scania :

It is a bad news for mouse\keybroad driver.....
I spend all my money to buy S2.......

Thank you.. proof from just one person.
How many people online have you seen that still use keyboard to drive?

I usually see a good 5 people playing with keyboard out of 30 people or so.
And that's a pretty good ratio considering those are racing servers that keep track of your every move.. isn't it?

That's 5 less people.. those 5 people using keyboard could be the people racing right next to you, meaning if you forced clutch, you would be all alone and wouldn't that be a boring race?

You just don't understand, do you? It's all about choice. If you can't understand that point there's no reason for trying to say what I've said before over and over again. Allow it as an option, let server admins and the public decide if it's a good idea or not.

No I understand what you're saying and I will say it again, the system will be abused during a break in period and will ruin the integrity of LFS.

It would be just another option to keep others from racing, that is all it would be doing.

Just as everyone realized with the force cockpit, the only good thing about it was the ping times because there were a lot less people on the server than there would be, making the races that less enjoyable.
Then someone had the bright idea saying hey.. why not give everyone a chance, and everyone wins.

Plus.. do you honestly think that auto clutch is much slower than using a real clutch in LFS?
I can tell you right now the differences are so little, the only reason why someone with a real clutch would be slower, would be if they had an H gate, and they missed it, and even then.. it's so little time difference it wouldn't change your laptime but by maybe a whole .1 seconds.

Well in This point I Support XCNuse, ´cause what he says is true, in my example, i got a Momo racing wheel, and I dont got any money for buy a clutch, with a lot of effort i got my way to get a ps2 over a year ago and i´ve only got like 5 games for it cuz the lack of money, my pc isn´t that new, only 512Mb RAM, 128VRAM, and a dual core 2.8, i run LFS quite a lot and i really like it as it is.

It´s deffinitively a really Bad Idea, ´cause I Know that I´m not the only one in this situation, a lot of people here ( the vast majority) doesn´t got a G25, an ACT Labs set or something with 3 pedals, and what about the case of the people that lives in a country where ACT labs or other PC/Simracing equipment Sellers cant export their products in? so that means that anybody in that country can play Lfs Anymore??, Why I Say this? Because this is a Mostly european community Sim, and the economy in Europe isn´t that bad, btw there´s people from other parts of the world that´s going on this too; ´Cause european economy isn´t that bad, in some time a lot of people will get a G25/A-like setup and bassicly because the introduction of this feature, the admins of most Servers will turn it on, and What About the other people without a set like that??? yes they could join annother server without it enabled, btw they will have to race alone because all the rest of the people is on those european servers with that thing On, because they think it´s more fair racing like that, and then the other people leave the game, and Lfs turns in an European hipocresy Sim, and nobody likes that...

So, taking Less words, If the depelovers Make that an Option in the Control Menu, it´s there for a reason, for that people that likes to:
Play the sim, maybe not much to afford a G25/A-like Set, but that plays the Sim;

For the people that plays it sometimes,

For the people that plays it with mouse (aka Begginers/People with a really bad economic situation),

For the people with Discapacities,

and I could still Going and Going, Btw Like I said before, Auto-Clutch is there for a Reason, And Would be a really bad Idea Blocking it, even if only 1 Server will run it, it´s Just Annother way of Racism, a Thing that We Have to Avoid, End of Disscusion, ITS A BAD IDEA.

PD: You dont have to get the best equipment to be very dedicated in something... it´s How Much You Like to do That Thing, Thats Dedication, not needing the Best equipment for it, btw doing the best you can with what you got, and without ANY Restricctions form Anybody else.

Adolfo Herrera.

Now.. why do I say it would make that little time difference?

With autoclutch right now you still have to let off the gas, in the same time you let off that gas, you could be shifting with a clutch and a gate shifter, but instead.. you're just letting off the gas.. meaning the only thing changed between two people, is one person has the fun of managing a clutch pedal and a gate shifter, while the other person doesn't get to have as much fun.

There IS no difference in autoclutch vs real clutch except the motions. That is it.
That hasn't always been the case, but it has been the case since this year.

Quote from scania :

I spend all my money to buy S2.......

How much per month for your internet connection and the electric bill?

Mr. Nuse, here in Austria:
200$ would buy you 137 litres of diesel at best, diesel being the cheapest fuel currently available. That's no more than 1800km realistically.
You couldn't buy a netbook for 145€, at least I do not know of such a cheap one.
You could buy Win7 Home Premium, probably Professional, but certainly not Ultimate.
You could buy a good bluray drive for you computer, or two cheap ones.
You couldn't even buy an XBOX360 Arcade.
The D40 is 420$ (299€) here including the 18-55 kit lens.

Perhaps you can understand now why I think the G25 is cheap, it's because it is. Here at least.

Excuse me I was wrong, the G25 in the US from logitech.com costs $300, not $200
that is WAY more than I would ever spend on something for a computer, I won't even spend that much on a new graphics card for my laptop no matter how much I want it.

You can buy a laptop for that price.
I spent $169 on my Dell Mini 9

That's strange.. Logitech.com for Britain, it costs $450 USD (279 GBP) for a G25

The G25 by no means is cheap.
I have yet to spend $300 at one time for anything in my life.

Quote from ADOLF1612 :

For the people that plays it sometimes

Casual gamers, who are unlikely to be competetive in a race of dedicated sim racers anyway.

Quote from ADOLF1612 :

For the people that plays it with mouse (aka Begginers/People with a really bad economic situation),

You'll be a beginner again once you get the wheel, it'll be completely different. As for the bad economic situation, again: internet but no way to save a bit on a wheel?

Quote from ADOLF1612 :

For the people with Discapacities

If you read back, I added an exception for disabled people.

Quote from ADOLF1612 :

and I could still Going and Going, Btw Like I said before, Auto-Clutch is there for a Reason, And Would be a really bad Idea Blocking it, even if only 1 Server will run it, it´s Just Annother way of Racism, a Thing that We Have to Avoid, End of Disscusion, ITS A BAD IDEA.

It's discrimination, but certainly not a racial issue. Discrimination is not always a bad thing, we don't have to avoid it. Keeping casual gamers out of a serious racing environment is like keeping sex offenders away from kids. Quite exaggerated analogy I know, but it's 6:23 am and I'm still up and couldn't think of anything else, I'm not saying casual gamers are sex offenders or sim racers are kids, hope you get my point

Quote from XCNuse :

That's strange.. Logitech.com for Britain, it costs $450 USD (279 GBP) for a G25.

It's 187€ where I bought mine, I paid 220€ back then.

Quote from XCNuse :

I have yet to spend $300 at one time for anything in my life.

That's very hard to believe, very very hard...

Well I'm telling you I haven't.

I personally.. that's why I said I haven't.

My father has.. but I have not spent that much money before in my life.

lol go to sleep already

Quote from XCNuse :

No I understand what you're saying and I will say it again, the system will be abused during a break in period and will ruin the integrity of LFS.

How will "the integrity" of LFS be ruined? The introduction of a server side option that means anyone who races on that server must use a more authentic controller configuration? I really don't understand how that could ruin what the devs are trying to achieve with LFS because it would be increasing realism.

Quote from XCNuse :

Just as everyone realized with the force cockpit, the only good thing about it was the ping times because there were a lot less people on the server than there would be, making the races that less enjoyable.

I don't remember there being a big drop off of people around the time the FCV option was introduced.

Quote from XCNuse :

Then someone had the bright idea saying hey.. why not give everyone a chance, and everyone wins.

Couldn't the masses of people who apparently didn't want to drive with FCV go and race on their own servers? That way you have 2 distinct groups of people each of whom is happier than if you force 2 groups who have different ideas and desires together. If, tomorrow, you introduced a system where you could force only wheel users on your server there would be 2 camps: those who had wheels and those who didn't. In each of those groups there would be people who thought the option was a good idea. The people who thought the option was a bad idea would still race against each other on unrestricted servers. The people who had wheels and thought it was a good idea would race against each other on limited servers. The people who didn't have wheels and thought it was a good idea would race with the people who didn't think it was a good idea until they could afford a wheel. In this situation people would be happier. I have had a few times where I've been racing against someone using keys online and they've been warping so badly (a combination of a bit of lag and the key's digital input) that they've been taking up literally half the track and been impossible to pass. I would be happier if I didn't have to race against that sort of person (a keyboard user), unless I chose to.

Quote from XCNuse :

Plus.. do you honestly think that auto clutch is much slower than using a real clutch in LFS?
I can tell you right now the differences are so little, the only reason why someone with a real clutch would be slower, would be if they had an H gate, and they missed it, and even then.. it's so little time difference it wouldn't change your laptime but by maybe a whole .1 seconds.

Using a manual clutch and h shifter is definitely slower than using auto clutch plus paddles/sequential shifter and it's more prone to mistakes. With manual clutch and shifter it's possible to miss gears (which definitely costs more than 0.1 secs...), to wrong slot (which either loses a lot of time or puts 12,000 rpm on your engine and you lose a lot of power (which costs you more than 0.1 secs per lap...). The process of gear changing will generally take longer (a good driver might be able to shift as quickly or slightly quicker with manual, but keeping it up over a reasonable race distance without making mistakes is doubtful). Also, the process of braking and synchronising downshifts (throttle blip/heel and toe) is more difficult because you're having to manage 3 pedals. The act of heel and toe will change the amount of brake pressure you're using which will lead to sub-optimal braking performance at best and locked/flatspotted/hotspotted tyres is more likely. What I mean by that is that when you're using auto clutch and sequential you can keep one foot on the brake and use the other to blip on the downshifts. This way you are more able to accurately modulate the brake pedal pressure to keep the tyres at the threshold braking.

If you don't realise manual clutch + gearbox is slower than auto clutch + sequential you're either delusional or you don't understand the situation.

Btw Morpha, What i Try to say is that bassicly it´s there for a reason, and i named, that.

As i See, you´re too Inside the Serious SimRacing, well they are talking about get it in any server, being public or not, public servers are there for the people that wants to get pickup racing, being competitive or not, it´s fun anyway, Btw how they would get fun out of it if they need to get that equipment just for pickup racing? to have fun with your friends...

Btw If that Feature could be enabled Only in Private servers (Serious races[leagues and the like] run their´s in private ones) then that wouldn´t be that Bad but as I said, Only in Private Servers (´cause the reasons above).

Come on, admins don't get their servers filled as it is, they wouldn't all turn on the option and run completely empty servers.

Quote from XCNuse :

Well I'm telling you I haven't.

Well you would have had to for your D40, but could have gotten 1.5 G25s for the same kind of money. Puts things into perspective, no? Who'd have thought it would be this different
Out of curiousity, what's a US gallon (or whatever you measure it in at the pump) of diesel off the top of your head?

I'm .3 seconds slower on the drag strip than a team mate who's using the paddles, that's with the G25 shifter which has a short throw and very little resistance. The more realistic the setup, the more severe the disadvantage.

our diesel right now is [edit.. usually is at least] more expensive then our gas since they have passed laws and it has to go through sulfur filters (that happened.. last year I think?)

In my area gas prices are dropping quite rapidly, they are down to $2.30 (87 octane) for a gallon of gas, and diesel is in the $2.40 range (actually doing really good, it's usually more expensive but right now it's looking pretty low) premium (93 octane) is about $2.55

As for my D40, father bought that, but I suppose you're right, it was bought at $360
But again I didn't spend it so.. spending that much money for me is.. gonna take a lot of pushing! I really want a G25 though especially now because I'm thinking I'm going to take my Momo down to school so I can play (wireless xbox360 controller wasn't much fun lol so I never really played)

At prime server hours I see a lot of servers get up there, and the more people in the server, the more likely people are to join in!
Why join in a server that's 5/30 when there's a similar server running 25/30? Which would you prefer to join lol?


@amp88 again.. forcing something that isn't real ISN'T INCREASING REALISM. Not every manual car in this world has a clutch. Sure maybe the cars in LFS aren't like today's cars, but that's not the point, because what about everyone running an Auto gearbox? Can they race too?

By the way, toe heel doesn't make you faster, and if you think it does then you must be delusional, because all you're doing is setting the car up for the gear to take out of a turn, when you could always brake.. clutch in, shift from 5th to 3rd, clutch out and be on your way.. or instead you can risk damaging your entire transmission in a real car by attempting something like that if you don't know how, or miss the turn, miss the apex.. there is plenty more to go wrong in a heel toe situation than there is when you shift at the apex like people did when my father raced.

Quote from XCNuse :

@amp88 again.. forcing something that isn't real ISN'T INCREASING REALISM. Not every manual car in this world has a clutch. Sure maybe the cars in LFS aren't like today's cars, but that's not the point, because what about everyone running an Auto gearbox? Can they race too?

The road cars in LFS are generally accepted to be modelled on <'90s European/Japanese cars. These would almost certainly be sold with manual transmissions with manual clutches. There are a handful of cars that have manual transmissions without a user-operated clutch (some old SAABs, some RUFs etc), but it's pretty safe to assume the road cars in LFS would be sold as manual cars with manual transmissions. It would therefore be more realistic to drive these cars with a manual clutch and h shifter. The only road car that you could realistically suggest would be sold with a sequential/paddle shift gearbox would be the FZ50 (based on a Porsche with the Tiptronic gearbox).

Quote from XCNuse :

By the way, toe heel doesn't make you faster, and if you think it does then you must be delusional, because all you're doing is setting the car up for the gear to take out of a turn, when you could always brake.. clutch in, shift from 5th to 3rd, clutch out and be on your way.. or instead you can risk damaging your entire transmission in a real car by attempting something like that if you don't know how, or miss the turn, miss the apex.. there is plenty more to go wrong in a heel toe situation than there is when you shift at the apex like people did when my father raced.

Where did I say the act of using heel and toe made you faster? What I said was that it was easier to modulate the brake pressure when you only have to worry about 2 pedals. If your right foot is both applying force to the brake pedal and being rolled off to blip the throttle it's incredibly difficult (or impossible) to modulate the brake pedal as you would like, because you're having to move your foot to blip the throttle.

Quote from XCNuse :

In my area gas prices are dropping quite rapidly, they are down to $2.30 (87 octane) for a gallon of gas, and diesel is in the $2.40 range (actually doing really good, it's usually more expensive but right now it's looking pretty low) premium (93 octane) is about $2.55

So about 0.63$ per litre of diesel, which is about 0.45€ or 43% of our per litre price -.-

Quote from XCNuse :

At prime server hours I see a lot of servers get up there, and the more people in the server, the more likely people are to join in!
Why join in a server that's 5/30 when there's a similar server running 25/30? Which would you prefer to join lol?

Well would depend on the combo and type of racing on the servers. I'd rather have a good duel than an unbalanced full grid though.

and I am telling you that you don't have to toe heel, the only thing that helps at is engine braking which.. isn't helping anyone unless you're a pro at it.

Besides, in the cars we're talking about.. there is no purpose of heel and toe, the only time that would be necesary would be in the GTR cars (okay fine you got me.. the only car it would matter would be the FZR) but even then I have yet to upset the car that much when downshifting to much, and if you are, then learn how to use a clutch more properly.

Honestly, I can say the only person I know that is good at toe heel here is.. probably Tristan if he even does it (no offense to anyone else if you are good at it)
but when will you EVER have to toe heel.. in a non GTR car? Ever?

Why WOULD you toe heel in a non GTR car, it would freaking RUIN your transmission, or atleast cut its lifetime in half if you're trying to downshift fast from 6th to 3rd and going down each gear in between, unlike a normal person which would slow down.. hit the apex of the turn, shift into 3rd and go, and save the transmission that much pain.

So honestly, this whole toe heel arguement isn't going anywhere in this thread it's just a sub arguement that is entirely purpose and I have no idea why I'm continueing this sentence lol

@morpha, well.. you gotta take that chance, I've been to enough servers (back in the days when I really played you could only have 16 [or was it 15?] players on a track at one time) so even then it was hard to pick a fight because chances are people were either much faster than you.. or much slower so.. that is why this doesn't bother me because even if someone is having to do more work, or if I were to set up my H shifter and deal with that, no matter how unfair it could be, I would much rather have fun.. racing next to someone doing half the amount of work.. than otherwise really..
lol as for fuel prices.. yep that sounds about right haha! and ours is actually pretty expensive right now, hopefully it will drop down to 2$ flat when I leave for school.

Sometimes you know.. it isn't about how realistic it is.. it's about how much fun it can be.

If you want to get serious about being realistic, how many track days will you ever see two cars that are perfectly balanced?.. Rarely if ever, and that is what hurts about LFS is the limit of cars and modifications, the only things that seperate you from someone else is skill.. and suspension. That isn't much, in the real world.. you can't even compare, so if you want to go the realistic route.. you're going the wrong way because LFS is far from realistic.

Quote from XCNuse :

and I am telling you that you don't have to toe heel, the only thing that helps at is engine braking which.. isn't helping anyone unless you're a pro at it.

How exactly does heel and toe increase engine braking?

Quote from XCNuse :

Besides, in the cars we're talking about.. there is no purpose of heel and toe, the only time that would be necesary would be in the GTR cars (okay fine you got me.. the only car it would matter would be the FZR) but even then I have yet to upset the car that much when downshifting to much, and if you are, then learn how to use a clutch more properly.

Smoother downshifts -> smoother weight transition -> more predictable car. It can also help reduce wear on the gearbox and prolong longevity in longer races.

Quote from XCNuse :

Honestly, I can say the only person I know that is good at toe heel here is.. probably Tristan if he even does it (no offense to anyone else if you are good at it)

The only person you know who is good at heel and toe is someone who you don't know if he uses heel and toe or not...OK, I see where your logic is there.

Quote from XCNuse :

but when will you EVER have to toe heel.. in a non GTR car? Ever?

When I used to drive a car with a manual gearbox and manual clutch (Peugeot 406 1.9 turbo diesel) I would almost always heel and toe on downshifts. The simple reason for this was that it made the downchanges smoother because it helped to alleviate the massive engine braking in a diesel engined car.

Here's some guy driving a non- ... and he's heel and toe'ing. I think he used to be a professional racing driver or something.

Quote from XCNuse :

Why WOULD you toe heel in a non GTR car, it would freaking RUIN your transmission, or atleast cut its lifetime in half if you're trying to downshift fast from 6th to 3rd and going down each gear in between,

You've lost me here. Heel and toe wrecks gearboxes if and only if you go through every gear on the way down the gearbox? Why do experienced racing drivers do it then? They like explaining to the team why there's half a gearbox stuck on the back straight and a trail of oil back to their garage? Really, I think you must have the wrong idea about what heel and toe is.

Quote from XCNuse :

unlike a normal person which would slow down.. hit the apex of the turn, shift into 3rd and go, and save the transmission that much pain.

So you slow down for the corner, stay in the gear you were in before, turn into the corner, hit the apex THEN you downshift and accelerate away. I've been doing it wrong all these years. I thought you were supposed to be in the right gear for accelerating out of the turn BEFORE you turn in. That way you don't spend the first quarter second of the straight fishing about trying to get a gear.

Quote from XCNuse :

So honestly, this whole toe heel arguement isn't going anywhere in this thread it's just a sub arguement that is entirely purpose and I have no idea why I'm continueing this sentence lol

If it serves to educate you and you don't need to go through this argument again with someone in the future it'll save them time and you embarrassment.

Quote from morpha :

It's discrimination, but certainly not a racial issue. Discrimination is not always a bad thing, we don't have to avoid it. Keeping casual gamers out of a serious racing environment is like keeping sex offenders away from kids. Quite exaggerated analogy I know, but it's 6:23 am and I'm still up and couldn't think of anything else, I'm not saying casual gamers are sex offenders or sim racers are kids, hope you get my point

I use an Xbox 360 gamepad to play LFS. A bit unconventional I know, but I've done over 55,000 miles / 88,500 kilometers. That's more than I've driven in real life in the 6 years I've had a drivers license. I've been in a few leagues and know a lot of people from different countries, backgrounds and of course teams, including my own. To call me (and others like me) "casual gamers" simply because I don't have a 3rd pedal (or even any pedals in my case) is elitism at its worst. A casual gamer wouldn't dedicate hours of practice and hundreds of laps for a single 45 minute race in a video game. A casual gamer wouldn't even dedicate the time to a league where their schedule is dictated by some guys across the ocean, months in advance.

Reading through this thread I almost want this option so I wont have the misfortune of racing against people who get upset over people having a different input method.

I could get a G25, sure, but I don't want to. I'm comfortable with how I race and I do well enough to be happy with it. I'm not the fastest, I probably routinely lose to people with G25s and DFPs (oh wait they're only casual gamers too, right?). amp88 brought up the potential of missed shifts and other disadvantages of a h-shifter + clutch. Auto-clutch users have some disatvantages of out own. If we spin and aren't quick enough to release the gas (or say... we think we can power out and keep the throttle down on purpose) we can toast our clutch which ever so helpfully engaged as we were spinning around.

Really the only place I can see where this is a good idea is for people who have G25s (or the homebuilt clutch setups mentioned) who want to drag race against "their own kind". I can understand being pissed at losing by .3 seconds every time because you have the technically better equipment where you have to do everything yourself. In actual race conditions I can't really see the point, there are disadvantages to both clutch and non-clutch setups as I pointed out.

Quote from pik_d :

In actual race conditions I can't really see the point, there are disadvantages to both clutch and non-clutch setups as I pointed out.

So for the auto clutch system you have to remember to lift off the throttle when you're spinning so you won't overheat the clutch? In the manual clutch system you have to remember to put the clutch in so you don't stall. Surely it's more difficult to recover from a spin if one of your feet is busy holding down the clutch so you don't need to restart the engine? I just don't see how remembering to lift off the throttle is remotely close to having to synchronise 2 feet on 3 pedals and the added difficulty of being able to miss shifts, wrong slot etc. It's also easier to overheat the clutch driving normally with a manual clutch and transmission compared to auto clutch because it's easy to mistime the release of the clutch when you're trying to battle not to lose time.

Stall... how are you going to stall a car when it's moving unless you somehow manage to lock up anything and everything that is moving?

If you stall a manual car when shifting.. you will break anything worth money in that car.

Honestly if you have a clutch, learn to use it, otherwise don't worry about it that's what it comes down to, if you want to deal with a clutch, then you should know better to put it in if you start to spin out and come to a stop.

Thats just true for life, if you get a manual car.. you should know better, if you stall it when it comes to a stop, that is YOUR fault, not the cars.


Also by the way.. automatic cars don't have clutches in the transmissions, there is nothing to overheat.

If you're not using a wheel, you're not driving a (virtual) car. You're playing a game. We're probably close to driving cars with gamepad-like controls, but not quite there yet. When we do, I will consider "gamepadders" drivers, but only if the car you're driving in LFS has the same kind of controls. Until then, only a wheel-and-pedals-user (or the equivalent controls for disabled people) is a driver to me. No doubt you can operate a virtual car in LFS with a gamepad, it's just not what I consider driving, at least not in a simulation.

Quote from pik_d :

Really the only place I can see where this is a good idea is for people who have G25s (or the homebuilt clutch setups mentioned) who want to drag race against "their own kind". I can understand being pissed at losing by .3 seconds every time because you have the technically better equipment where you have to do everything yourself. In actual race conditions I can't really see the point, there are disadvantages to both clutch and non-clutch setups as I pointed out.

I'm not pissed at all, I don't even use it as an excuse, just pointed it out to make it clear that, in my experience, H-shifting is in fact slower than auto-clutch sequential shifting.

Quote from XCNuse :

Also by the way.. automatic cars don't have clutches in the transmissions, there is nothing to overheat.

Very dangerous generalisation, there are many different implementations of automatic transmissions and I'm fairly certain every single one contains something that's prone to overheat under the right (or rather wrong) conditions. Can't really avoid it when transmitting torque, there'll always be friction.

Quote from XCNuse :

Stall... how are you going to stall a car when it's moving unless you somehow manage to lock up anything and everything that is moving?

When you come to a stop in a car with a manual transmission and a manual clutch you either have to be in neutral or have the clutch in (or both) to stop it from stalling. When you're spinning you tend to stop before you rejoin the track (well, if you're going to check for traffic that is).

Quote from XCNuse :

Honestly if you have a clutch, learn to use it, otherwise don't worry about it that's what it comes down to, if you want to deal with a clutch, then you should know better to put it in if you start to spin out and come to a stop.

Thats just true for life, if you get a manual car.. you should know better, if you stall it when it comes to a stop, that is YOUR fault, not the cars.

I do know how to drive a car with a manual transmission - I've driven a few and owned a couple over the years.

Quote from XCNuse :

Also by the way.. automatic cars don't have clutches in the transmissions, there is nothing to overheat.

I've been careful to mention auto clutch rather than auto transmission. If you use the auto clutch on top of a sequential system in LFS then you're still driving a car with a transmission with a clutch underneath, it's just that LFS is operating the clutch for you.

Quote from amp88 :

How exactly does heel and toe increase engine braking?

Well.. ever take a manual car and go down a hill and shift into lower gears? That's how, I don't need to explain.

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Smoother downshifts -> smoother weight transition -> more predictable car. It can also help reduce wear on the gearbox and prolong longevity in longer races.

Again.. if you know how to use a clutch properly.. this is your duty, if you feel as though you need to heel toe (which you don't) then learn to shift smoothly. Heel and toe doesn't reduce wear and tear, shifting correctly does. Heel and toe is just an accessory to blipping to reduce wear and tear

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The only person you know who is good at heel and toe is someone who you don't know if he uses heel and toe or not...OK, I see where your logic is there.

My logic is that I personally don't know anyone that is good at heel and toe, that is what I'm getting at.. if you say you can't do this or you can't do that because you're to busy heel and toeing.. that is YOUR fault, that means you AREN'T good at it, if you were, you wouldn't be complaining about having to do this or that.

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When I used to drive a car with a manual gearbox and manual clutch (Peugeot 406 1.9 turbo diesel) I would almost always heel and toe on downshifts. The simple reason for this was that it made the downchanges smoother because it helped to alleviate the massive engine braking in a diesel engined car.

When..? I have yet to be in a situation that I have to drop down a gear except for going up a hill I drop from 5th to 4th but that doesn't involve braking.. when do you ever in any car have to brake and shift at the same time?

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You've lost me here. Heel and toe wrecks gearboxes if and only if you go through every gear on the way down the gearbox? Why do experienced racing drivers do it then? They like explaining to the team why there's half a gearbox stuck on the back straight and a trail of oil back to their garage? Really, I think you must have the wrong idea about what heel and toe is.

Like I said.. these guys know what they're doing, not to mention they are RACING transmissions, the normal H gate cars in LFS.. would not involve a racing transmission, chances are any idiot to try heel toe and screwed it up.. would probably be a $2,000 or more mistake

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So you slow down for the corner, stay in the gear you were in before, turn into the corner, hit the apex THEN you downshift and accelerate away. I've been doing it wrong all these years. I thought you were supposed to be in the right gear for accelerating out of the turn BEFORE you turn in. That way you don't spend the first quarter second of the straight fishing about trying to get a gear.

Yea.. if you're racing.. and have a transmission made for racing. By the way, the time you waste downshifting probably skidding the tires.. is much more time than it takes to downshift in between braking and throttle to shift gears... Unless you have one foot on brake and one on throttle so when you are at the apex your throttle is halfway in as you're letting brake off... otherwise it doesn't work that way.