The number of people who can either program or can afford to pay someone to program for them is pretty small. I suppose there's potential for asking for something like this to be included in one of the free, popular InSim apps (Airio and LFSLapper) though.
So what about the time spent on a feature that you and Matrixi want? It seems that a lot of people are agreeing with me, maybe the time you want spent on this feature should go into something more important for LFS overall.
Well, obviously it lacks such things. I don't think even Frex has all of those features nailed yet. Consumer products are still consumer products, and I think G25 for its price gives you the closest feeling to a real car (steering) feedback that Average Joe could ask for. What else better is there for under 1000 euros? I don't agree about extremely limited wheel feedback either, if we were talking about a DFP or a Momo, I would agree completely.
@amp
yes, and the people that can afford a 3 pedal set is even smaller than that!
I mean I guess I'm getting to the point that an option .. depending on how long it would take to code in comparison to insim .. would make sense.. but do you really think anyone will actually USE it a year from now?
Like I was saying earlier about force cockpit, sure it was a fad and a lot of public servers were running it.. but now.. only a few Leagues use it if any leagues at all, everyone pretty much came to the decision why force someone to do something.. For some people they really didn't care because they never changed their view because they have three monitors, but how many people here play LFS on a laptop? Chances are they have a 15" I would shoot myself with a laptop that small, I still consider my 17" rough..
Forcing cockpit on everyone may be fine for some, but that's like putting a patch on one eye and forcing them to look down a toilet roll tube to have any clue as to what is going on.
In all reality.. force cockpit isn't fair technically speaking..
@matrixi, that is what i've been saying lol.. it isn't affordable, not to mention it hasn't even been made yet, frex.. seriously? lets not get into that discussion, there are maybe 5 people in this entire forum that wouldn't mind spending that much money for a cage setup.. that's 5 people.. that is like paying attention to one star in the night sky by comparison..
I'm just saying.. you're the one trying to show how realistic it is.. but it isn't and you said so yourself, i'm not trying to fight, just trying to get you to understand.. the technology just .. isn't here yet. And it doesn't look like it will be here anytime to soon.
Wouldn't be necessary if no time at all had been spent on implementing the unrealistic auto clutch feature in the first place
€: Please just leave it at that, we went way off topic already...
No, there's a pretty even distribution of everything, though obviously many more auto clutchers. Even distributions don't prove that anything is faster than the other options, in fact it signifies that there's little to no difference.
2 tenths on AS2 is about .277...%. How many laps did you do? I trust your integrity but I'd like to know the details of the test.
Yes, because there wouldn't be anyone playing the game, so Scawen wouldn't have any reason to continue developing it.
I can't remember exactly, this was back near the time I got the G25 (early January 2008). It would be interesting to get a really good tintop driver who had a G25 (or other wheel with clutch) and get them to do some laps with auto clutch + seq then manual clutch + shifter and compare the times. I'll create a wee thread in General Discussion and see if there's any interest.
No new features at all, LFS should be sold to EA as is. They'd probably sell it as Need for Speed: Trackday and Scawen, Eric and Victor should start over again.
Can we stop this ridiculous off-topic trip now?
Uhh, I haven't said that G25 wouldn't be realistic, it only lacks feedback in the mostly irrelevant parts. Sure it would be nice to have a brake pedal that kicks back when ABS goes on, and a shifter that would simulate worn out syncros, but those are all irrelevant things compared to the important part: steering.
The thing is, you're trying to make secondary and tertiary feedback devices (pedals/gearbox) to be more important than they actually are. The steering wheel is the important bit, and that bit is already good with modern consumer technology (G25/Frex/911 wheel). You have driven with a G25 in LFS though, I presume?
I've been in to hardcore sim equipment ever since I started driving racing games, I still have a picture of how my DIY clutch setup looked in 2003 (check the EXIF). The cost of that clutch pedal? Less than 15 euros. It was from a broken TM 360 Modena, hotglued next to my MSFF pedals. I think I was also one of the first Act-Labs customers who imported their h-pattern shifter to Finland. That is why I still am, and always will be stuck in my stubborn opinions of anti-arcade controllers and camera views. Been doing this for too long to change.
That's a good idea though, what about the thrustmaster wheel though, was that just set off to the side?
I just don't like my setup now being in college and not having a desktop anymore where it wouldn't move, but the G25 is a nice little package, 2 wheels, 2 pedal sets, and the ACT Labs H shifter.. is a lot of junk!
But would big and well known servers implement these limitations? If they did wouldn't it piss off a bunch of people who couldn't play anymore? Wouldn't those pissed off people then be tempted to use macros to "hack" their way in? Or would those server's userbase reduce to 2 drivers per week? Which would in turn make this whole thing pointless.
The hc servers would need to be alongside the usual servers, of course. That's how the TO drift servers ran. Public and HC, the latter forced a steering wheel to be used whereas public didn't have such requirements. And as I said before, these limitations must be hardcoded to prevent cheaters/hackers getting in.
It's rather impossible to reliably to check if user is using an actual physical clutch pedal or a macro. From LFS' point of view pressing a clutch pedal and macro using the clutch looks exactly the same. It doesn't matter if it's hardcoded in to LFS or if it's a Insim app.
You're not one of these people that think you can feel anything through the brake pedal are you Nuse (not counting warped discs or ABS pulsing obviously)?
Mind telling us what the surface has to do with it? (as Tristan said: not counting warped discs or ABS pulsing obviously)
Of course FFB pedals would be nice, but ABS and warped discs are the only factors that require dynamic forces. Boiled fluid would simply reduce the brake pedal's resistance, think we don't really need that, especially since it can't happen in LFS yet.
I have a bit (some of it not entirely on purpose )... But I still don't get feedback from the brakes - you can't feel when they lock or when they bite from the pedal; that sense comes from the accelerations acting on your body.
It can be forced fairly easily by hardcoding. Even LFSLapper could do it, if it was updated a bit. For example, now it only checks the controller requirements when you pit out or start a race, if it checked those requirements at every split or even at every lap, it would make it quite bothersome for cheaters to bypass without macros. Not to mention if it was all hardcoded, Scawen could make the hooks for the controller checks much more intelligent, preventing macro usage. I still have a bit faith in the LFS community that we wouldn't actually see THAT many people armed with macros going in to a HC server to win easy races.
To end this discussion on my part, I shall quote one of the Forza developers talking about the forced multiplayer difficulty options (no auto gears, etc):
"If you don't like it, then don't join!"
Let the HC guys drive how they want to, it takes nothing away from the majority of racers who are happy with their auto-clutches. In this day and age anyone who just wants a clutch can build one from cheap secondary wheels pedals if they seriously find a G25 too expensive. I think some people just aren't willing to take their sim racing in to the next level of realism, and want everyone to be stuck in their majority group so they might have more handicap advantage than the person they are racing against.
The joke was/is I believe in the dim dark past I have made such claims as feeling certain feedback through the brake pedeal but that most probably stems from the fact that the vast amount of driving experience I've had is in old bombs which inevetably don't have discs in what I'd call good condition so as you rightly point out my experience of feedback through the brake pedal is very likely an exception rather than a rule having said that though I would have thought sloted or drilled discs might give similar feedback to those badly abused discs of mine The reference to gravel is simply were I feel that sensation the most - I've grown up on gravel roads though so maybe it's just some wiered wiring going on in my brain that is not normal and is extrapolating the overall sensory input I have on gravel roads leading me to believe I have feeling in the brake pedal
It's very VERY easy to think you do, because it's easy even for new drivers to be able to tell when they are near the point of locking, when the brakes are just about to bite etc. But that's just the human brain being quite clever, and linking the forces of retardation coming through the seat with the pressure you're applying to the pedal. Unless you actually think about it (something most people aren't dull enough to bother doing, unlike me ) you would come to the conclusion you can feel stuff through the pedal.
Drillings and slots don't cause the pad to move, it just goes over them and lets gas/dust out. As such there is no feedback through the pedal. Scored discs (where the scoring is radial) also don't make any difference (to pedal feedback or in 99% of cases braking efficiency). But a warped or cracked disc could as the raised areas will push the pads back, forcing fluid backwards through the system. But a distorted disc might not do so, as one pad is pushed back, the excess fluid on that side is used up moving the other pad out again - no net fluid movement. This won't apply to 'girling style' calipers where only one side has fluid of course.
Put simply, it's very easy (and hence I don't mock people for it ) to think brakes give feedback through the pedal. But unless something is quite badly wrong then they don't.
So I have a weired brain I take that as a compliment even though many others have tried to use that as slander against me as well
What you say does make sense and I am constantly amazed at our brains capacity to do things super computers will still most likely take life times to perfect the down side of the human brain though is as strong as it is that strength often becomes a weakness...
No I am how you are, people say you can feel the brakes, i know I don't!
But I think it's safe to say if you hit a bump hard enough while braking in LFS.. I think you would get feedback when the car hits the ground ... I think..? I don't know lol
I guess it isn't really feedback.
Maybe someone just needs to figure out the right kind of piston pressure etc, every pedal set I've touched is all floppy and feels like crap!
I want a clutch that feels like a clutch, I want to be able to set the grip point of that clutch in LFS, my clutch pedal feels like my gas pedal, and my brake pedal feels like my car's real clutch pedal, it's all mixed around!
I think I know what has happened with this whole you can feel brakes.. I think it got handed down from our parents who had to use their own pressure to apply the brakes.. if that's the case sure lol, but... I haven't been in a situation yet I had to use my own force to brake, have in my driveway and it's hella hard! But today, no I don't feel much, I do feel my friend's warped disc though and that's.. besides insanely dangerous if sucks!
I suppose what it really comes down to is.. LFS is to linear feeling, in my car and every car I know, there are specific points in the throttle, brake, and clutch that have a different effect than they did right before, ei: with a gas pedal, there are certain punch points where it feels like you just floored your car but.. you didn't.. anyone know what I mean?
Same with the engines in LFS, the power is to linear I believe
The reference to gravel is simply were I feel that sensation the most - I've grown up on gravel roads though so maybe it's just some wiered wiring going on in my brain that is not normal and is extrapolating the overall sensory input I have on gravel roads leading me to believe I have feeling in the brake pedal 
) to think brakes give feedback through the pedal. But unless something is quite badly wrong then they don't.
the down side of the human brain though is as strong as it is that strength often becomes a weakness...