No, it really is quite impossible to detect macros from inside LFS. Only way it could be done is by checking what background programs the user is running while playing, but the problem with that is that there are tons of macro programs out there. Most people don't like programs sniffing their PC either. Besides I am sure Scawen has made Insim give out as much info about users controller settings as LFS internally sees, so that people can make these kind of plugins if they so want. This seems to be a simple thing to do too. Maybe Insim doesn't update the controller settings on every split or lap, that is something you should maybe request if it doesn't.
What I am trying to say is that:
1. If a major server would turn 'HC', it would take a lot away from people who can't race without an auto-clutch. Which is why it would be tempting to use macros.
2. If a minor server would go 'HC', it would still be a minor server. That wouldn't take away nothing from majority of people, but it wouldn't make that server very popular either. There would only be few players playing and all those 'HC' racers would still not be happy because the lack of players.
3. It is already possible to do this with Insim and it would probably be equally effective than having it as an internal part of LFS.
PS. In Forzas case things are very different. Everyone can play in the HC mode in Forza, because it works with the normal controller everyone has.
So what you land up with is a bunch of people that already have a wheel.. but now they have to go out and either buy a second wheel to use the pedals, make your own pedal and figure that all out, or buy a pedal set, or buy a new wheel that has a clutch... That can range anywhere from the do it yourself of probably $20 to over $200 depending on the option
I really can't think of to many people that have the time/patience to do it themselves, or see any reason to go out and buy a second wheel just for a pedal set.. just to be able to race..
There is no actual feedback, as such, from a clutch pedal, although the spring rate (for want of a better term) is variable over the travel as you move the release bearing, as the preload is taken off the driven plate, and as it moves the clutch fingers. This could be 'simulated' by multiple springs in the clutch system, and requires little more than that. It certainly does need a motor or active feedback.
The brakes don't really either. If you hit a big bump then the brake pressure won't vary, so it's no felt from the pedal. But you feel the bump through the seat and the pedals and the wheel as the whole car moves - so that requires a motion platform of some kind to simulate. But brakes are pressure sensitive, so to get an authentic pedal you need a small hydraulic system ending in a load cell. Just having the pedal press the load cell directly would be close enough though I'd have thought, with a spring to simulate the initial fluid movement stage.
Throttles are just acting against springs (unless your car has one of those traction control pedal vibrators), and as such can be simulated passively using springs in the pedal box.
I don't believe there is any need for force feedback pedals. Just a few more springs and levers, plus a load cell. And they all need to be stronger springs - my ECCI pedals are set to their hardest levels and are only just strong enough to feel like real pedals with shoes on. With the logitech pedals I have to use them bear footed to get any feel as they're so soft (the pedals, not my feet).
Yes you would, the vast majority of drivers on LFS still would not have three pedal set ups so it is extremely unlikely that more than a mere handful of server operators would even consider forced clutch let alone implement it
@ Tristian I agree with your analysis of pedals 100% and that is pretty much my long term plane for my sim rig
Exactly. Adding the option would add more choice for everyone, not restrict everyone. And more choice at this stage is a good thing. LFS can then cater for the ex-arcade racer looking for more realistic thrills, the casual gamer who is not interested in motorsport (cruisers ) all the way up to the established simmer looking for the ultimate realism experience, and everything in between.
... to be serious, extinguishing the auto-clutch would make me leave LFS cause I couldn't race anylonger... I only have a break-throttle pedal set and I'm shifting via a sequential shifter... I don't have the money buying me more equipment. Also I know many people playing LFS with keyboard. And I know many people who don't have a clutch pedal either (using a Logitech Momo for example)... actually it would make many people leave LFS to be serious if the auto-clutch would be banned.
Even my car has got an auto-clutch but no automatic gearbox
Maybe I haven't read the thread properly, but this isn't about banning autoclutch, but adding an option (that wouldn't be used anywhere near some of the time) to have manual clutches only on a server.
Nobody is disadvantaged by it, nobody has to stop. It's exactly the same as wanting to join a server and finding that it's set on a track you don't want to race - you find another server and have fun there instead.
Okay, not an automatic but not a manual gearbox either. Road cars in LFS are all manuals, proper sequentials in LFS don't need auto clutch. Auto clutch is solely for shifting manuals like sequentials, clutchless shifting is possible without auto clutch (but only if you match revs, there are no synchros).
Easy wins? Racing against people I know to use clutches is not an easy win for me. It's just as hard for me to maneuver my car past someone, just as hard for me to hit the apexes, just as hard for me to not lock up the brakes. You're deluded if you really think we'd have an easy win just because we have a different kind of clutch.
Out of curiosity how does this add more choice for the auto-clutchers?
Pretty sure he was talking about macro users, who can shift in between 10 and 60ms by having a clutch button (= no delay, which auto clutch has) and using a single button for clutch-shift-clutch.
Some of the dudes here are really dumb, arguing about nothing, because anyway they will have cars with sequential gear box and they don't need a clutch for thoes ... so if there would be a GTR race, only the FZR racers would be forced to use a clutch.
I bet that they never even thought about dissabling that "Auto-Clutch", not even once ... but they keep talking about it, though ... This is a request for all the scared no-clutch players: Dissable the option and try to drive a car with a sequential gear box. You'll notice that everything is the same.
The "No Auto-Clutch" option doesn't have as much DPS (Damager per seccond) as it seems. It would just give the players a chance to play with who they want to play, not all together like a bunch of drunk football players.
With mouse and keyboard, driving the FZR I have two choices
- auto-clutch and able to blip
- manual (aka button) clutch and not able to blip
Guess which is significantly faster..
If you're going to suggest it, it would be more useful together with forced "wheel". The problem with that is that it guarantees diddlysquat as any controller which doesn't ID as keyboard or mouse is a "wheel". I remember asking one time on a demo server "which wheel you using?" reply? "Oh I'm using a console controller". Then there's also the issue of virtual devices. If it's possible to fake CD and DVD drives with pure software, it probably won't be impossible to throw a known "wheel" device ID at the DX API and you're back to square one. Obviously anyone doing that would be a minority, but it's not quite as simple as "no auto-clutch, gg." imo.
It adds more choice as a whole, not necessarily to each individual. Lets pretend that Windows only allowed Internet Explorer to be used from now on. The choice is restricted. 90% of people won't care or realise. But by allowing you to get Firefox or Opera or Chrome you add choice to those that want it.
Same with a forceaxisclutch mode - those that don't want/can't afford/don't have a clutch pedal carry on as normal. Those that do can choose. Those that currently use autoclutch might be swayed to get a third pedal. Those that have stopped playing (see an earlier post by someone) because the realism isn't copied universally might come back.
To autoclutchers the world of LFS won't change. There will be a vast amount of servers, players, leagues and hardware suited to your wants.
And I think that LFS has realism as one of its core values - hence an option hardcore mode (or layer) would only widen the appeal, not restrict it.
If you can't see that by now (not just from this post, but the whole thread) then I think you'll never see it from that viewpoint.
First you directly contradict yourself about "more choice for everyone", then you somehow come to the conclusion that a niche option for a niche game, that is specifically designed to exclude the majority of the players from the infected servers, somehow widens appeal. I know you like arguing but this is honestly taking "hm well how can I warp things to prove this guy wrong" to the extreme.
Maybe I'm wrong but I think that realism as a core value is more or less "hardcore realism with very little compromise*, but for everyone". When I say everyone I mean not only people from different countries (lots of translated languages), but people of different incomes. The developer chose to add an option to stabalize keyboards, that should be pretty telling of their goals. They've also kept the system requirements down, you don't need a hardcore computer to play this hardcore game.
* there are options such as brake assist, race line and maybe some other assists. As much as anyone wants it to be, this is not a no-compromise game. You can play it as one of course, but you don't have to.
No, I thought I was being very open, honest and nice about it, without even a hint of wanting an argument (for once!).
Maybe you don't use the phrase more choice for everyone much in the US, but in the UK it's a fairly well understood phrase. A 'hardcore mode' option adds choice, not restricts it. You can't add options and say that restricts choice.
Lets say there are 1000 players. 10 of them don't play much because they don't like the idea of racing people who are using a mouse, or a button clutch or autoclutch. They want to race people doing the work themselves in much the same way they are. So we can either have 990 players in LFS all happy with their unrealistic setups (and there is nothing wrong with that at all. I'm not looking down on those not fortunate enough or interested in three pedal setups), or we can have 1000 players all of which are happy.
Exactly! And this option would only further that ethos.
If you are so bent on realism and that everyone on the planet can afford a $300 wheel, why not buy a real car and race it on a real track with other real cars?
"More choice for the hardcore 3 pedal/h-shifter/manual clutch, less choice (by merit of being excluded from an unknown quantity of servers) for everyone else".
How does this equate to "More choice for everyone"? If "more choice for everyone" means something in the UK other than the sum total of its parts, please explain. To me it means that everyone, that is every single person, has somehow been given more choices. Hopefully this is just a colloquial misunderstanding.
Um Tristan does that already along with many others on this forum!
For me though I am a part owner of business which is not just within normal business hours and is growing and expanding rapidly, then I also develop properties when I'm not running our business which uses up all remaining funds and spare time I might have (I do the majority of the work myself ). So when I do play a game, I take it serious because for me I get fun out of treating it like real as I don't really have the opportunity to pursue racing in my day to day life (as that would take up too much time and cost a lot more than a sim rig, computer and some software, this time and money I choose to spend on developing houses to prepare for retirement). That may change in the future but it's not what I can or want to do now. I can though spend a small amount of money (to me) on a racing rig and choose to treat sims in a perhaps more serious manner which doesn't mean that only 'sucessful' (I treat that term very lightly becuase finacial sucess means nothing without other more important things being present in ones family and life also) people can do what I do, I know numerous people (some unemployed, some on disability pensions and others that work in a more normal way. Some single, some married with kids and guess what they all can and many do have similar setups to my own it comes down to the choices they have made).
I already spend a lot of my 'LFS time' on a wheel only server, but this doesn't mean I don't spend any time on other servers, I do. But I like the choice! And racing against all wheel users or all clutch users is different I know because I've tried it, which isn't to say I don't enjoy racing against people that don't use wheels, it's just different and another enjoyable choice that LFS offers. In much the same way as LFS offers drift servers, cruise servers, demo derby servers, cops an robbers servers, road cars, to f1, rallycross, autocross, oval to road courses, etc. To me all those choices don't offer much choice to me as I personally don't enjoy many of those choices or have any interest at all in them. (i.e. cruise, drifting, oval, open wheelers, etc) my preference is for road cars, so I choose to spend all my time on race servers mostly in road cars, I don't begrudge the rest of the users that choose to spend the bulk of there time on drift servers, oval racing, driving the open wheelers, etc I infact have great respect for many of them - especially the ones that are commited and are good at what they do.
There was a time I would have argued against all that choice though thinking it fragments the community (i.e. like when we went from S1 to S2) but times have changed, I know there are many that have moved on from LFS some because they felt all the added features in LFS took away from the pure racing that was around in S1 days to others that have lost interest and moved on because they find LFS isn't hard core enough for there taste. I now believe that the more choice LFS has the more people will remain and perhaps many return to enjoy it in the future.
I personally have no issue even with server options that would allow S1H style racing conditions through to ultra hard core options. I would choose to race on S1H style servers sometimes and I would choose to race on ultra hard core servers sometimes but I'd probably still end up racing mostly on wheel only servers. The thing is I'd enjoy each of the different options in different ways and in varying amounts.
I guess some people welcome choice while others will fear it
The difference is that with the auto-clutch thing that is something physical, outside of the software. Some people don't really have a choice (please make the distinction between technically having a choice, and realistically having it) in what input device they use.
Drifting, cruising, racing, demolition derby, these are all things that every single person who has LFS can do. Drive with a clutch? Not so much. This is the distinction here. If you say "Server CruiseXYZ is a cruise only server" then people have the choice to stay out of it if they only want to race. If you say "Server PopularLeagueXYZ is now clutch only" then well... some people will carry on and some people wont.
It's not choice that I'm personally against here. If you don't want me on your server because I use some specific input device, fine, it's your server and I shouldn't try to force my way in. What I disagree with is the easy to use option that could spawn such things as: "oh hey clutch only that sounds good, even though I never really cared about it before". I guess you could say I fear being left out when there's no reason for that to happen in the first place.
The funny thing is that I tend to stick to open wheel races where clutch only matters for the first half second of the race anyway. Imagine if someone decided to make an open wheel server clutch only.
Also, Matrixi said he had an Insim app setup so only clutch users could race, and that there were only two visitors in a week. No big league is going to have this kind of option because so many people use auto-clutch. It would be suicide for the league. Given how little use it would even get (as someone arguing FOR IT pointed out) I would say this option isn't even worth it.
But following your logic to the extreme (as you are following our logic to the extreme) would mean that none of us should have LFS at all beacuse there are many individuals in the world that can not afford a good enough PC to run LFS properly or internet connection to allow low ping racing let alone a wheel. So it's not fair to them that we can so therefore we should rally and get Scawen to dumb down LFS so it will run on even the slowest PC's so all who want to race can no matter what there circustance.
If the out cry was because a certain segment of the community was demanding that a change be made that would exclude even a small segment from using LFS at all that would be different, but when your just talking of an option in which a small but loyal portion of the LFS community would get some enjoyment out of without excluding anyone else from enjoying LFS in the way they currently do I just don't get it.
) all the way up to the established simmer looking for the ultimate realism experience, and everything in between.
