I agree with madcatX on that one about if want tuning use EA.

Just the turbos and all and N2O is crap idea, the engine mapping tho would be nice to see, altho it would cause another thing some people to learn. It also would be alot of work.

Overall my view would be that it would be nice (to be able to change torque curves and power cuves) as would simulate another part of racing, as it is part of setting up the car. But realistically, having it would cause too much trouble really, and wouldnt be worth it.

its ridiculous that the established anti-tuner's on the forum use "would be too complex and offer too much advantage" as a reason to complain about the possible addition to lfs. more people understand engine's than suspensions. engines have as much to do with a fast lap as a well sorted suspension.

example: drive your favorite set 2 laps around blackwood (no practice laps), than do same in a car with 0 toe settings, 30 spring rate, 15 shock rating, max sway setting, braking bias set to 80.

result: although the car is still drivable, the handling will change significantly, and you would not be able to set a record no matter how good a driver you are.

from what ive learned about suspension tuning over the years (as something that does not interest me), soft springs increase grip, firm shocks increase car control, sways increase grip in corners, and front tires do about 80% of braking on a car. i know more about suspension tuning that most racers, but my best efforts for the first couple months were half-assed and ineffective. yet racers who do know suspension tuning (or know someone who does) insist that suspension tuning does not affect the equality of the playing field, and that it is understood by everyone.

example: put your best set and the example set specified in the example above on ai cars, let them run 10 laps practice and watch their lap times as they proceed.

result: the ideal setup will start with lower lap times, and improve more per lap than the other one. after 30-50 laps, both ai racers will be at their best lap times with the set they are in, and both times will be close (showing what would be possible by top racers even in sets that are not ideal), but the ideal set will still be between 0.1-1.5 seconds faster per lap. this is because suspension tuning has a huge effect on the balance of racing.

it is much easier to play-balance cars with modified engines than it is to balance cars with modified suspensions. modified engines can be limited by peak hp, avg hp, hp per liter, hp per kg, to fit within a class/equal racing system. modified suspensions cannot have their peaks and avg's calculated to balance the field, there is always a "best set" on the field which others will have to keep up with. regardless of driver skill, suspension tuning can make or break a race effort, and cannot be balanced to a class/equality system. even if you calculate a car's slalom/skidpad/acceleration/braking times/distances, you cannot quantify exactly how much of an advantage a set will have over another one on a given racetrack until your actually racing.

sure MR. S1 licensed.

Engine tuning does nothing to improve driving skill, hence drifters love it. With suspension tuning, you have to learn the right lines, setting up the suspension properly for the fastest time\cleanest lines, its a combo of you and the car, getting the power down is just as important too, what good is a 10000000 HP engine if you cant setup the car to deliver proper grip to use it? hence drifting became an excuse for that :P.

And the ultimate goal is to become a better driver, this is not achieved by whos the fastest in a straight line, or who has the fastest car.... if your slow MR. S1 licensed, practice your lines, learn from other people and improve your skills, then you wont be using the engine tuning as an excuse.

I dont mean to be derogatory in this post, but i may have... im just tired of tuner types around here, so... sry bout that.

Hello to everybody,

I am not a good driver (in the game ).

What i am loving in this game is that it is realistic enough! But that is not why i think i am a pilot!
Why are so many people here closed to the idea that everyone else playing this game has the same point of view???
It is always possible to regroup, as it has been told, the potentially modified engines by category, or "class"...

Why are you so offensed when someone speaks about something, maybe you can't handle (engine tuning) ?

Please keep in mind that even if you don't like an idea, some people may.

So if "improvments" to the game such as engine tuning doesn't force you to play the way you like to, why preventing other people from having something that they would them enjoy the game even more?

Sébastien

Quote from hinirags :

Hello to everybody,

I am not a good driver (in the game ).

What i am loving in this game is that it is realistic enough! But that is not why i think i am a pilot!
Why are so many people here closed to the idea that everyone else playing this game has the same point of view???
It is always possible to regroup, as it has been told, the potentially modified engines by category, or "class"...

Why are you so offensed when someone speaks about something, maybe you can't handle (engine tuning) ?

Please keep in mind that even if you don't like an idea, some people may.

So if "improvments" to the game such as engine tuning doesn't force you to play the way you like to, why preventing other people from having something that they would them enjoy the game even more?

I think that's because this has been already suggested for 1 000 000 000 times(as Tristan said) and LFS is not tuning game at all. It is racing game, and that makes a big difference. Starter of this thread(was it Dasser?) is probalby hit by tunung mania, as many people are.

For ex. when I was showing LFS to my friend, his first question was "And can also you tune the car here?" When I said no, he lost interest about LFS. Many people are aware of tuning, because EA and Universal(Need for Speed: Underground and Fast and Furious) commercialized it a lot. That's why just everyone wants tuning.

Maybe we behave too tough to "tunung-suggesters", but we just don't wanna see LFS changing to NFS-style game, and we will fight for it

Quote from MadCatX :

I think that's because this has been already suggested for 1 000 000 000 times(as Tristan said) and LFS is not tuning game at all. It is racing game, and that makes a big difference. Starter of this thread(was it Dasser?) is probalby hit by tunung mania, as many people are.

For ex. when I was showing LFS to my friend, his first question was "And can also you tune the car here?" When I said no, he lost interest about LFS. Many people are aware of tuning, because EA and Universal(Need for Speed: Underground and Fast and Furious) commercialized it a lot. That's why just everyone wants tuning.

Maybe we behave too tough to "tunung-suggesters", but we just don't wanna see LFS changing to NFS-style game, and we will fight for it

i dont like the idea of tuning for a simple reason, i only participate in races (unless their autocross) where the cars are almost perfectly balanced

Very rarely will a motorsport org. let engines run free of guidelines\regulations, its the norm in real life, it keeps things interesting, shows who's got talent and who doesnt (for the most part). So just let it be.

But if setting the chassis is not tuning, what is it?

I know that we can easily change the power and caracteristics of the engines thanks to tools such as tweaks and mechanic.

But I think the "setup" of the engine is as much important as the chassis! In a certain limit (to avoid too big gaps between setups).

It is useless saying that a car such as the Gti in the normal life is impossible to set as it is in the game. (dampers, springs and all the angles...) So the game isn't so "pure". What would it lost if engine settings were added?

The trouble is that suspension tuning is necessary to allow each driver, and their respective styles, to get the most of the car. I can't drive some of Flotch's setups becuase they are too weird, but I can drive, say, Csimpoks.

I don't think there is one 'best' setup for any given track because of driving styles.

However, with engine tuning, for a given track, there is one 'ultimate' configuration. Anyone running the wrong boost, ignition timing or whatever will be at a disadvantage to someone not running 'ultimate'. What does that mean? Well, eventually, everyone will run the same engine maps at each track, thus making the tuning bit useless. To start with it might be great while everyone finds the ultimate engine setup, but only for a few weeks. Therefore the programming work needed to make this happen would be wasted.

If LFS was more about longer races, and was very difficult to pass in, then I can see the benefit of different fuel maps for the high powered cars. Running leaner when stuck behind someone to conserve fuel, then going richer in clear air. But LFS is MAINLY about short races, and as such fuel maps will only make about 50 yards difference.

I'm not averse to engine tuning completely, but I do not believe that it would add anything to LFS. And besides, I bet you Scawen has already made up his mind whether to add Engine Tuning to his to-do list, so 1,000,000,000 threads about it won't do much to change his mind unless someone can come up with a VERY well reasoned arguement (not "wouldn't it be cool if...") for it.

I don't really agree with you about the "ultimate engine setup", Tristan.

I think that, like for the chassis, it may depend on the driver's choice. You don't have the same trajectories depending of the driver, and he may require slightly different engine caracteristics. This point is even more important when we relate it to, as you said, the particularities of each pilot's chassis setup. Each engine should be adjusted to the chassis, and vice-versa. A car is a whole thing, and the only thing that you can not influence in LFS is the engine. However it is a major sub-system in a car.

Another thing, i am talking for myself, but i think other people can think like me: we are not all interested by having the perfect trajectory, and like having some fun. The races are not always ordered as it became the case in F1 these last years. So the diverstity in engine setups might be an advantage to give one more dimension to short races.

You may have some points there, hinirags, but I have to agree with tristan (and maany others) that eventually all people would end with same engine setups to get the best performance. I would agree with you, hinirags, if LFS was about drag racing. With the chassis setups you set the car for the track so that it suits for your driving style. (I don't like Flotch's setup neither ) But the engine is always tweaked for maximum power versus durability. Sometimes there are other things, like low end power for some slower tracks but I really can't see a big difference with/without having engine tweaking. The gain from having it is way too little for the effort to get it right and working.

There are a lots of leagues where the engine tweaking has been restricted and generally there are very few parts which you are allowed to change.

For sports2000 series, check their rules: One Two

Yes, it is quite limited series, but the general idea between many series is the same. Equal cars. I couldn't find the FiaGT rules, but I guess there are similar systems to allow very slight engine tuning, like changing the spark plugs, air filters...

What kind of engine tuning are you talking about?

I don't really know, but as LFS doesn't propose to change parts, I think it is not usefull to propose "performance air filters" or "turbo stage 2".

I think it is out of question to change parts. But it is important to be able to change parameters.

For me, LFS is not giving to us real cars that we can set, but "prototypes" that are being set, like in real companies, where if something doesn't work well, you do it antoher way.

So i think things that should be set would be length of the tubes (inlet and exhaust) where the only thing which is done is to change the torque curve as a function of your track.
Then, as it has been told, it would be great to change things such as ignition timing for exemple, and injection time. All that would give more or less power. Keep in mind that more power implies more consumption. So maybe some pilotes will prefer a light car with low fuel but less power, or others more power but more fuel onboard. With that, you can adjust the balancing of the car with adding fuel in the tank and compensating by having more power.
You should be able of choose the diameter of ports. Bigger will help at high revs, wether smaller will help at low revs.
Also you can add filtering systems that are more or less efficient: the more the air is clean, the more your engine is reliable, but you have less power.
You should be able to change the inertia of flying wheel, which influences acceleration.
You should be able to change things that are automatically balanced by a disadvantage. So you have homogenous performance, but optained in a different way.

OK, OK, but why we need to set up the engine precisly, when there is one best setting providing the most power? I bet every driver will race with it, every engine will produce the same power and...... we are just where we were before tweaking. Every engine has same power and now everything depens on suspension setup and driver skill.
No, it will be much more work to do and it will not bring anything really new to game. Only reason why to implement engine tuning is different reliability. It would be drivers chioce is he wants 505HP and quite reliable engine that can work for all 50 laps, or if he wants 511HP and possibility that engine brokes down in 46th lap.... But engine damage is modelled very sparsely in LFS, so everything will need scripts and scripts are not good in sims. IMO the engine tweaking could be the LAST thing modelled on LFS, I say again THE LAST!

I don't really understand your point of view when you say that setting the engine is not a part of the setup of the car...
If you have a certain gear ratio in a turning, maybe you will be to have more torque to go out of it, than with the standard engine configuration.

All right, engine setting is a part of car setup, but look for ex. on WTCC championship. There are many car brands there, and I bet that every Seat, BMW, Alfa and so on has the SAME engine setup as any other car of the same brand. Engine setup isn't the standard part of car setup. Engine is set properly in it's developement stage and there are no serious changes made during the race season. I am 99% sure that engine isn't set up for drivers needs, but driver has to famaliarize with engine. I've never heard any driver saying "I need a more torque at 4th gear in 5000rpm, adjust the fuel injection".

Quote from MadCatX :

All right, engine setting is a part of car setup, but look for ex. on WTCC championship. There are many car brands there, and I bet that every Seat, BMW, Alfa and so on has the SAME engine setup as any other car of the same brand. Engine setup isn't the standard part of car setup. Engine is set properly in it's developement stage and there are no serious changes made during the race season. I am 99% sure that engine isn't set up for drivers needs, but driver has to famaliarize with engine. I've never heard any driver saying "I need a more torque at 4th gear in 5000rpm, adjust the fuel injection".

So do you often hear someone with a 205Gti doing rally saying "in need to pass from 3,234 to 3,254 gear ratio"?

I too like the idea of engine tuning - in theory. It sounds like a great idea.
Only as been said before. it would only last a short time. Everyone will be running the motors the same way. So there really wouldn't be much of a difference. Also, making a decent set up is hard enough with out having to
fool with displacement, piston stroke and making sure the crank is balanced.
I think in the long run engine tuning would have a negative impact on the game overall. It would get so bogged down in technical details, it would kill the fun factor. plus, you'd have a lot A LOT of mismatched and unbalanced races until everyone settled on the "uber set-up".It would also pave the way for cheating. How would you know if someone wasn't just using a macro?
Nah. The idea of engine tuning is kinda like political ideologies. it works great on paper, but when actually applied, it sorta sucks.

Quote from Racer Y :

I too like the idea of engine tuning - in theory. It sounds like a great idea.
Only as been said before. it would only last a short time. Everyone will be running the motors the same way. So there really wouldn't be much of a difference. Also, making a decent set up is hard enough with out having to
fool with displacement, piston stroke and making sure the crank is balanced.
I think in the long run engine tuning would have a negative impact on the game overall. It would get so bogged down in technical details, it would kill the fun factor. plus, you'd have a lot A LOT of mismatched and unbalanced races until everyone settled on the "uber set-up".It would also pave the way for cheating. How would you know if someone wasn't just using a macro?
Nah. The idea of engine tuning is kinda like political ideologies. it works great on paper, but when actually applied, it sorta sucks.

Contradictory I think
Moreover, i would say that if you are not good at doing a setup for the chassis, you could find here the chance to fill the gap!

Quote from hinirags :

Contradictory I think
Moreover, i would say that if you are not good at doing a setup for the chassis, you could find here the chance to fill the gap!

You get easily better times with better chassis setup than with little more power.


If we would some day get engine tweaking in LFS the first thing I would do is that I'd go searching that best engine setup. That one which consumes least fuel, has best reliability and highest power and widest torque qurve.

Engine setups would be pure black magic for most of us. Changing ignition timings, valve opening/closing timing, ecu parameters. woosh! No chance. Though changing to the lightest flywheel is something I could do too

Again. It would take way too much time to make it realistic/usable and balanced system. It would be more useful to get other setup possibilities for the racing cars, like racing shocks with more parameters.

Only "engine tweaking" I would approve (if asked ) would be the fuel mixture setting (lean/rich) and same kind of grille tape system that is in Nascar. And that mixture setting would have no noticeable effect on performance. And that grille tape system would maybe get some 0,1 seconds per lap. With hotter engine.

Quote from Dasser :

Why not make it possible to tweak the engine???
Like lower or raise turbo boost, on turbo cars, more boost makes the engine heat go up and wears the engine over short time, and lower boost makes the engine last longer, maybe...
And tweak of the camshafts intake/exhaust.
Idle rpms and top rpms.
And adjustments for the fuel pump...
Just simple or advanced engine tuning...
And maybe upgrades to buy for the racing credits, turbo, performans upgrades.
And the possibility of changing spoilers or adding spoilers for better looks and traction.

Sounds like you need to play Street Legal Redline Racing. :P

Has all the tuning options you asked for there.

Quote from hinirags :

So do you often hear someone with a 205Gti doing rally saying "in need to pass from 3,234 to 3,254 gear ratio"?

No, set tranny with precision that actually is in LFS is quite impossible, but in real life is gearing set especially for current track, but engine has still SAME SETTING.....

Quote from p5ychom4n :

Sounds like you need to play Street Legal Redline Racing. :P

Agreed!

Quote from hinirags :

Contradictory I think
Moreover, i would say that if you are not good at doing a setup for the chassis, you could find here the chance to fill the gap!

You might wanna read that again.... I said UNTIL the "uber set-up" is found

:iagree: completely with you.....

Quote from RMachucaA :

sure MR. S1 licensed.

Engine tuning does nothing to improve driving skill, hence drifters love it. With suspension tuning, you have to learn the right lines, setting up the suspension properly for the fastest time\cleanest lines, its a combo of you and the car, getting the power down is just as important too, what good is a 10000000 HP engine if you cant setup the car to deliver proper grip to use it? hence drifting became an excuse for that :P.

And the ultimate goal is to become a better driver, this is not achieved by whos the fastest in a straight line, or who has the fastest car.... if your slow MR. S1 licensed, practice your lines, learn from other people and improve your skills, then you wont be using the engine tuning as an excuse.

I dont mean to be derogatory in this post, but i may have... im just tired of tuner types around here, so... sry bout that.

I am not gonna get into a drift V grip arguement here but drifters to have do have driving skill. Maybe on lfs u dont need that much "driving skill" but if u see the professional drifters then they do have incredible skill to do wat they do.
history lesson for u here - drifing came from japan, it came from street racers racing down mountain passes called touge (pronounce toe-gay) the roads are very twisty and usually only 2 lanes wide. Obviously to be the fastest round hairpins the car was set up to slide, like rally cars, this meant sliding the back of the car round corners, this was about 20 yrs ago, over that time it has developed to the d1 gp everyone knows nowadays. Yes drifing round a wide open track may not take as much skill, but it still takes skill. As said i dont want this turning into a drift grop arguement im just stating that drifters do have skill. Even though i enjoy watching drifting and drifting in lfs the cars they have are good enugh and dont need any more power really.
I am very into the japanese car scene which is about tuning cars and racing them drifting them etc, so would be nice for games to have that - oh wait just go by nfsu or w/e for that, although its pretty crap, although nfs most wanted alrite, neway thats off topic.
My only view on tuning cars it have them remapable eg a1 gp all cars are alike, but they must remap those engine for different circuits. I cant say that they do but in alot of race cars the engine are set up different for different tracks. I also no that this wuld b reli hard to model and would mean waiting for final S2 wuld be longer or wait for S3 (hopes there wil be) wuld b longer so it is no reli viable.
So all in all - tuning as in forced induction (turbos and superchargers for those who dont no) etc is out of the question would ruin lfs but i wuld like to see engine mapping, but i no its not viable to do so. so reli lfs shuld stay excatly how it is - with only suspension being able to be changed.

I would like to agree with you. But I couldn't read half of it.

And drifting isn't faster then taking a good line, which is why you never see race drivers doing it if they can help it. The only reason for drifting is because it's a crowd pleaser. Watching a car drive around a track can get dull, if the same car flys around all the corners sideways it adds to the enjoyment. Much like flat landing on super bikes. No need for it, but it looks good so it turned into a "professional sport", before it was just something to get the crowd going after a race.

But can you please use English. Who needs encryption to make documents secure, just get someone to type it in this short hand junk.

And "Drift Vs Grop", why not just say Grip.