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RIP2004
S2 licensed
You know you are a LFS fanatic when you are still here
RIP2004
S2 licensed
Quote from Scawen :All our servers are being physically moved from one place to another.

physics, physics
RIP2004
S2 licensed
Hi there,

I don't think paying a monthly fee would change anything. The dev team and Scawen wanted to do it their own way and wouldn't change development speed, if there was more money. Money isn't the problem, as LFS seems to be more and more just a side job or hobby in free time like a lot of open source software.
They do it their own way. The way they decided. So no money would be used to get more employees or do it as a fulltime job with just the usual holiday per year.

I am completly happy with iRacing. Sim Racing isn't as popular as other genres and therefore a monthly fee is the right way IMO, if you use it the way iRacing does. New, very good quality real tracks and new real licenced cars every few months with money used for licences and development teams.
I see the monthly fee for serious, fair and organised races every few hours like in a league and gladly pay for content I am interessted in.

This way I can wait for the new patch another 3 years without bothering I will for sure test it out early 2009

Cheers
RIP
RIP2004
S2 licensed
Hi Scawen,

looking forward to the update. Sounds good and still a lot of work.

Just one little question:

The new tyre physics: do they solve the problem about longitudinal grip with heavy spinning wheels? Is a hard full throttle start now significantly slower than a controlled throttle start as it should be? Should be quite obvious in the "driving school" and the lesson about acceleration.

This would be also quite useful for a traction control to help with

Thx.
RIP
RIP2004
S2 licensed
2:29:30

Have fun and good luck
RIP2004
S2 licensed
@Scawen

Great News

I really was hoping for something like that.

One little question on new physics:

will the problem of massive spinning wheels and their ability of acceleration be solved? Full throttle starts now slower than controlled throttle starts?
Did sound like that as was stated, that LFS tyres often were to grippy ...

Thanks
RIP
Last edited by RIP2004, .
RIP2004
S2 licensed
Same thing I noticed a long time ago. I tested a lot with XF GTI.

In RL this often causes accidents. People go fast in a corner and suddenly have to brake hard. This way even a FWD understeery (setup) car will oversteer with weight shifted hard to the front and backend getting very light, while inner tires begin to lock.

Not so in LFS. You can go around on the test track. It is very very hard to provoke real oversteer by braking or just lifting.

Even electronic systems were adjusted in RL to avoid such things. Corner Brake Control (CBC) will look after inner wheels to prevent them sperate from locking/slipping.

Cheers
RIP
RIP2004
S2 licensed
Great news.

I was hoping for a tyre physics update. It's better than any content, because all the current content gets new that way.

Hopefully to much grip longitudinally with much wheelspin will be solved as well as the generally a bit icy feeling and low grip problem for a lot of situations.

If both are solved, this will be a great patch which makes LFS all new somehow.
All the cars will behave different then ...

Cheers
RIP
RIP2004
S2 licensed
Quote from Bob Smith :This has been posted so many times, yet my own testing in LFS has led me to the opposite conclusion. Excessive wheelspin does produce less longitudinal force in LFS, try the BF1 at the dragstrip with and without TC for evidence. Fastest times will be achieved with TC set at the optimal slip ratio. The question is that perhaps the dip after the peak isn't deep enough, doesn't happen fast enough.

Hi there.

It might produce less longitudinal force, but as you said the effect seems to be very small unlike in real life. The BF1 begins to change directions if you start without TC. So a worse acceleration result may also be caused by the left/right tail sliding. At least some of the result. It's really hard to accelerate full without TC and without spinning

The important point is: it should be quite noticable with every single car in LFS and not only with the BF1, which has extreme differences between wheelspins TC on or off.

Try the same with the road cars in LFS and there won't be a really noticable difference. But Scawen said already he is aware of that problem a long time ago. So at some point there will be a change.
Now with the next patch would be quite a great time for it, as it features ESP/TC and ABS in the Scirocco. And a real simulation of Scirocco TC would be effected nicely by punishing full throttle w/o TC accelerations.
To really show of these systems, better tyre physics would be fantastic.

Regards
RIP
RIP2004
S2 licensed
Great translation
RIP2004
S2 licensed
How much better is G25 FF compared to the driving force pro? I read it feels a lot better.
But then it's still only almost as fast as in RL. Is there an expensive wheel, which really is as fast as in RL? Some special thing for more than 500 €?
RIP2004
S2 licensed
As I said, it really can be fun
RIP2004
S2 licensed
Hi there.

First of all I'd like to say I never saw an accurate FF wheel yet. Always FF seems to be a LOT slower than in RL.
In RL the wheel helps you to correct a drift itself somehow, you just have to correct a bit and let the wheel slide through your hands.

PC Wheels FF (I use a Microsoft Sidewinder Forcefeedback and several Logitech Wheels, mostly my Driving Force Pro) will go in the correct direction, but to slow.
You can tune the force up very high and it is artifically hard to steer, but still it is slow compared to a real life car wheel.
Therefore you have to correct a drift yourself ... it just helps indicating it.

So, I don't like it. It just feels too artifical right now compared to real life.
If you just notice the limit by your force feedback, it is to late already to be fast.
Even in RL it isn't the fastest way to correct the car because you feel the instability.
It is much faster to correct the car BEFORE it gets instable and drifts. Every drift will cost time, every correction will cost time. Therefore you have to KNOW what the car will do and how fast you can go. Feeling the problem with FF doesn't help. Already lost time.

I think it helps to drive without FF, because you get more sensible for the car reactions without the help of feeling it through FF. You have to react quicker and avoid instability even more, because it is more difficult to tell.

I suppose this is why a lot of very fast driver don't use FF. They simply don't need it and trained themself more sensible without the help of it.

In a real car it is a different matter. You feel SO MUCH MORE in the wheel. Every bit of information.

So in future if FF gets much more complex with really fast engines it will propably be a great thing. At the moment I don't like it and I really don't think it makes you faster.
It may be fun for a lot of people though ...

EDIT: btw this is exactly why I think drivers of racing simulations can be great real racing drivers. They learned to react without all the feel for the car. If they can transfer that knowledge to a real car, they will drive more efficient than someone who just depends on the feeling or his bottom
If you know what the car will do and just correct small bits with your feeling, you will be really fast.
Last edited by RIP2004, .
RIP2004
S2 licensed
Quote from PaulH :Firstly I have been drinking, so I apologize if my post is more incoherent than usual.

I understand what you are saying, I too am a little disappointed. It just sickens me sometimes to see the reactions of this community.
I don't post that regular and my last post which displayed disgust I think is because I have had a bad day or two recently combined with attitudes of this community. I think this is why I fired off so quickly.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I appreciate that, and I am sorry for any bad feelings caused. Sometimes some things need to be said...

We all have a common interest here, LFS, so I end with :grouphug:

Hey, no problem I didn't take it bad. I just wanted to explain myself. As I said it is ok for Scawen to do it this way. But sometimes it is still a bit dissapointing ...
Move on to a fantastic Scirocco and perhabs later the year my long awaited longitudinal traction fix

Regards
RIP
RIP2004
S2 licensed
RIP2004
S2 licensed
@paulH

I never said moving into a new house is a tiny bit of work. It is quite a lot, but nevertheless no reason to completly resign everything else.
And I am not moaning, I am just a bit dissapointed that absolutely no time was dedicated to finish this long awaited patch.
I don't talk about 8 hours of work. Just a little bit everyday ...

As I said I demand nothing, because I have paid. I paid for LFS as it was a few years ago. So not being ungrateful, just dissapointed ...
And of course Scawen has a life too. Just LFS is more of a hobby than of work in terms of dedication, which sometimes is even better but sometimes worse.

@smove

I never said moving is no or little work. See above.
And why giving him no chance? It is not whining.

It is just, that it would be modest to inform the long waiting community just as the postpone.
I think the postpone was a good and brave decision and completly right. This was modest.

But then dissapear with no word wasn't. It isn't the end of the world, but I think it isn't ungrateful, no sign of disrespect or anything to be dissapointed. It is just straight honest.

@dark times & senn:

Jealousy? On what?
You just smell dissapointment, no more no less.
Arrogance?

Just respectful and grateful Honesty about disapointment and a hint about lack of information as beeing a bit off.

I am sorry that I am no bootlicker who always says "Yes, and Great ... and we always had what we wanted ...".
For people who are never dissapointed and always happy with everything nothing has to be developed anymore and with this show off of dedication and love to LFS (everything doesn't matter, everything fine, get yourself 10 years for next patch) I would be really sorry for LFS.

It is just not right to keep people waiting for something that won't happen
Last edited by RIP2004, .
RIP2004
S2 licensed
Hi everyone, hi scawen,

It is his decision. We have no employment contract with him as most people have for their work. So we have to accept that.

I think everyone understands the need for a bigger house etc. (congrats to that btw. and have fun with your familiy in it) And nearly everyone who moved has some bad experiences with internet providers.

But as you said the lack of broadband internet wasn't a big problem. It doesn't affect programming itself very much, just the upload time for patches.

Most people who work and moved into a new house just before christmas would use their christmas holiday to start unpacking and do some things.
A lot of people (if not most) would start working again early in january and finish their house after work everyday.

Many people would take one additional week of vacation into january to finish the most important things and then start to work again.

A few people would perhabs take a second week of vacation. This would be 1,5 weeks of december and 2 weeks of january ... so nearly the vacation of one year for a usual employee. No more holiday for the year.

Ok. This was the plan. Start working again "full time" mid january.

But this just didn't happen. Not even Z11 with some small fixes in the meantime (15 days). By end of january we would have had at least a few more test patches if not the final patch. You don't have to leave the house for work. Just 1 or 2 hours a day at computer and then doing the house?

Ok then. 2 aditional weeks to end of january. Not enough.
Mid february then.

1,5 weeks in december + 4,5 weeks in january + 2 weeks in february = 8 weeks AFTER beeing in the new house with all the packages.

This is not intended as an offense. I like LFS a lot and I think it is a great piece of work for one programmer. So thanks again Scawen.
I fully understand the need for a new house and I believe the broadband problems which are really funny to read about, but nearly irrelevant for work.

But this is not the same attitude towards work than 99,9% of working people have towards their work. They can't take weeks and weeks of vacation for child, kitchen, moving etc.
Again ... no offense intended, just an observation that your attitude is a lot different. And nobody can demand more.

But i think it is quite ok to be dissapointed especially if it said "early in the next year" at 19th of december on front page. It seemed that there isn't THAT much of bugs and features left. Enough to be to late for christmas, enough for a week or two propably. But early next year would be to mid january, not march propably.

Obersaviaton: quite another attitude towards work ... your decision and really quite obvious and nothing new
Nobody can demand more. No employment contract.

Improvement suggestion next time: just drop a line at the forum - development will be continued in 1 or 2 month. No need for personal explanations. That doesn't really concern us, even if a lot of people want to hear it and it is really nice of you to share the reasons.
But people who waited a lot for scirocco wouldn't have been that disappointed after postpone before christmas.

Just my 2 cents. Keep up the good work mid february I really hope for a lot more than the scirocco (2008 ) this year.

Regards
RIP

EDIT: btw. I program myself for university and often had similar conditions. Having to finish some piece of software at home in the next two month. I know how it can be a pain in the ass to motivate yourself. Getting at the computer to continue programming can be quite hard if a lot of things wait for you that are quite more important or more fun.
But my person in charge would have kicked my ass if I said I had to move and therefore couldn't work at it for 8 weeks
So I hadn't the luxury of saying ... hmm wait till I want to continue. And I even didn't get any money for that
Last edited by RIP2004, .
RIP2004
S2 licensed
I hope for Improved longitudinal traction curve ...

Next two patches will take a while, I guess

I think it would have one of the biggest effects of the list, because it's an improvement of the basic tyre physics, which affects everything ...
Last edited by RIP2004, .
RIP2004
S2 licensed
@zero :

Sorry, you do But don't worry. The difference isn't as big as I thought at first.
But about 20% wheelslip (so not locked but spinning slower than car is moving) is even better on the dry. It results in about 10 to 20% shorter way. So this would be about 4 or 5m from 100 km/h or about 65 mph.
Not bad, but not best
RIP2004
S2 licensed
@ice :

You are mixing something up

ABS is bad on snow, but good on the dry and really good in the wet. At least not worse than a good driver, better than a bad driver.

On Snow manual braking WITH locking wheels will result in a shorter braking way. The snow is pushed in front of the tyres and helps braking. You can't steer but you can stop earlier. So it depends if you should release the break.

Really modern ABS (ABS Plus) though will lock the wheels automaticly for short periods on snow to push it in front.

So modern (!) ABS is better in 99% of the cases than an average driver and most times as good as a pretty good driver.
Racing ABS is always better ...
RIP2004
S2 licensed
@nightshift : Exactly my points

TC should be worse at start with current physics, if I am not mistaken. Every bit of throttle lack will result in less acceleration right now.

You are right. It would help if pushing to hard. But isn't ESP supposed to help there? Well TC and ESP are nearly the same today. I think ABS and TC are somehow integrated into ESP.
If we talk with exact terms propably both systems would help. ESP would brake single tyres to stabilize the car and TC would cut throttle.

The main aspect of TC though is accelerating under difficult cirumstances like rain, snow etc. which aren't there in LFS.

So TC would help in some situations ... yes. But you could only get half of the original benefit. It should also help at accelerating from stand. Not as good as a professional driver but better than a full throttle starter.

About ABS ... yes exactly. As long as you just watch the braking distance I didn't see a difference. There should be one. This isn't really relevant for racing as locked wheels are really bad there. No control/steering, destroying/overheating tyres ... => bad corner entry => slow.

But physically you should notice a shorter way with ABS or controlled braking vs. wheels locked braking.
So perhabs longitudinal performance of tyres isn't just wrong at acceleration/wheelspin but also at wheelslip and force transfer.

___________

There will be consequences for both systems. Even right now. But they aren't as much as they should be In the case of ABS this isn't really a big point because the brakingway difference between controlled braking as everyone does in races and ABS braking is irrelevant small. Its more about control and less concentrating on braking as the original ABS was developed for.

In the case of TC it would be a bit dissappointing as it would be just like the old TC in FZ50. It took away throttle in corners ... so no new development there.

EDIT: a corrected longitudinal acceleration with spinning wheels would change a lot in my opinion. Not only the effectiveness of electronics. It would also change general behaviour in corners. Right now there should be to much longitudinal force if sliding with spinning wheels for example. With corrected physics even sliding/drifting should feel different, because there is less power to accelerate the car. Wheelspin Sliding would be even slower I guess.
All cars would feel quite different in a lot of situations. Not only the start.
Last edited by RIP2004, .
RIP2004
S2 licensed
@bbman

Wrong Impression I discussed about it years ago. Its my personal main flaw in LFS. I love the LFS physics, but this longitudinal acceleration thing really annoys me
So it has nothing to do with new electronics, but it would be a good time to fix that issue finally.
ABS and locked wheels are another thing, but this didn't bother me for a long time.

I just find it very boring that everyone just starts full throttle at online races. It was quite an improvement that reaction times came in ... at least a bit of difference at start.
I talked about that several years ago ... I discussed it with scawen when the "driving school" part came in.

I'd just love to see that fixed.
The other reason was just Scawens comment itself.

Quote from frontpage :
We are trying to make a good simulation of the traction control systems and the stability control systems, well known to be a very good feature of VW cars.

So this is somehow a reason for Scawen to show those good features. And traction control would be just a bit pointless now.
Last edited by RIP2004, .
RIP2004
S2 licensed
Somehow fun to test it I tested on Car Park with 2 pylons and XF GTI (no ABS). Set off to limiter in second gear ... than brake hard at pylons.

First setup : very strong brakes

=> immediate lockup at braking ... skid marks

Second setup: a usual brake setup at about 700 NM, a bit more

=> stopped at the end of the skid marks

Saw no difference at all

But it won't matter really if ABS isn't that much worse than good braking. Its useful to safe tyres ...

More impact would be a fix to accelerating problems as the standing start would be more of a challenge and even more difference than now with different reacting times.
Skill would be usefull for a good start then ... not just reaction.

And traction control would help
RIP2004
S2 licensed
@shotglass
Well, it isn't really that important how they exactly work. Because no one of us will propably be able to explain it into detail and it is just to much and somehow a bit offtopic.

So there is no sense in discussing if there is friction or not or culomb friction applies.

FACT: heavy spinning wheels (>> 20%) won't transfer force very well.
FACT: in LFS they DO accelerate quite well

=> Traction Control right now would be somehow useless.

FACT: locked wheels won't have the best braking distances, neither on dry nor on wet. There can be a big or small difference to a good racer (or ABS)

I tried it a again a minute ago and there is virtually no real difference most of the time between braking with locked wheels (brakes at >> 1000 NM) and braking more sensible.
Show me plz a replay where you managed to brake visually better and it can't be explained by reaction time.

So I won't say FACT here, because I tried it but may have done something wrong. Just show me how you do a lot better from 200 to 0 than really locked wheels.

Agree on the Facts?

EDIT: Perhabs braking distance isn't that relevant. There are lot of different statements in the web. And many say there is just a small difference on the dry. On the wet there is always a huge difference ...

See here for example : http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.g ... e/Mechanics/frictire.html

On dry just a drop off from 0.7 to 0.6 ... still should be visible from 200 to 0.

More important is the problem of acceleration to show off VWs traction control.
Last edited by RIP2004, .
RIP2004
S2 licensed
No problem. I often learn a lot new things ... as long someone can really explain why or name sources

I think this is only really relevant for a lot of water. Not just a little wet road but really heavy raining and therefore danger of aqua planing all the time but nevertheless ABS will help with the braking way then because of this artificially caused aqua planing ...

But as LFS has no rain or wet roads yet this isn't really important at the moment.
It would be just nice to have a shorter distance with ABS than with locked wheels. I just tested it again in car park and there really is nearly no difference to me.
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG