Something different than multiquote posts for narrow-minded netherlands? No !
Something different than multiquote posts for narrow-minded netherlands? No !
what?
At the moment i have nothing else to do , than quote a lot of posts ,so people that are not able to see the connection between two single posts are able to understand what I mean. Get it ?
A mis-shift is different - you are without power for the 0.x seconds. But shifting a fraction of a second later still leaves you with power for that period and THEN the usual period of shift without power. During which you're still moving. So you don't lose 0.x seconds of laptime by shifting 0.x seconds later. You might lose 0.x seconds of laptime if you mis-shift and are without power for the usual shift time + ~3x seconds.
You only lose 0.x seconds from a late shift or a mis-shift if your speed instantly drops to 0 and instantly back to where it should be for that period of time.
E.g. When uninterrupted gear changes became common in F1, it was a saving of ~0.1 seconds per shift. i.e. the 0.1 second torque-less period was removed. Idiots then multiplied 0.1 x the number of shifts per lap to get the improvement in lap time. But the ACTUAL improvement was far far less, because for the original 0.1 seconds they were still moving at essentially the same speed. Thus each shift (with the new system) saved them 0.1 seconds of gear moving time, which saved them 0.0001 seconds of lap time per shift.
You can probably remember vaugely where the shift light was from the old patch. eg the FZ5 is right on the rev limiter, whereas the XRT is about 500rpm off. They're close enough for decent racing 
Fair enough, but I was talking about the little red light in LFS.
I don't usually look directly at the tach either, but it's easy enough to notice when the needle gets near the redline without focusing on it. 
it changes with the gear-ratio. that's what all the fuzz is about.
but the easiest way to see where the shiftpoints are, is to drive a lap with auto-tranny.
Those shift points that auto gears chooses are terrible for racing IMO, especially while cornering, as all the autogears do is hold the car in a too higher gear so the engine is going 'AAAHHHHHH!!ONE' until you are out of the corner.
dude, you do realize that by saying shiftPOINT I'm referring to a certain amount of revs, not a certain point on the track?
Now it's time to lose the gear indicator on car's with H-pattern gearboxes.
That's what I was thinking last time I played LFS as well
I'll have to guess what gear I'm in
We dont have shift-lights in the formula series I am racing in. I can still shift gears without problems. I know when to shift... because... well... I hear and feel it :P same in LFS.
I think there's a lot of confusion going on here.
1) The ideal shiftpoint is the RPM value where changing to the next gear will deliver more torque than the current gear does. This RPM value is different from gear to gear (shifting 1st to 2nd has a different ideal shiftpoint than 4th to 5th) and throttle position (though you're generally only interested in the WOT shiftpoints).
2) The ideal shiftpoint cannot be felt, heard, seen or otherwise humanly measured while driving the car. It needs to be externally calculated or measured from dyno charts.
3) Once you have calculated the ideal shift point(s), you can either set up a shiftlight to light up at the correct RPM value (or nearly correct RPM value, if it doesn't differentiate by gear), or you learn the value(s) and shift by looking at the RPM gauge or by knowing the engine pitch at the ideal-shiftpoint-RPM. This is what "shifting by ear" refers to and has nothing to do with figuring out the ideal shiftpoint per sé.
4) Hitting the ideal shift point accurately is generally grossly overrated and not terribly important for good laptimes at all, as Tristan has nicely pointed out.
5) The big deal about the LFS shiftlight is that it doesn't light up at a pre-set (and possibly inaccurate) RPM value, but dynamically performs the ideal shiftpoint calculation in realtime, even depending on throttle position. When the LFS shiftlight lights up, then that is the de-facto ideal shiftpoint. Not earlier, not later. It is not a simple redline warning.
I don't know if such systems exist in real life, but if they do, they're probably only used in top-level racing. Maybe nobody actually bothers though, since as per point #4 hitting the ideal shiftpoint isn't as important anyway, especially if you factor in human reaction time on top of that.
Point #5 is also why not having dyno charts available was until now (or still is?) not a big deal. Dyno charts help figuring out the ideal shiftpoint - why bother with that when LFS already does the work for you?
So in summary, the shiftlight being gone is a concern because it told us the ideal shiftpoint, but it is not a big concern because the ideal shiftpoint isn't that important anyway.
Besides that, currently you can still use the automatic gearshift help to figure out the ideal shiftpoint RPM value. Yes, the automatic gearshift in LFS always shifts at the ideal shiftpoint. This behaviour is of course less than ideal, because in some situations you don't want to shift at the so called "ideal" shiftpoint.
Hope that sums everything up.
1) The ideal shiftpoint is the RPM value where changing to the next gear will deliver more torque than the current gear does. This RPM value is different from gear to gear (shifting 1st to 2nd has a different ideal shiftpoint than 4th to 5th) and throttle position (though you're generally only interested in the WOT shiftpoints).
2) The ideal shiftpoint cannot be felt, heard, seen or otherwise humanly measured while driving the car. It needs to be externally calculated or measured from dyno charts.
3) Once you have calculated the ideal shift point(s), you can either set up a shiftlight to light up at the correct RPM value (or nearly correct RPM value, if it doesn't differentiate by gear), or you learn the value(s) and shift by looking at the RPM gauge or by knowing the engine pitch at the ideal-shiftpoint-RPM. This is what "shifting by ear" refers to and has nothing to do with figuring out the ideal shiftpoint per sé.
4) Hitting the ideal shift point accurately is generally grossly overrated and not terribly important for good laptimes at all, as Tristan has nicely pointed out.
5) The big deal about the LFS shiftlight is that it doesn't light up at a pre-set (and possibly inaccurate) RPM value, but dynamically performs the ideal shiftpoint calculation in realtime, even depending on throttle position. When the LFS shiftlight lights up, then that is the de-facto ideal shiftpoint. Not earlier, not later. It is not a simple redline warning.
I don't know if such systems exist in real life, but if they do, they're probably only used in top-level racing. Maybe nobody actually bothers though, since as per point #4 hitting the ideal shiftpoint isn't as important anyway, especially if you factor in human reaction time on top of that.
Point #5 is also why not having dyno charts available was until now (or still is?) not a big deal. Dyno charts help figuring out the ideal shiftpoint - why bother with that when LFS already does the work for you?
So in summary, the shiftlight being gone is a concern because it told us the ideal shiftpoint, but it is not a big concern because the ideal shiftpoint isn't that important anyway.
Besides that, currently you can still use the automatic gearshift help to figure out the ideal shiftpoint RPM value. Yes, the automatic gearshift in LFS always shifts at the ideal shiftpoint. This behaviour is of course less than ideal, because in some situations you don't want to shift at the so called "ideal" shiftpoint.
Hope that sums everything up.
Dooooooooode, that was brilliant. 
... and I'm so glad I didn't have to write it because I have tendonitis.
... and I'm so glad I didn't have to write it because I have tendonitis.
Yes, i do mate, what i am saying is for instance, if you reach the optimum revs to shift while steering around the corner and accelerating then the autogears will hold you in that gear until you are out of the bend, plus with autogears there are the times on some cars and tracks where the auto box cannot decide what gear you should be in depending on your setup, so it will shift 3rd-4th-3rd-4th-3rd-4th until it decides that 4th is the one it wants.
If ya can't lift her, don't shift her!
Oh, wrong thread...
Oh, wrong thread...
Hehehehe...
I think the removal of the shift light is a good thing. It was way too precise to be realistic on road cars. Having it set up at a pre-set RPM would have messed things up more because the shift point would not be that exact RPM depending on the setups.
@ Bandit77 : Of course you can not tell the ideal shift point solely by ear only. Buttfeel also helps a lot. However I'm pretty sure no human can nail every gear at the exact shift point. Moreover, as someone pointed out, if you shift when the light comes up, you are already shifting too late : at the moment it lights up you should already have switched to the next gear.
If it's possible to shift +/- 200 rpm away from the "optimal" shift point on a bike without tacho or shift lights, I'm pretty sure it's possible in LFS too.
It was well explained by Tristan and Android. I think we don't have to doubt the truth on every new page again.
If the shiftlight tells you where to shift (or should have shifted) once, you know it the next time. Once the gears are set, these points do not change anymore... only if the powercurve changes, which it doesn't in LFS.
How would you know it's the ideal shiftpoint?
And I say it again: most production cars and the very most production bikes have their powerpeak close to the redline and fairly long gears which would result in a theoretical ideal shiftpoint after the redline or even limiter, so you shift at the redline anyway.
What the hell are you doing here. Talking about something so obvious. Is it that hard to figure out where to shift? LFS gives you information about power and torque peak points. For eg. XRT:
Power:
183 kW (245bhp) @ 6019 rpm
Torque:
325 Nm (239 lbft) @ 4585 rpm
Try harder if you can't or give up and use automatic gearbox.
Skill is what separates better drivers from worse. If you can't figure out your gearshifts with the available amount of information and unlimited practice time chances are you have none.
Power:
183 kW (245bhp) @ 6019 rpm
Torque:
325 Nm (239 lbft) @ 4585 rpm
Try harder if you can't or give up and use automatic gearbox.
Skill is what separates better drivers from worse. If you can't figure out your gearshifts with the available amount of information and unlimited practice time chances are you have none.
The information of peak torque and peak power is insufficient to calculate the optimum gear change point. In fact, peak power and peak torque are probably the most useless bits of information ever published.
I think you already stated yourself that it is not really necessary to shift at the optimal point. Peak power and peak torque points give you some idea of optimal gear change points whereabouts.
The ability and willingness to read/listen to, think about and try to understand what others write/say separates more valuable discussion partners from less valuable ones.
If you haven't figured out what determines the shiftpoints with the available amount of information in this thread by now, chances are you're just not able to understand.
Try harder if you can't or shut up.
No.
XRT with standard setup shifts between 7500 1. gear and 6800 4.gear in automatic.
Where's the shift light?
(103 posts, started )
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