the difference between a fictional book and a fictional film is what exactly? Especially as they have both found their way onto the other media format.
You ask for respect for 1 religion but disrespect for another.
To a non religious person such as myself both are equally false/stupid/daft/whatever but I show them equal respect (not a lot, but I tolerate both to a minimal standard).
You seem to feel that one is more justified than the other - but I believe both are fairy tales, so I cannot honour your request on that basis, and worse, I find your sentiment of disrespect quite off colour in that you requested me not to respect a religion.
That's exactly the kind of thinking that turned me off religion in the first place, you just can't have it both ways.
Have you researched the religion you want me to disrespect at all, the religion that is, not the fairy tale it is based upon?
Becky, you've made it quite clear in other threads on religion that you're not exactly interested in respecting various beliefs. You've been very consistent about it, actually very insistent. So this latest post I find a little odd or confusing coming from you. That's fine from me, but it's still curious.
How can Jediism be noted as being as serious religion as Islam or Christianity? It can't. It hasn't been practiced for hundreds and hundreds of years, and its based on something that all Jedis VISUALLY saw so it's a the belief that a movie was REAL? It's like Wiccanism or whatever it's stupid these people think they can actually cast spells on people.
What difference does it make if a religion is based on the philosophy of a real person or fictional characters.
In fact, a real person had to propose the philosophy that is being espoused by the fictional characters in the film so in actuality both "religions" would be based on philosophies originally theorised by real human beings.
Why is Scientology accepted as a religion? How is it different from the Jedi "religion" as described in the star wars books? apart maybe for the fact that the author of one fully intended it to be a religion and the other didn't???
What if George Lucas decided to write a book and found a church based on the principles of "Jedism" ?? Would that validate it as a religion?
The major religions of the world are all (at best) based on the writings of people that weren't even alive at the time of the alleged events that justify the clasification of the said beliefs as religions.
The principle really comes down to:
What do we accept as justification of a belief system that is fundamentally based on faith?
Well, both are religions. They share a similarity in that they are both very recent, modern manifestations. They differ in the various details of their beliefs, but both recognise an all powerful force which contains and maintains the material universe but isn't contained by it. In many ways both Scientology and Jediism are basically modern repackagings of older beliefs, Scientology apparently contains elements of Buddhism and Hinduism, Jediism seems to blend Taoism, Pantheism and a bunch of other stuff. There's nothing very much 'new' here. It's all pretty much spiritual business as usual.
Scientology is as bullshit as Jediism, but apart from the placenta eating , Scientology is actually more believable. How can someone worship a movie so much that they believe they are one of these fictional raced people? It's insanity. You can't compared it to RELIGION because it's different on SO many levels. Jediism isn't a religion, it's just an insane persons way of life.
If Jediism is a religion then my love of cars is also a religion and also my use of computer TV and my games collection.
There are certain music albums which I'd personally consider to be of more spiritual value (to me) than various religious texts such as the Bible or the Bhagavad Gita. On the other hand, I know people who've said they weren't religious at all until they'd read the Bible and something inside them just switched on. People are strange.
At the end of the day you can't say who's right and who's wrong because experience triggers different things inside each of us. Maybe I'm being harsh on the Jedi guy, or maybe I'm not giving future religiously inclined Harry Potter fans a chance. To me these potentials are very silly and the last thing you want a religion to be is silly. Religion is supposed to be about profound things. I can get frustrated or annoyed (not too often really, it usually just washes over) because what I hear coming out of various religious/spiritual circles can sound like garbage to me... I don't count my own experience of the world as garbage. To me the world is a fairly profound place. I may agree with certain ideas contained in certain religions, even Jediism, but I'll never give my experience over to any religion. I can tolerate religion but at the same time I'm not very respectful of a lot of these institutions (edit: or certain aspects of them, or certain individuals who represent them). I'm am very respectful and value very much the ideals of freedom of expression and freedom of religion however, I'm not sure whether that's a contradiction on my part...
I won't allow people who don't follow a religion to tell what is a religion and what isn't. It's like someone who doesn't drive telling someone who does which cars are crap and which cars aren't.
But the guy who drives may have only driven one kind of car. If that's the case he can only talk about that one particular car and won't be able to compare with other cars.
Religion is like that for a lot of people. They are simply born into it and are made to follow it their entire lives. Continuing the metaphor, they are told that the car they're driving is the best one, while all other cars are crap (a pretty biased review in my opinion). Other people get to try out lots of different cars, but can't decide which one they like the best. Some people never buy a car their whole life because they don't want one. They're fine just walking. Or they don't like the pollution.
The purpose of my post was to state categorically that each religion, both Jedism and the Mohamic religions deserve equal respect, not that they deserve respect, I highlighted the point of view that to the non-religious both are fairy tales, and therefor one is no more deserving than the other.
The only thing which makes Islam and Christianity a serious religion is that some people take it seriously, well this guy and his church take Jedism seriously. Once again, neither is more deserving of the title "serious", you either believe it or you dont.
Without going too in depth into dimensional physics, or social politics, i'll just say that history is no more than a perception of things to have gone before. All we have is our forefathers word and a rock sample (which, incidentally, contradict each other). Time is not part of any existing belief system that I know of, and therefor it is not rellevent. EDIT: If it was, then in the Christian faith Moses wouldn't have lived to be over a 100 at a time when people rarely lived to 40.
I asked a question earlier to those arguing against Jedism of whether they had looked into the religion at all, or where they basing their intollerence of another religion on their own perception and understanding of it having not done any research at all? Has anyone here, for example, read the holy texts of the church in question?
I'm really not sure it is. The Church of Jedi was founded by some weird loner Welsh kid, in Biblical times the correct English word to describe him would likely have been a "Merlin" (hermit of the forest). Merlin's are reveared in Welsh culture, are a fundamental part of Welsh folklore in the tale of Owyn Gwyndwr and two Dragons. There are 3 Merlins of historical significance, although in modern times we tend to use it as a name and consider him to have been 1 [fictional] person in a tale of magic, which was originally a metaphor for Roman and later English rule. EDIT: The point being, i'd believe the word of a Merlin before i'd believe the words of a science fiction novelist.
Jedi is not a race. Such poor undertanding of the concept of Jediism perhaps makes your position to debate on them a little less solid, in my eyes anyway.
I believe they call that mechaphilia
This is religious intollerence. For example I myself do not practice a religion. However...
I was "HEAVILY" educated in the ways of the Protestant church, at the height of it I really did do 3 days bible study a week. I was fully indoctrinated and they even wanted me to join the choir (I could sing once, before all the drugs and cigarettes). I really do know an aweful lot about religion, but there is another point here I want to make and I want to really emphasise it...
From my perspective, reading the views of a practionioner of religion showing intollerence toward the Jedi religion - without even attempting to research (I have not either btw, I just believe in equality) - what I see is religious intollerence. The exact same kind of intollerence that caused so many war in the dark ages - it's the exact same thing "your religion is false, ours is right, we intend to snub you out".
In this day and age, with religion in the minority in the developed and educated nations, those old notions just dont cut it any more.
You want respect for your relgion? Then show respect to others religion too. You're the minority now.
But I would say that Star Wars was clearly a work of fiction - everyone knows that, surely?
Christianity/Buddism/Judaism/etc are historical interpretations of things that might actually have happened. I do believe there was a man called Jesus, and he was probably a really nice bloke. I do believe he had followers, and they wrote what they saw (or, rather, what they thought they were seeing - blinded by belief perhaps?).
To 'believe' that Jesus could do 'miracles' is a much smaller step compared to believing that George Lucas made some films based on an actual reality (even if Jedis have parrallels with existing religious beliefs) because we KNOW it was a made up story. Do people follow the Matrix as a religion because of the religious stuff that went on, particularly the third film?
It doesn't bother me, as I think it's all a load of silliness
this is one of the few things thats impressed me about my sons teenage half sisters education. in my day religious education was about christianity in its broadest form with no seperation of the various varieties such as protestant, catholic, methodist etc.
her R.E. included all the major religions from around the world and she found it quite stimulating and thought provoking (which is a different type of miracle entirely ) in particular she was struck by how much of the relgions was interchangable and how, if you replaced the figure head of one with the name of another religion's figure head, the various teaching etc were acceptable for any religion.
although not religious my self, i'm of the firm belief that if there is a god, then all religions are just different ways of worshiping the same god and each is equally as relevant and true for the circumstances in which it was formed.
The major modern reigions anyway. Things like paganism and buddhism are pretty differeent.
This whole Islam vs Christianity things that's been going since before the Crusades and for whatever reason has flared up again recently I find utterly, utterly pathetic and ridiculous as they're both pretty much the same thing underneath.
Reminds me of the Cat Wars from Red Dwarf - "They had a holy war. One side thought the donut diner hats should be red, the other thought they should be blue".
I have more respect for Christianity than something like Scientology or Jediism, probably because it's been around for a long time and has been a major shaping force in civilisation and the philosophical make up of human beings. That part of it is undeniable. Similarly, going to Turkey and seeing the Hagia Sophia in person is extremely affecting, I mean this building is absolutely impressive, you cannot deny the energy of it. I simply can't imagine what it would have been like to experience first hand as a believer during the height of the Byzantine empire!
Maybe, Jediism over a couple of thousand years will produce some interesting things, not in the least great wars in space fought with colourful lasers. But I'm not going to give any energy to it.
Well as you would expect from me, being the religious connoseuir that I am, i've been reading up on the Jedi religion...
I wouldn't say I was well versed in it's ways, but regarding the legitimacy as a relgion claim being made by several religious and non-religious people in this thread, I still find this point most uncomfortable.
To deny somebodies faith without first seeking to understand it is just wrong, this is why I don't comment on referenced to Hinduism, and make only passing discussion on Buddism. I simply don't know enough, I don't believe any of it and don't need to read up on it to make my own informed choice as to my faith because I rationalise my faith at a higher more conceptual level and am content with my beliefs: Rather, that the lack of beliefs is the only non-arrogant position to take.
However, I find it very difficult to stomach the position taken by many in this thread to discount the Jedi religion without even attempting to learn about it simply because it is "based on a movie".
Actually, when you read into it, no it isn't. Let me quote a few things:
Having established that the Jedi Church itself recognises the films as fictional what exactly is the faith all about?
Luckily the Church provided this handy and easy to read couple of paragraphs explaining it all
So it has a belief system that is closely linked to concept of other religions, and is not based on the film which it recognises as fictional.
So far in my reading I am yet to find anything preaching hatred or intollerence, it all seems to be about the basic acknowledge that we can chose to be good or bad and that that choice lies within ourself for us to make, and it doesnt - so far - proclaim to answer what is right or wrong, if anything, it appears to be quite polymorphic in the sense that old scriptures are not likely to result in hate speach centuries down the line, it's been designed to adapt to social changes, and pretends to be nothing more than it really is.
As religions go, i'd rather have Jedi's running the show than Christians.
