Modern ABS is better. It is even used in some races ... and always an advantage But it is often forbidden to show driving skills instead

LOL at this thread.

reverse driving is getting pretty intense nowadays aint it?

Quote from RIP2004 :

Those opinions about ABS having longer brake distances is out of date.

This was the case with early ABS Systems, which didn't react quick enough.

Today ABS is very fast and will get the tires to about 20-40% slip. 30% would be for the perfect stopping power and a lot better than locked wheels. If it will even get faster, it will be even closer to 30%.

Just watch here at about 2.20:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... Wroes&feature=related

This is a braking test with exactly the same kind of new car and the same new tires on perfectly easy and dry conditions.
In one car wheels are just locked and the other uses ABS.

In the wet the difference is even more significant.

The only situation where ABS is possibly braking less is on snow or a lot of dirt on the street. A locked wheel will then push it in front of the wheel and it helps stopping. So a locked wheels is better in those situation.

Today ABS Plus will be used in cars. This takes into account these situations and will lock the wheels a bit to use this also.

A usual driver will always lock the wheels a bit if braking hard without ABS and therefore have a longer brakingway.
A very good driver can try to get the wheel as close to those 30% as possible. But I bet he won't beat a modern ABS System which interacts many times per second.

So longer braking ways are of the old days where ABS was reacting slowly and only a few times per second. Today it will always be at least as good as a good driver, but most times even better. And nobody has to concentrate ... just hit the brakes hard and you can concentrate on steering and other stuff.

But one thing is right: ABS was developed mainly to preserve the possibility of steering around an obstacle while braking hard and not to have the shortest possible way, because that was at that time not the case. A good driver could do this too by just not locking the wheels ...

One FATAL flaw in your thinking: this only shows what a numpty would do, namely lock the wheels and compare that to the wonder that is ABS... Never trust a statistic you didn't forge yourself...

ABS makes sense if a) you have an unskilled driver at the wheel (which unfortunately most are), or b) you have to steer while braking hard...

Quote from RIP2004 :

A usual driver will always lock the wheels a bit if braking hard without ABS and therefore have a longer brakingway.
A very good driver can try to get the wheel as close to those 30% as possible. But I bet he won't beat a modern ABS System which interacts many times per second.

@bbman : What do you think I wanted to say with this?

Sure, a good driver won't lock the wheels completly for the whole braking distance like in the youtube clip. So the difference won't be as big or he is even as short as the ABS car.
But I would bet he can't beat a modern ABS, which regulates over 10 times a second and can release every single tire break.

Racing ABS Systems, if allowed, are even more efficient. I saw somewhere a clip where Sabine Schmitz (who won the 24h race at Nuerburgring in Germany and was third last year) was happy to have ABS in her racing car. And she IS a hell of a driver.

Take modern very fast cars ... like Porsche for example. ESP (called PSM at Porsche) can be switched off for very fast driving.
Can ABS be turned off in any modern car? Even for a racing track day?
No? Ask yourself why The very old Audi 100 of my grandpa had this feature

Pull the fuse and ABS is off, quite easy.



Still, when it comes to simulation ...

When the ABS hits in, i would NEED to feel it in 1) the brakepedal!! (today's FF don't have it), and 2) in steering wheel.

Well, I think making a mod that ticks the brakepedal is possible to get the feeling. But LFS would have to send a signal out. Too bad i am really not into this things.


How can I corner while ABS is hitting in, and I don't feel a thing about it ... I'd turn it off and feel my wheels block

Old ABS at least will perform with around the same braking distance as locked wheel, a perfect braking without locking remaining a bit better. Now there are abs working better, the ones used in F1 were not so bad even if it felt strange to some drivers (pedal to the metal and dont think!).
Take a normal car on a gravel road, and you see how much it can suck...

Just tested on my car renault megane II and abs works on reverse

Quote from Riel :

Pull the fuse and ABS is off, quite easy.



Still, when it comes to simulation ...

When the ABS hits in, i would NEED to feel it in 1) the brakepedal!! (today's FF don't have it), and 2) in steering wheel.

Well, I think making a mod that ticks the brakepedal is possible to get the feeling. But LFS would have to send a signal out. Too bad i am really not into this things.


How can I corner while ABS is hitting in, and I don't feel a thing about it ... I'd turn it off and feel my wheels block

If you engage abs and steer a bit to left or right, the wheel pulsates, so its pretty easy to tell if ABS is engaged.

Didn't think of that

* you have dutch nick, any story behind that? *

Just for the record, the new Fanatec wheel has a rumble effect on the brake pedal to simulate ABS action. I don't think that is supported in LFS though.

Quote from Interjmt :

Also there is one other side ABS function. ABS also helps you to maintain straight line braking when your car is on different surfaces, for egg. left side on tarmac, other on mud. In such conditions when braking wheels on more slippery surface would lock quicker than on other, so car would start to spin at that direction. ABS as you all already know has ability to apply pressure to each wheel independently so it applies less pressure on those who are on gripper surface maintaining full control of the car.

Nope, actually not. If you have a ų-split situation (different friction on the sides of the car) and ABS would limit all tyres to the maximum slip, it would actually do exactly what you do not want it to do. Because the braking force on one side would be a lot higher because of the higher friction and the result would be a yaw-momentum around the vertical axis of the car, which would result in a self accelerating spin without countersteering by the driver. Thats why some ABS really suck on ų-split, for example the MK6 Ford Fiesta (even the ST i used to have) really sucked on these conditions, on several test i used all the testtrack length and more to stop. Why? Because the Ford engineers where over carefully, they let the ABS limit the brake pressure to the Minimum, to the maximum possible brake pressure without blocking the low-friction side. Result: No yaw-momentum, no need for countersteering but a very long brake distance.

Thats one of the reason there has been a ESP-2/ESP-2+ development, howerer its named in different cars. Its adding steering force to the steering shaft, so the car does the countersteering on its own, while braking as hard as possible and still going in the right direction.

Regards,
Steffen

Quote from Warper :

Nope, actually not. If you have a ų-split situation (different friction on the sides of the car) and ABS would limit all tyres to the maximum slip, it would actually do exactly what you do not want it to do. Because the braking force on one side would be a lot higher because of the higher friction and the result would be a yaw-momentum around the vertical axis of the car, which would result in a self accelerating spin without countersteering by the driver. Thats why some ABS really suck on ų-split, for example the MK6 Ford Fiesta (even the ST i used to have) really sucked on these conditions, on several test i used all the testtrack length and more to stop. Why? Because the Ford engineers where over carefully, they let the ABS limit the brake pressure to the Minimum, to the maximum possible brake pressure without blocking the low-friction side. Result: No yaw-momentum, no need for countersteering but a very long brake distance.

Thats one of the reason there has been a ESP-2/ESP-2+ development, howerer its named in different cars. Its adding steering force to the steering shaft, so the car does the countersteering on its own, while braking as hard as possible and still going in the right direction.

Regards,
Steffen

I imagine the last thing you mentioned be implemented when parking assist becomes more common. The technologies are combined nowadays and that's the beauty of these CAN network systems. The speed/force of the countersteering is what would worry me though. Anyway... that's slightly off-topic.

As for the straightline braking... that might be the case in some cars, but definitely not always as I myself have experienced in a relatively modern VW Polo ('07 model).

Quote from Chris P :

I imagine the last thing you mentioned be implemented when parking assist becomes more common. The technologies are combined nowadays and that's the beauty of these CAN network systems. The speed/force of the countersteering is what would worry me though. Anyway... that's slightly off-topic.

As for the straightline braking... that might be the case in some cars, but definitely not always as I myself have experienced in a relatively modern VW Polo ('07 model).

ESP 2+ including steering force is already integrated in all the new BMW since the E90 3series, I dont know about other brands, i bet atleast Mercedes is already par.

And what do you have experienced in your Polo? Dont really get you

Regards,
Steffen

Tested today on snow my HONDA CIVIC 2008 5D. ABS works in reverse. in LFS it will work too LFS is LFS

Quote from Warper :

And what do you have experienced in your Polo? Dont really get you

While braking on motorway from +/- 110 km/h ABS kicked in, but car didn't maintain a straight line. I had to steer a bit.

Quote from Chris P :

While braking on motorway from +/- 110 km/h ABS kicked in, but car didn't maintain a straight line. I had to steer a bit.

Exactly my point, i prefer the VW version. Most of the people will be able to countersteer a bit (even though i dont know if it should really be called countersteering or just steering in this case) instead of not being able to brake at all (The Ford way of life)

Quote from Chris P :

As for the straightline braking... that might be the case in some cars, but definitely not always as I myself have experienced in a relatively modern VW Polo ('07 model).

Be carefull with modern cars, the abs might using some features of the esp, because on a lot of recent cars the esp option is just a software switch with a few extra sensors fitted.

Quote from BlueFlame :

You can just post the replay, but I suppose you should post your .lyt file too, since i'm sure some people will want to try it

I appologize for not responding sooner, My internet was cut off at home. I'm on a laptop right now.

I'll post the replays and layout in a new thread at some point.

My car is 10 years old and the ABS works in reverse. Don't ask me how I know this, it's a long story.

Quote from ma70nismoEd :

LOL at this thread.

reverse driving is getting pretty intense nowadays aint it?

yeah let's do some reverse driving cup.

RDC

Quote :

yeah let's do some reverse driving cup.

I'll be there with you, too

Quote from BlueFlame :

How can ABS be a nuisence? It's a life saver and only kicks in when you need it so it's impossible for it to become a nuisence.... Your cars ecu must be ****in crazy.

sorry dude but abs on icy/heavy snow condition is bs, i can do alot better without it. It's not bad on dry/wet condition but i still prefer using "my own" foot to brake.

And i really don't see why ABS would not work in reverse... it's kinda useless though lol

Quote from Kazu2799 :

sorry dude but abs on icy/heavy snow condition is bs, i can do alot better without it. It's not bad on dry/wet condition but i still prefer using "my own" foot to brake.

And i really don't see why ABS would not work in reverse... it's kinda useless though lol

Sorry but you are totally wrong!

ABS is very important on wet, icy and heavy snow. Because it allows to fully push the breaks without locking the tieres and you can still stear the car under breaking and reduce the chance to spin. The only disadvantage of ABS is a increased breaking distance in dry conditions.

You may mixed ABS up with ESP (DTC) on icy/heavy snow. ESP should be disabled in these conditions. Read your car's operating manual.

@ice :

You are mixing something up

ABS is bad on snow, but good on the dry and really good in the wet. At least not worse than a good driver, better than a bad driver.

On Snow manual braking WITH locking wheels will result in a shorter braking way. The snow is pushed in front of the tyres and helps braking. You can't steer but you can stop earlier. So it depends if you should release the break.

Really modern ABS (ABS Plus) though will lock the wheels automaticly for short periods on snow to push it in front.

So modern (!) ABS is better in 99% of the cases than an average driver and most times as good as a pretty good driver.
Racing ABS is always better ...

i wonder how long topics we will see when esp/esc (which i guess is a much more complex system compared to an abs) will be released on lfs. looking forward to.. lol