So you guys can call all Mr. Joe drivers idiots and discuss how they can't drive,
But you can't even answer what is the right way to behave in a given situation?
So you guys can call all Mr. Joe drivers idiots and discuss how they can't drive,
But you can't even answer what is the right way to behave in a given situation?
Yes Schumacher has crashed cars with lots of electronics on them, on a race track... I don't think Schumacher needs electronic aids to drive a low powered hatch back down the road without crashing it.
Don't trust them, I know somebody who had the ABS decide he didn't want to brake on his (at the time nearly new) about 2005 Discovery, luckily he was an experienced driver and quickly recognised the fact he had total brake failure in time and was able to drive on the wrong side of the road to avoid the obstacle in question, simply having nothing happening when you touch the brake pedal is the single worst thing that can happen in a vehicle, pretty much any other mechanical failure or driver error will never lead to the same level of damage as brake failure. So if you ask me on a risk vs. benefit scale a system that deliberately causes the brakes not to engage when the driver presses the pedal is a very bad idea unless it is actually fail safe, which it clearly isn't. Issues with ABS systems offering reduced or no braking are not as uncommon as people think, in the GT cars I've worked on (using a production derived ABS system) we've always installed an emergency override/reset switch for when the ABS gets upset, which has been used.
Drivers should be training on the job all year round, by driving, if their cars are sufficiently disconnected that they don't actually have to drive them then they will be incapable of driving them when their computer fails them.
How hard can this be, in very simple terms if the issue is the car is oversteering you want to steer less, or the other way. This should come completely naturally if it doesn't then seriously learn to drive. I really don't understand how people naturally can't grasp this concept. I think power steering and generally disconnected car feel play a large part as well, just like introducing autos, ESP and ABS you take the effort away from driving, disconnecting the driver so much that he can think about something else entirely so when he gets in a flap he is barely connected with a car which gives rubbish feedback anyway. In contrast a car like mine with no power steering and an engine that requires lots of gearshifts (lovely and direct from a transmission mounted stick, another benefit of FR) to get anywhere and save a bit of fuel requires a fair amount of physical effort and lots of concentration to drive, exactly what keeps one ready for an emergency but unfortunately exactly what the majority of the most dangerous road users don't want.
If you really can't work it out car geometry will always be set so that the car will straighten up if you let go of the wheel. Often the fastest way to straighten a car up is to let go of the wheel, you'll often see drifters and occasionally racing drivers doing this, although it is not a natural reaction and certainly isn't what I would be thinking of doing when it all goes wrong.
Now I don't know where you drive, but over here drivers don't get to over the cars limits often enough to train how to correctly counter them. In fact, if they do, they crash, which is quite counterproductive to the learning process.
Happens also with people who drive eighties to early nineties cars where powersteering is the most help they get when driving their car, if they have any.
Funnily, at least from my experiences (being in the passenger seat of my mums car, and observing others, especially in winter), it's overcorrection which causes most of the trouble.
Also, while the electronics certainly do cripple the control over the car, in ordinary, everyday traffic, the upsides certainly outweigh the downsides. Sadly I don't have the statistics, but I for one gess that ABS, TCS and ESP have prevented way more accidents than they caused (as if: which wouldn't have happened if those systems weren't in the car). In fact, I think that those "computer fail" accidents would have happened anyway, just earlier, if those systems were not in place.
Now of course, they take away much enjoyment of driving a car, and having them permanently on in LfS is something that I don't enthusiasticly look forward to (allthough I do find it interesting to see how they work in game, what happens when I reach the limits of such systems etc).
And a last point: if you enjoy being concentrated and on the edge while driving, that's ok. but most people are flummoxed enough by the traffic alone, and to increase safety, I think it's very crucial that they don't have to think about their cars too much.
But isn't that lack of training/teaching? Cadence braking from 70mph on a wet road NEEDS to be part of the driving test. As does 'drifting' and understeer on a skidpad.
Generally my opinion is that drivers need to be taught what to do with their car in extreme situations because the necessary behaviour is different depending on wether the car has ABS/ESP or not.
I remember a quite specific situation where I evaded an obstacle on a slippery road by causing oversteer. An ABS car wouldn't have allowed me to do so and the vehicle would've responded in an unexpected way.
What I'm going for is that drivers need to be taught how their car behaves in an emergency-situation so they know what they have to expect.
However, using systems like ESP you can just teach the average driver that he merely has to stamp on the brakes and point the steering wheel away from the obstacle and the car will use all available traction to make that happen.
That is much easier, much safer and in many situations even better than proper driving without assistant-systems because a driver without ESP only has one single brake channel while ESP can actuate each brake seperately to make better use of the available traction.
ESP is developed by vehicle engineers with 20 years of experience. The brake pedal is operated by people who think vinyls add traction.
Vain
I remember a quite specific situation where I evaded an obstacle on a slippery road by causing oversteer. An ABS car wouldn't have allowed me to do so and the vehicle would've responded in an unexpected way.
What I'm going for is that drivers need to be taught how their car behaves in an emergency-situation so they know what they have to expect.
However, using systems like ESP you can just teach the average driver that he merely has to stamp on the brakes and point the steering wheel away from the obstacle and the car will use all available traction to make that happen.
That is much easier, much safer and in many situations even better than proper driving without assistant-systems because a driver without ESP only has one single brake channel while ESP can actuate each brake seperately to make better use of the available traction.
ESP is developed by vehicle engineers with 20 years of experience. The brake pedal is operated by people who think vinyls add traction.
Vain
Well of course people would benefit from being taught better, it's about the most obvious thing to anyone responsible who has taken the driving test and has the slightest interest in driving standards.
Some real elitist "everybody needs to be taught so that they can be almost as good as I naturally am" waffle here, though.
Obviously driver aids are what they say they are, if we mere humans were as flawless as some of you gods of the craft appear to be, then they wouldn't be of any assistance at all.
Knowing what to do isn't the same as doing it under pressure every time, though. The level of training and practice required to get someone to be able to "panic" (i.e not in a controlled environment- at a random time in a normal journey) brake in the wet and stop/evade with the same effectiveness in a non-abs car as you could in an ABS/ESP car every single time is astronomical. Such is the effectiveness of these systems that for most of us it's impossible to just develop the level of skill required to do it on a skidpad in a controlled environment. Let alone in the heat of the moment with the radio on, family yapping etc etc etc.
A mistake is a mistake. You'd need to be 100% flawless at matching the ABS/ESP system on a skidpad to convince me you'd never make an error in a real emergency situation, you'd also need to be a T1000 robot.
A skilled/practiced/tutored driver might recover quickly, but his recovery is from mistake which has cost him who knows how many metres.
I know I at least would want ESP+ABS on any family car I ever own. But them I'm a ham-fisted oaf.
Some real elitist "everybody needs to be taught so that they can be almost as good as I naturally am" waffle here, though.
Obviously driver aids are what they say they are, if we mere humans were as flawless as some of you gods of the craft appear to be, then they wouldn't be of any assistance at all.
Knowing what to do isn't the same as doing it under pressure every time, though. The level of training and practice required to get someone to be able to "panic" (i.e not in a controlled environment- at a random time in a normal journey) brake in the wet and stop/evade with the same effectiveness in a non-abs car as you could in an ABS/ESP car every single time is astronomical. Such is the effectiveness of these systems that for most of us it's impossible to just develop the level of skill required to do it on a skidpad in a controlled environment. Let alone in the heat of the moment with the radio on, family yapping etc etc etc.
A mistake is a mistake. You'd need to be 100% flawless at matching the ABS/ESP system on a skidpad to convince me you'd never make an error in a real emergency situation, you'd also need to be a T1000 robot.
A skilled/practiced/tutored driver might recover quickly, but his recovery is from mistake which has cost him who knows how many metres.
I know I at least would want ESP+ABS on any family car I ever own. But them I'm a ham-fisted oaf.
It looks awesome though...
performance sucks, but you want to know what the worst part about it is?
.. the price.
it's a 4 cylinder, meaning that it might as well be the equivalent of $10,000 a cylinder!
well, I guess then thank God it isn't a V12!
performance sucks, but you want to know what the worst part about it is?
.. the price.
it's a 4 cylinder, meaning that it might as well be the equivalent of $10,000 a cylinder!
well, I guess then thank God it isn't a V12!
Don't know the prices in the US, bot over here, that's quite reasonable, even though the car itself isn't really. Also, there's a tad more to a car than cylinders, allthough, as it's admittedly a VW, not much, unless you pay extra.
Speaking of which, the 40.000€ is with all the bit's and pieces glued on, the basic 122 HP costs about 25k€ if you keep everything standard.
Speaking of which, the 40.000€ is with all the bit's and pieces glued on, the basic 122 HP costs about 25k€ if you keep everything standard.
I knew you were going to ask that.
Yes I do - it means that there is no physical connection between the input and the response. Example : Foot hard to the floor on the brakes, however, the computer controls how much braking pressure is applied, and thus stops the wheels locking up and shortens braking distances (I think)
"Drive-By-Wire" just means that the pedal has no direct control over the brakes - a drive-by-wire throttle would work the same way as a G25's wheel works - potentiometers.
How you can say ABS isn't good is ludicrous, though - ABS modulates each wheel individually, which is something NO-ONE can do because you have one pedal - and so are limited by the wheel with the least traction - I'm all for more concentration while driving etc, but at the same time I would much rather a computer acts rationally in deciding how much brake to which wheel every few milliseconds, than having a BMW 318 with a dodgy spoiler with all 4 tyres locked up heading straight for me.
Not so keen on ESP, I must admit - simply because there are legitimate situations when I need the car to under/oversteer etc, and a computer screwing this up will not help - but then again for a lot of drivers they simply thing "shit hazard!" and turn the wheel and slam on the brakes etc - in this situation they need something which CAN work out what to do for them.
I am all in favour of "over the limit" driver training - the first time you slide your car (properly) could also be the last moment of your life - actually getting people experienced in what to do when their car is under/oversteering is much much better than having someone say they'd "steer into the skid" without actually being able to realise what it even means.
I would make sure that ALL learners have skid-pad training subsidised by the government - i.e. a 2 hour session on a skid-pad. But then I would also make it so that once you pass you can drive, but that you must do Pass-Plus within 6 months, and then go on to do the advanced driving course if you get more than 4 minors on the test...
I do wish my car had ABS - mainly because if i see an obstacle the first thing I will do is slam on the brakes, and then deal with the tyres if they lock-up - if I try to guess the perfect amount to brake I will either be away from the limit or lock-up anyway, whereas ABS would brake the pretty much perfect amount either way. But it'd need a switch, and people would need to know how to use it (i.e. on snow turn it off!).
EDIT - For anyone wondering - i'm not a hypocrite, i've already got my Pass Plus application in.
How you can say ABS isn't good is ludicrous, though - ABS modulates each wheel individually, which is something NO-ONE can do because you have one pedal - and so are limited by the wheel with the least traction - I'm all for more concentration while driving etc, but at the same time I would much rather a computer acts rationally in deciding how much brake to which wheel every few milliseconds, than having a BMW 318 with a dodgy spoiler with all 4 tyres locked up heading straight for me.
Not so keen on ESP, I must admit - simply because there are legitimate situations when I need the car to under/oversteer etc, and a computer screwing this up will not help - but then again for a lot of drivers they simply thing "shit hazard!" and turn the wheel and slam on the brakes etc - in this situation they need something which CAN work out what to do for them.
I am all in favour of "over the limit" driver training - the first time you slide your car (properly) could also be the last moment of your life - actually getting people experienced in what to do when their car is under/oversteering is much much better than having someone say they'd "steer into the skid" without actually being able to realise what it even means.
I would make sure that ALL learners have skid-pad training subsidised by the government - i.e. a 2 hour session on a skid-pad. But then I would also make it so that once you pass you can drive, but that you must do Pass-Plus within 6 months, and then go on to do the advanced driving course if you get more than 4 minors on the test...
I do wish my car had ABS - mainly because if i see an obstacle the first thing I will do is slam on the brakes, and then deal with the tyres if they lock-up - if I try to guess the perfect amount to brake I will either be away from the limit or lock-up anyway, whereas ABS would brake the pretty much perfect amount either way. But it'd need a switch, and people would need to know how to use it (i.e. on snow turn it off!).
EDIT - For anyone wondering - i'm not a hypocrite, i've already got my Pass Plus application in.
That's putting it mildly.
And politely.
Those kind of posts in this topic are so narrow-minded that they've spectacularly failed to take into consideration the fact that for the vast, vast majority of people, they want to get from A to B in comfort and safety in a reasonable time. They do not drive for pleasure, and do not take pleasure from having to drive.
Even hinting that things could be better without ABS is delusional - and that's coming from someone for whom the ABS cuts in woefully early on their car.
Actually I was meaning road cars but it got stuck in the keyboard.
I can't remember which one exactly, it was a sort of supercar which he kept in a scrapped state in his garage for some years before giving it away.
So by your line of reasoning you don't want anything in your car that has a chance -no matter how slim- to fail.
Basically you don't want a car, maybe a plane instead, where every system is duplicated to further reduce chance of failure (but be warned that doesn't push it to zero)
And, if you think I'm buying the tale about your mate as a serious benefit vs risk estimate, then you are putting yourself about on the same level of those who brag about their 1.1i shopping cart doing 200 kph (downhill).
I guess you lost the bit about 'driving on the limit'. Well driving everyday doesn't by itself prove that you can handle whatever life throws in front of you when you're behind the wheel.
And, most road cars I've seen have on board diagnostics to detect ABS failures and disengage the system when needed.
He did crash that Fiat van last summer.
+1. I don't enjoy driving. It's something I have to do between doing things I want to do. It might be more enjoyable if the roads weren't so full of traffic all the time, and the traffic systems so bloody complicated.
Relax it looks like a nice car..
And it's a XFG tuned.... Who here doesn't like the XFG for races?
And it's a XFG tuned.... Who here doesn't like the XFG for races?
(thisnameistaken)
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by thisnameistaken : Wrong thread!
* glances at thread title *
The VWS is an extra, a seized opportunity. Just don't use it if you don't like it
The VWS is an extra, a seized opportunity. Just don't use it if you don't like it
Though Vain has already offered a good reply about this, let me clarify my position a bit:
I'm all for better standards of driver education, it's just I can't really see it happen IRL. Investing in people is one of the most expensive things to do: even the best ones learn relatively slowly and tend to forget if they are not kept 'up-to-date'.
Today, there are all kinds of people out there who mantain outdated knowledge about vehicles and swear by it even if it's now completely wrong and even dangerous. While new drivers forget about basic traffic rules the moment they step out of the door with their license in their pocket.
Electronic systems are easy (to a degree) and cheap way to get round this problem. They're clearly not absolute perfection but they're closer to it than any human and much more dependable.
In a world with so many cars and so much hurry, I feel safety is the most important thing to focus on - even if it means that those who are passionate about cars and want to have fun with them, will have to make some sacrifice.
Pretty much the same specs as my VS V6 Commodore cept for i'm RWD
The Scirocco is just another FWD shopping cart, but being european based I guess the devs have to concentrate on european cars that the real car manufacturers will allow them to use without royalties. I lament the Devs have not upgraded the RAC to the later version that the Finns made.
I'd rather see a BMW M3 or M5 at least they have some guts, and the devs do know ppl at BMW, perhaps its to cater for the lfsers that have sciroccos in real life who knows? Who really cares? Its another car in lfs
Relative to what??
It's a road car, what do you expect it to weigh? It's actually completely average for a hatchback type car.
Anyway, people put too much stock on absolute weight. I recall a video of a track comparison between a 350Z, M3, S2000 and Boxter and the two fastest cars (over several laps) were the 350Z and M3 both of which outweigh the S2000 and Boxter by over 200kg. The only one of the cars to suffer any real issues was the M3 which basically just had too much power and didn't corner all that well compared to the others, (especially the S2000 which was all over it in the corners).
oh yeah? what's a "proper" race car?
If it doesn't excite you, don't drive it. Simple really.
The other way to look at it is that you only need the oversteer of a RWD car because you went in too deep/hard and can't make the corner without sliding the rear. In other words RWDs are good for those who can't really get corner entry right in the first place
Apart from torque steer, I don't see any real inherent issues with FWD cars. There is nothing inherent in RWD that actually makes such a car better handling or faster around a track, (all other things being equal), and they're only "more fun" if you get a kick out of hanging the tail out, (which is an inherently slow way to drive anyway).
You're only mentioning the Bluemotion because of Top Gear.
O RLY?
Try this:
Using LFSTweak, make the XFG and XRG the same weight, with the same power, and same size tires. Hotlap both for a while. Which do you think will be faster?
Do the same with the XRT and FXO. Which do you think will be faster?
As Tristan already pointed out, FWD cars ask too much of the front wheels. With a RWD car, you get more traction on the drive wheels as you power out of a corner, not less. Not only does this give you a better drive, it actually helps rotate the car, especially since the front wheels are only doing the steering.
Well considering that the XFG is as fast or very close to the XRG on nearly every LFS circuit despite giving away 10bhp I'd put my money on the XFG.
But that's irrelevant anyway as LFS isn't actually accurate enough to be used as conclusive proof.
As I stated, I'm perfectly aware of the technical issues of FWD, I'm just stating that in modern cars it's not nearly as much of a handicap as it was back in the 80's or 90's even (back in the days put a 150bhp engine in a FWD car and it would track all over the place, these days it's perfectly possible to have 240bhp or more and have no problems). Just because a car is RWD it is NOT guarenteed to perform better than a FWD car in the real world. Every car design principle has it's advantages and disadvantages, how an individual car will perform is down to how those pro's and con's have been addressed and to a large extent how much money was put in to the design and development.
what pisses me off these days is that so many RWD cars use electronics to try to stop them behaving like RWD cars, presumably because they are "aspirational" cars who's target buyers have bought them after being brought up on FWD and demand they feel the same without realising that it's that difference that made then so desirable in the first place.
and yes the scirocco is heavy but so are all new cars due to crash regs etc. if you are in the uk go along to an mot station and ask to look at their vehicle weight chart and compare how much each new car has got from the one it replaced.
and yes the scirocco is heavy but so are all new cars due to crash regs etc. if you are in the uk go along to an mot station and ask to look at their vehicle weight chart and compare how much each new car has got from the one it replaced.
Quite right, and I'm sure the fact that the XRG is carrying an extra 210 kg has nothing to do with it.
Just because a car is "modern" doesn't mean it can defy the laws of physics.
Scirocco - Yawn
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