That is one thing I've been thinking about doing, but those cases are not cheap. The case I have now is a stand up, or 4U case, which should slide into one. I may have to cut the excessively over sized drive end of the case off, though to make it small enough for a smaller cart case.
I will also need to cover all the vents with filter material. It is also going to get really hot once it is crammed into a case like that, so I may need to have an air conditioner blowing cold air into it.
And no way am I leaving this in the trailer when not in use, so it all has to be rolling, and able to roll down a grass hill so I can get it into the back door of my home, no way am I carrying a 100+ pound server cart down the stairs. Still pondering weather carrying 10 separate computers into the house at the end of every event would be better or worse...
Also the event I want to do this at, was moved to mid August, so if I did it, I would need this to work at about August 1st to have some time to get it all ready to go.
I will also need to cover all the vents with filter material. It is also going to get really hot once it is crammed into a case like that, so I may need to have an air conditioner blowing cold air into it.
And no way am I leaving this in the trailer when not in use, so it all has to be rolling, and able to roll down a grass hill so I can get it into the back door of my home, no way am I carrying a 100+ pound server cart down the stairs. Still pondering weather carrying 10 separate computers into the house at the end of every event would be better or worse...
Also the event I want to do this at, was moved to mid August, so if I did it, I would need this to work at about August 1st to have some time to get it all ready to go.
Last edited by SimulatorRental.com, .
And that place will not build it either...
I would still like to do an event with this in late July. But it will have to be without the trailer. Which means I need to find a rolling cart to put the server in, that will protect it from elements/dust, and keep it cool. Anyone have any ideas?
Or, I may need to just use separate small cheap computers............... and sell off the server.
I would still like to do an event with this in late July. But it will have to be without the trailer. Which means I need to find a rolling cart to put the server in, that will protect it from elements/dust, and keep it cool. Anyone have any ideas?
Or, I may need to just use separate small cheap computers............... and sell off the server.
No hurry anymore... the guy that was going to build the trailer bailed on me, will not build it.
I have one more place that might do it, otherwise I am back to looking for a trailer builder.
I have one more place that might do it, otherwise I am back to looking for a trailer builder.
Scawen,
Awesome on the possible Test Patch.
The first event I want to use the trailer for is July 30th... but there are events before that I want to use it for. Just not sure if the trailer guy can build it by then, plus the build quote is about twice what I have in the bank. The first BIG CLIENT event is actually next month but I doubt that will happen in time, and they so far have only requested the slotcar track, so I should still have the funding from that event even without the simulators.
As for the other comments, On the contrary,
I intend to have LFS Logos on the trailer itself, possibly run replays as commercials when no racing is going on, and maybe even sell $1~2 USB disks, with LFS on them (to cover cost of USB disk). I will at the very list have the LFS.net url posted...
I already have a commercial license of LFS, which is more than S3, and will be even more when I upgrade that license to S3. There are certain rules to follow for that. Anyone not showing the logo is pretty much violating the commercial terms, and needs to be reported.
I intend support and plug the software as much as I can to anyone that has not heard of it... Scawen has the best running software I've pretty much seen in forever, and I first saw code on an Atari 400 home computer in the early 1980's.
Awesome on the possible Test Patch.
The first event I want to use the trailer for is July 30th... but there are events before that I want to use it for. Just not sure if the trailer guy can build it by then, plus the build quote is about twice what I have in the bank. The first BIG CLIENT event is actually next month but I doubt that will happen in time, and they so far have only requested the slotcar track, so I should still have the funding from that event even without the simulators.
As for the other comments, On the contrary,
I intend to have LFS Logos on the trailer itself, possibly run replays as commercials when no racing is going on, and maybe even sell $1~2 USB disks, with LFS on them (to cover cost of USB disk). I will at the very list have the LFS.net url posted...
I already have a commercial license of LFS, which is more than S3, and will be even more when I upgrade that license to S3. There are certain rules to follow for that. Anyone not showing the logo is pretty much violating the commercial terms, and needs to be reported.
I intend support and plug the software as much as I can to anyone that has not heard of it... Scawen has the best running software I've pretty much seen in forever, and I first saw code on an Atari 400 home computer in the early 1980's.
Last edited by SimulatorRental.com, .
As of a few nights ago, I may have a new large client for my slot car track rental, if it works out I may be able to fund/build the trailer even sooner then planned.
If the slot track goes through it is very likely that the simulators would also get setup at the same events. If so, it will be AWSOME public exposure for LFS in USA, it may even result in a tiny amount of TV time.
If the slot track goes through it is very likely that the simulators would also get setup at the same events. If so, it will be AWSOME public exposure for LFS in USA, it may even result in a tiny amount of TV time.
4) Sounds too complex for now... it can wait.
In fact it will be a few months until I am operational, so no hurry on any of it, just wanted to get the need, known.
Screen selection by opening and dragging it to the right monitor works fine. Using Shift F11 works, and it even seems to keep the monitor I moved it to if I go to true full screen, only have a few monitors to test right now though, so who knows what will happen when I get 12 screens going. If I use one of my TV's I have here, the monitor detection in windows gets confused and numbers the monitors wrong, but that is not related to LFS.
In fact it will be a few months until I am operational, so no hurry on any of it, just wanted to get the need, known.
Screen selection by opening and dragging it to the right monitor works fine. Using Shift F11 works, and it even seems to keep the monitor I moved it to if I go to true full screen, only have a few monitors to test right now though, so who knows what will happen when I get 12 screens going. If I use one of my TV's I have here, the monitor detection in windows gets confused and numbers the monitors wrong, but that is not related to LFS.
I am using ONE machine to do this, in the attempt to save money, save wattage for generator use, and have less pieces to move indoors for indoor events, and when the trailer is in storage.
There are likely many better ways I could have tried this, but all the mini PC I could find that were up to the task, were over $1000. So I used components that came out a few years ago. Plus, I get to use the system for CAD work when they are not racing.
The downsides of this older computer is SATA2 and PCI2... and it is very HEAVY.
Two, Opteron 6386 SE 16 Core Processors, so 32 Cores, more then 8 to 12 instances of LFS will use. Plus it is on a Quad processor board, so I can double that when I find two more processors cheap.
Two, AMD FirePro W9100 16GB DDR4 WorkStation Graphics Cards, so 32GB of Video Ram more then needed. Each of these cards has 6 Display Ports, and can handle 6 4K monitors but only 30hz I am not using 4K so each can get 6 going at 75hz or more. Freesync is SUPOSE to work, but I've been waiting for AMD to figure out why it wont for a few months. I may need to liquid cool these if I cannot fit an air conditioner next to the server in the trailer, or both.
128GB of RAM, I went with error correcting, if I need faster ram, this motherboard can also use gaming ram.
Using A 8TB HE HDD that I wish I did not buy, great drive, but TOO BIG for my use. I was waiting for price to drop more on SSD, however if I do not need to run VMware only need 1/12 of the drive space, so I am going to raid them for speed later, not space.
There are likely many better ways I could have tried this, but all the mini PC I could find that were up to the task, were over $1000. So I used components that came out a few years ago. Plus, I get to use the system for CAD work when they are not racing.
The downsides of this older computer is SATA2 and PCI2... and it is very HEAVY.
Two, Opteron 6386 SE 16 Core Processors, so 32 Cores, more then 8 to 12 instances of LFS will use. Plus it is on a Quad processor board, so I can double that when I find two more processors cheap.
Two, AMD FirePro W9100 16GB DDR4 WorkStation Graphics Cards, so 32GB of Video Ram more then needed. Each of these cards has 6 Display Ports, and can handle 6 4K monitors but only 30hz I am not using 4K so each can get 6 going at 75hz or more. Freesync is SUPOSE to work, but I've been waiting for AMD to figure out why it wont for a few months. I may need to liquid cool these if I cannot fit an air conditioner next to the server in the trailer, or both
.128GB of RAM, I went with error correcting, if I need faster ram, this motherboard can also use gaming ram.
Using A 8TB HE HDD that I wish I did not buy, great drive, but TOO BIG for my use. I was waiting for price to drop more on SSD, however if I do not need to run VMware only need 1/12 of the drive space, so I am going to raid them for speed later, not space.
Last edited by SimulatorRental.com, .
At first I was going to use VMware to run multiple machines, but while I was testing VMware you released a version of LFS that could actually do this with out blinking all of the monitors like crazy when you change focus between them. So I tried it out, and it so far as I can tell will work just fine, excluding setup being a bit cumbersome each time. Also recently I posted about a graphics error that popped up when using vmware due to the new graphics changes, so right now VMware is not actually working, and I need to figure out how to get something like PCI pass through to work on 8 machines with only 2 video cards to get that to work.
I am liking running it all on one OS though, easy to move mouse around, and I only need 1 mouse and keyboard to run all of them.
Because I have been reinstalling a lot, due to new versions and test versions, I have been re-using the same installation when running the game, so only 1 install. Separate installs have not been required yet. The advantage with this, is once I change settings, I do not have to do it again for each cockpit seat. I am actually surprised it works so well doing it this way!
I was thinking of having a separate copy to save different driver names etc, but the game already has multiple driver name support.
Because I am running it all on a single install, the game only saves one wheel setup, although I have not yet tried to see if controller axis data gets saved with driver data?!!? maybe?!
I am not even sure it is saving it, as only one ever works when I first load them up. Still messing with this...
Not knowing for sure what wheel will be plugged in in what order also compounds the issue.
However, it should be no big deal to walk up to each one, wiggle the wheel, and say you get this one, click, wiggle another wheel you get this one, click... etc... Having to press each pedal would be annoying.
It would be nice if the hardware all the wheels, sound, and monitors, themselves had unique ID's in them, so the software could look for and go by that, but even VMware cannot do that due to manufactures not properly making their products. If you can pull that off, that will be a feat!
In my case, I will have either 8 or more monitors with audio out to speakers, or headphones, or even both so people can choose.
Right now if I run multiple LFS, they ALL play from the same source, even if I change it each time just before I load the software, there was a time if I changed it, it would "sometimes" stick and I could get 2 or 3 separate audio devices to work. So even if that was working, it is very easy to screw it up.. and have to start over.
There are a handful of games where you can go to an audio menu and change devices for each separate device, sound, music, voice chat, and microphone.
Yes, "gently" is what I had in mind, something that will not rip kids fingers off, but will still guide their hands to center, so the wheel is not 360 when they start driving again.
Thanks, I have done MANY trailer concepts the last few years, some too big, to heavy, to expensive, or to complicated to build... still not even sure this one can be built, still waiting for quotes. I have the most hope for this version because it is the smallest I have drawn yet
What I was envisioning is if you clicked the FF device button, it would automatically select the 4 to 6 axis that go with it. Less button pushing. Especially when I have to setup 8 to 24 wheels.
Heck the button could be larger, and be a part of, or at least use the text from, the devices found list as well. I really wish I could go by serial number on the device so I knew what device went with what physical wheel with out having to turn each wheel... then maybe each driver name in the game could be "Saved" with a wheel memorized too it. So I just have to load a game with driver name Machine 1 Machine 2... etc... then have the wheel, monitor, and audio output device saved to it. Then if I lose power or system needs to be rebooted in the middle of a 2 hour event I do not have to spend a half hour setting it all back up again.
REALLY need something with the audio device selection. But that can wait until after the VR stuff... although it might help when selecting VR audio output.
Can the wheel be programed to automatically return to TRUE center?
After a crash that needs to reset the car, or reset the race, kids often have the wheel rotated 360 degrees when they start, thinking the wheel is straight on, but its not.. sot hey go slamming sideways into the wall or other cars. This may also be required for VR!!! as someone may have the wheel upside down but it might feel right with out looking at it.
So, maybe something like...
If race restarts - wheel to center
If car resets - wheel to center
Once the Audio and Wheel selection is setup right, and I get the trailer built to haul the simulators around, I can finally start doing simulator events. The image is of the current trailer concept that I hope the trailer builder can actually build.
Heck the button could be larger, and be a part of, or at least use the text from, the devices found list as well. I really wish I could go by serial number on the device so I knew what device went with what physical wheel with out having to turn each wheel... then maybe each driver name in the game could be "Saved" with a wheel memorized too it. So I just have to load a game with driver name Machine 1 Machine 2... etc... then have the wheel, monitor, and audio output device saved to it. Then if I lose power or system needs to be rebooted in the middle of a 2 hour event I do not have to spend a half hour setting it all back up again.
REALLY need something with the audio device selection.
But that can wait until after the VR stuff... although it might help when selecting VR audio output.Can the wheel be programed to automatically return to TRUE center?
After a crash that needs to reset the car, or reset the race, kids often have the wheel rotated 360 degrees when they start, thinking the wheel is straight on, but its not.. sot hey go slamming sideways into the wall or other cars. This may also be required for VR!!! as someone may have the wheel upside down but it might feel right with out looking at it.
So, maybe something like...
If race restarts - wheel to center
If car resets - wheel to center
Once the Audio and Wheel selection is setup right, and I get the trailer built to haul the simulators around, I can finally start doing simulator events. The image is of the current trailer concept that I hope the trailer builder can actually build.
The first wheel loaded, and used by LFS, seems to guess right as to what is the wheel, gas, brake, clutch.
So I am wondering if it would be possible to keep track of the ff device that each axis goes with, as the wheels are added/refreshed.
If so, then the FF device number choice box should be moved next to their axis buttons. So when you select the FF Device, it automatically picks the axis that go with it. And if it guesses which is wheel/brake/etc wrong, you can then continue to manually change it.
So I am wondering if it would be possible to keep track of the ff device that each axis goes with, as the wheels are added/refreshed.
If so, then the FF device number choice box should be moved next to their axis buttons. So when you select the FF Device, it automatically picks the axis that go with it. And if it guesses which is wheel/brake/etc wrong, you can then continue to manually change it.
I disconnected my connecxion device, and my G25 since the current Logitech drivers that work with the g29 are not working with the g25, so I cannot fix the axis, and there were only 2 force feedback choices, not 3... so I cannot use the g25 wheel.
The two G29 wheels are still a little confused as to how to allocate the force feed back between them. It seems to react correctly sometimes, but every now and then the wrong wheel seems to bump or react. Mostly the force holding the center and end points seem to only work on one wheel at a time. I am still messing with it, but something just isn't right.
EDIT:
I am going to assume I have it working...
I need to not use my G25, and I was doing something backwards.
Will post more ideas on this in the new P thread.
The two G29 wheels are still a little confused as to how to allocate the force feed back between them. It seems to react correctly sometimes, but every now and then the wrong wheel seems to bump or react. Mostly the force holding the center and end points seem to only work on one wheel at a time. I am still messing with it, but something just isn't right.
EDIT:
I am going to assume I have it working...
I need to not use my G25, and I was doing something backwards.
Will post more ideas on this in the new P thread.
Last edited by SimulatorRental.com, .
Tested on my multi user server.
3 Games running at the same time
1x G29
1x G29
1x G25
Also have a 3D connecxion device connected that is adding some additional axis, will disconnect and try again.
It is very difficult to setup multiple games with so many axis...
The force feed back is confused with what instance of LFS to associate with. For example while driving with the G25, one of the G29 wheels was spinning around in response to the car handling.
The G25 throttle and brake pedal both move the same axis. It does not appear that they will separate.
3 Games running at the same time
1x G29
1x G29
1x G25
Also have a 3D connecxion device connected that is adding some additional axis, will disconnect and try again.
It is very difficult to setup multiple games with so many axis...
The force feed back is confused with what instance of LFS to associate with. For example while driving with the G25, one of the G29 wheels was spinning around in response to the car handling.
The G25 throttle and brake pedal both move the same axis. It does not appear that they will separate.
I do recalibrate my wheel now and then in lfs, not really sure if I need to.
What bugs me about using Logitech wheels in LFS is when other people play on my system a lot of the time they start driving with the wheel upside down in the game, but right side up in reality. Usually this is due to the wheel just being rotated 360, it looks like it is right side up but its not... the end points seem to stop working after a while. It needs to find the center when it re-centers better...
I am still trying to run multiple instances of LFS games on ONE server, without using VM ware. When you have multiple wheels plugged in, it is confusing to configure them. Because you have to select each axis individually, it would be nice to just pick a "device" and have that instance of LFS use it. Preferably when the game loads. Same thing with SOUND Out Put devicse.
What will ditching the calibration do when multiple wheels are plugged in?
I only have 3 wheels right now, but I can test it with 3 wheels, and maybe buy the rest soon. Eventually I want to have up to 12 players or even more possible on this server, and sound and wheels selection is the only thing keeping it from working.
Also, I need a /SPEC_ALL command
I really need to learn how to use insim... where is a tutorial?
What bugs me about using Logitech wheels in LFS is when other people play on my system a lot of the time they start driving with the wheel upside down in the game, but right side up in reality. Usually this is due to the wheel just being rotated 360, it looks like it is right side up but its not... the end points seem to stop working after a while. It needs to find the center when it re-centers better...
I am still trying to run multiple instances of LFS games on ONE server, without using VM ware. When you have multiple wheels plugged in, it is confusing to configure them. Because you have to select each axis individually, it would be nice to just pick a "device" and have that instance of LFS use it. Preferably when the game loads. Same thing with SOUND Out Put devicse.
What will ditching the calibration do when multiple wheels are plugged in?
I only have 3 wheels right now, but I can test it with 3 wheels, and maybe buy the rest soon. Eventually I want to have up to 12 players or even more possible on this server, and sound and wheels selection is the only thing keeping it from working.
Also, I need a /SPEC_ALL command
I really need to learn how to use insim... where is a tutorial?
Last edited by SimulatorRental.com, .
That is not entirely true, as of recent tech and VMware versions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opX-AsJ5Uy8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opX-AsJ5Uy8
Well I though the sound was sorted out, and I swear I had it sending two games to two different out puts, but now when I change the default sound source, it also changes all of the games of LFS running, to the same source............
I guess I Need Output selection in LFS...
And still no clue with the original graphics issue...
I guess I Need Output selection in LFS...
And still no clue with the original graphics issue...
Because 1IlL font issues, is my guess.
Last edited by SimulatorRental.com, .
Apparently it is much simpler, but repetitive. I just have to change the default sound device, before starting each LFS instance. It works...
So I guess I am glad I did not just go and buy a copy of VMware Not going to be needing it.
It works...So I guess I am glad I did not just go and buy a copy of VMware
Not going to be needing it.The game runs fine in multi windows, better even... however, there is no way to allocate head phones or speakers to each window... so either everyone hears ALL the sounds from every screen, or just one person hears theirs.
So for me to be able to do it this way, I would need to be able to allocate a specific sound source to each window.
I have also already tried to set 0 reflections, and turn off the calculations... no change.
So for me to be able to do it this way, I would need to be able to allocate a specific sound source to each window.
I have also already tried to set 0 reflections, and turn off the calculations... no change.
That is one reason I am reinstalling, just did this one VM as a comparison, I had all my VMS removed recently to start over.
In the past I had multiple instances open on one machine, but there were many issues doing it that way.
In the past I had multiple instances open on one machine, but there were many issues doing it that way.
Graphics issue with .6K - my first issue with LFS since it came out.
Because of the new version, I just recently did a fresh install of Win 7, and LFS on a new VMware virtual machine. This has worked just fine in the past, but not with .6K....
These unwanted colors change with the virtual sun light, so it is related to the new reflections.
The Virtual Machine has 8GB ram, and 2GB video allocated to it.
The server has enough to run more than 12 of these Virtual Machines at the same time.
The Graphics Card does not really matter, because... Virtual Machine, but it is a FirePro W9100, with 16GB of ram.
I am trying to get graphics passthrough to work with it... which might help.
Would upgrading from "VMware WorkStation 12 Player" to Pro solves this?
These unwanted colors change with the virtual sun light, so it is related to the new reflections.
The Virtual Machine has 8GB ram, and 2GB video allocated to it.
The server has enough to run more than 12 of these Virtual Machines at the same time.
The Graphics Card does not really matter, because... Virtual Machine, but it is a FirePro W9100, with 16GB of ram.
I am trying to get graphics passthrough to work with it... which might help.
Would upgrading from "VMware WorkStation 12 Player" to Pro solves this?
Have not been following the VR helmets since some of them are stupid, and other just cost too much... I do not like not being able to see my wheel.
Maybe they already do this, but;
The VR Helmets will need a web cam, built into them, so you can see through them, or a way to flip the monitors away.
VR will need a button on your hand, to quickly and easily flip between, full VR mode, Hybrid/Augmented Reality, and Full Reality.
Hybrid would allow you to see people next to you and still see the action on screen. This would be done by displaying them on top of each other, transparency style, or Picture in Picture.
If they do this and cost less then a high end monitor, I might consider using it.
Maybe they already do this, but;
The VR Helmets will need a web cam, built into them, so you can see through them, or a way to flip the monitors away.
VR will need a button on your hand, to quickly and easily flip between, full VR mode, Hybrid/Augmented Reality, and Full Reality.
Hybrid would allow you to see people next to you and still see the action on screen. This would be done by displaying them on top of each other, transparency style, or Picture in Picture.
If they do this and cost less then a high end monitor, I might consider using it.
Smallest/Cheapest PC, anyone have LFS running on a micro PC?
What is the smallest PC LFS can run on at a good frame rate, at 1080 or higher.
Anyone get it to run good on any of those micro PCs?
Looking into alternative ways to run 10 or more LFS sims for the cheapest and smallest hardware I can. Right now I am doing it with virtual machines on a single server, but I want to compare it to other ways.
Anyone get it to run good on any of those micro PCs?
Looking into alternative ways to run 10 or more LFS sims for the cheapest and smallest hardware I can. Right now I am doing it with virtual machines on a single server, but I want to compare it to other ways.
messed with it late last night... tried the unity mode in VMware.
This lets the mouse be shared better, but LFS and or VMware still gets confused on wich monitor to run on... and blinks black.
https://youtu.be/_Gv64ql3bPc
Ignore what I am saying, it was late and I was tired...
This lets the mouse be shared better, but LFS and or VMware still gets confused on wich monitor to run on... and blinks black.
https://youtu.be/_Gv64ql3bPc
Ignore what I am saying, it was late and I was tired...
Yea I have VM Ware working... have not had any time to even turn on the server the last few days though. Busy doing slot-car events.
Cable Length is currently my biggest fear...
The way I am currently setting up the trailer, I know that I can get cables to at least 8 of the computers... the other 4... are going to be pushing the length limit.
I will be using Micro DisplayPort, since the video card I am using has 6 of them, and I have 2 of the video cards. The length of these is a little less than HDMI... so I may have to convert to HDMI.
The video card that I am using can power 3 4K Monitors at 60hz, or 6 4K monitors at 30hz. Look up FirePro W9100, MSRP is about $4000 for ONE of them... I paid about $2500 for TWO of them, I couldn't pass it up. And if I really wanted to melt-down my server case, I could fit a 3rd in there. LOL
The monitors I will be using are only 1/3 the pixels of 4K. so I could run 9 of them at 60hz with each of the two video cards. So I should be able to run 6 3440x1440 monitors through each card at 60hz or more.
Also on a MAC, Micro DisplayPort also carries USB... so with any luck, I will find a way to only need 1 cable going to each monitor, but I will likely need to use 4 LONG USB lines to each group of 3 Stations, wich will each have a small 3.0 hub, then each monitor will be plugged into that hub. The Monitor I intend to use has a hub built into it. The new Acer Monitor.
I use to be worried about the SOUND working on each machine, no sound card in the server, but thankfully the Video Card has digital sound in it that gets sent through the video line, and I will have USB head phones anyway. So wound works great.
Cable Length is currently my biggest fear...
The way I am currently setting up the trailer, I know that I can get cables to at least 8 of the computers... the other 4... are going to be pushing the length limit.
I will be using Micro DisplayPort, since the video card I am using has 6 of them, and I have 2 of the video cards. The length of these is a little less than HDMI... so I may have to convert to HDMI.
The video card that I am using can power 3 4K Monitors at 60hz, or 6 4K monitors at 30hz. Look up FirePro W9100, MSRP is about $4000 for ONE of them... I paid about $2500 for TWO of them, I couldn't pass it up. And if I really wanted to melt-down my server case, I could fit a 3rd in there. LOL
The monitors I will be using are only 1/3 the pixels of 4K. so I could run 9 of them at 60hz with each of the two video cards. So I should be able to run 6 3440x1440 monitors through each card at 60hz or more.
Also on a MAC, Micro DisplayPort also carries USB... so with any luck, I will find a way to only need 1 cable going to each monitor, but I will likely need to use 4 LONG USB lines to each group of 3 Stations, wich will each have a small 3.0 hub, then each monitor will be plugged into that hub. The Monitor I intend to use has a hub built into it. The new Acer Monitor.
I use to be worried about the SOUND working on each machine, no sound card in the server, but thankfully the Video Card has digital sound in it that gets sent through the video line, and I will have USB head phones anyway. So wound works great.
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG