Quote from S3ANPukekoh3 :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNN5W_B-Zk

3:28-3:50

Can't believe they even thought about penalizing Hamilton for this, The FIA seriously just lost like a million fans

the FIA NEVER had a million fans to begin with anyway~

Quote from aroX123 :

Yea, i was watching it live, that was a hash penalty.
Massa did the same in Valencia, and didn't get a shit.
I think they gave Hamilton a penalty because then they will have more battling it the championship.

and the penalty, I mean ban, placed on Pantano was even more bullsxxt.
Lets ban him in the sprint race because he tried diving down the inside in the feature, and unfortunately ended up in the back of someone.

If they wanted to use that as a consistent basis on how they would penalise people who tried diving down the inside, then a shxtload of people would be banned from racing...

To me that is just blatantly trying to close up the championship heading into the final rounds...

Quote from AdamW :

amp: AFAIK you can only be penalized for making excessive moves on a straight when you're the lead car trying to block someone from passing you, which was not the case here. The chasing car can make as many moves as he likes, but the lead car can only make one move. In this case there isn't really a clear lead car - Hamilton has a lead at the start of the straight, then relinquishes it and cuts across the back of Raikkonen more or less in one movement - so I can't really see that rule applying.

I think he was refering to after Eau Rouge, when Hamilton was in the lead and weaved right-left-right.

but just to reiterate what I said above, the drive through wasn't handed for this anyway.

Quote from amp88 :

There's been a lot of talk about the overtaking incident but a lot less about Hamilton's weaving after the incident. David Hobbs on the SPEED coverage mentioned this at the time. If you watch it he definitely made 3 moves and possibly 4 on the straight. Raikkonen initially followed him for the first couple so he was trying to slipstream back past. Even if Hamilton didn't deserve the penalty for the chicane incident, should he have got it for weaving?

I thought that might have been just trying to warm his tyres up~? or at least I hoped he was... lol

but no matter what a drive through have been handed down, and apparantly you can't appeal to a drive through penalty so the McLaren's appeal might not be "admissable" or whatever the FIA person said... nothing can be done about it anymore other than knowing in many of our hearts the very exciting racing (which doesn't happens very often) has been screwed by the FIA.

Last edited by JCTK, Tue 9 Sep 2008, 06:30.

Quote from Becky Rose :

There is definite disparity in the rules here, but those are the rules, so Hamilton has not been treated unfairly in this regard, and you're right, it is something that maybe wants looking at. They introduced the drive through at a team when a certain Mssr Schumacher was getting the benefit of some contraversial decisions, they then gave him a few... just quelling the public maybe? *puts on flame retardant suite*

IF they bothered to have done something to it in the past perhaps it would have yield a different result yesterday... but oh well rules are rules...

Quote from GabbO :

No idea, i could not watch Premiere this weekend.
But Niki Lauda , Danner and the other commentator said about Hamiltons manouver, that it was nothing. As many people state.

PS: I would not mind the decision, if they would not be that selective. One time they say: ah, that was nothing, next time: pfui, dont do that, we fine you with your salary for raising your finger, and then sometimes that hard.
I mean they now have the same stewards now ewerywhere, do they take special mentalities each time in different countries when they eat the national foods?

the Belgian wraffle....
perhaps I shouldn't try any from now on... lol

Quote from Hyperactive :

Do you actually know much about racing? Kimi's error on Monaco was a genuine driving error. You could put a penalty for Kimi on dangerous driving but even that would be very iffy. Kovalainen's error on the other hand was pure misjudgement on Heikki's behalf and essentially Heikki went for a pass on Wabeer on a place where he was in no place to go for it. The resulting collision was purely Heikki's fault.

If you try a pass in a place where it isn't possible (check Sato's career for this) you get a penalty and deserve it. If you spin and happen to take other car out as a result you hardly deserve a penalty for it simply because it was a genuine mistake.

---
Well, I'm not surprised by the least. FIA has a record of making only totally random and strange decisions, this is just one more. Hamilton clearly deserved the victory even with all the controversy people seem to find in all this. Yet another decision like this from FIA, I can't believe you are actually surprised about it!

And if anyone thinks that the fight for p1 at spa was anything to compare to the Arnoux/Villeneuve fight then you need to see that one again: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LzCqY8Wg5So. That was two drivers fighting fair and hard for the position - not like two spoiled f1 drivers using all the tarmac in the damn Valley of the Ardennes only ending up annoyed by the fact that the other driver seemed to have managed to use the addon tarmac even more efficiently...

Heikki's misjudgment~?
then surely Kimi's mistake was caused by his misjudgment on the brakes as well~?

so if Heikki didn't dive down the inside but instead he somehow ram straight into the back of Webber would that equal there shouldn't be a penalty~? because then the situation would be basically the same as Kimi in Monaco...

that was what I was thinking when I posted it...

Quote from AdamW :

jctk: I agree on that, but it's not something they can magically change for this particular decision. But yes, the regulations are probably wrong there, it should be 15 or 20 seconds, as that's about how much track time a drive through costs on most circuits.

As for the points about previous decisions, well, I think it's a dangerous road to go down, as it just opens twenty million cans of worms. FWIW I though the Kimi and Massa decisions were sensible. The thing with the Massa incident is it's hard to issue a sanction on the basis that it's Massa's fault - that's hard to prove. So it's a bit tough to issue a sanction that costs Massa in terms of championship chances for an incident that may not even have been his fault. I think it's good for the sport to let that one ride without penalizing Massa, though they could have issued a more meaningful sanction to the *team* somehow.

Again with Raikkonen in Monaco I can see the decision there. It was simply a flat out mistake / accident - either Raikkonen overbraked or he got unlucky and hit something on the track. There was absolutely no reason for him to intentionally take out Sutil, and I don't think anyone has even suggested that was the case. Again I think it would be bad for the sport for him to be artificially hurt in the standings for what was either an honest mistake or an unlucky accident.

For me the thing is, if you establish a perfectly sensible precedent with decisions like that - of not enforcing regulations to the strictest extent in the interests of letting the championship play out fairly - why throw it out of the window when it comes to Hamilton? Aside from the whole debate about whether Hamilton did anything wrong, even if you were to accept for the purposes of argument that he did, the prior incidents clearly set a precedent for not giving Hamilton a points penalty, since the incident in the end did not materially affect the outcome of the race. It's very hard, IMHO, to support *both* the penalties given to Raikkonen and Massa *and* the penalty given to Hamilton. I think the former were correct, I don't think Raikkonen or Massa should have been punished any more than they were...but in that context, even if it were undeniable that Hamilton had been at fault in the incident with Raikkonen, the punishment meted out seems unduly harsh.

the point still was, punting someone off the race vs spinning someone... both are probably unintentional, both were caused by a driver mistake, yet the one with the more serious consequences wasn't punished.

as for the 25sec drive through, surely the one writing the rules should have thought of it after so many years, yet everyone seems happy to not mention it for some odd reasons...

Quote from AdamW :

jctk: the 25 seconds is written into the regulations; if they choose a drive through as the sanction, it has to count as 25 seconds.

I'm just saying it was outdated...

a 10sec stop/go = 25sec
a drive through also = 25sec~?

just some food for thought...

Kimi punted Sutil off 4th in Monaco, absoblutely no punishment at all.
Massa released into a Force India in Valencia, only got a fine of some sort I believe?

Heikki spun Webber, DT immediately.
Lewis "gained an advantage in the chicane", a post race 25sec penalty... ummm... so driving dangerously in the pitlane and punting someone off the road deserve less penalties~?

note I didn't say the Heikki penalty was undeserved...

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

What he stated makes it inconsistent.

i.e., Heidfeld got a penalty and Kimi didn't.

edit: or maybe I misread. the tone of his post is kind of ambiguous.

I'm trying to stay out of the argument... lol

but what I stated of cos did make it inconsistents, but just that once through... lol

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

The real problem here is the insane idea that a driver ever has the right to drive another car off the track.

the only consistent thing about the FIA is their inconsistency...

as far as I could remember only Nick Heidfield got a penalty for driving someone off the track (DC at Bahrain) since I started watching F1...

Quote from Kazu2799 :

easy, Massa was 23sec behind so...

back in the (good) old days. A 10sec stop go given on the last 5 laps of the race would translate into 25sec added on the time at the finish. But somehow they reckon that a drive through without having to stop for 10seconds is also worth 25 seconds~?

everyone seems to forgot about that point even through drive through has been introduced for many years already...

Quote from Shotglass :

no idea
i only watch gp2 if the brilliant english eurosports guys are commenting
race 1 or 2 btw? ill see if i can find a german or english non itv tv rip



hamilton was already very much off before kimi was alongside him



i disagree (images from the video jb kindly provided... yes i know its badly interlaced)
1. shows hamilton already being pretty much off track before kimi has any overlap at all
2. you can tell from the transition between those 2 pics (iirs 4 frames between them) that haimlton went fully outside the white lines and thus off on his own
3. the last we see of him with with kimi going by very fast and lots of tarmac runoff still left

not sure what the regulations say but it could go either way for kimi either passing a car causing a yellow or kimi passing hamilton under yellow



the only consistent thing about the fia decisions is inconsistency



well tbh that deserves a penalty on the grounds of stupidity and incompetence



you can see a yellow flag waving on the tv footage... but its only visible when the drivers are already right next to it this making it impossible to see for them
you cant tell whether or not it was waving when they had a chance to see the flag though



i think youll change your view after looking at the screen grabs

wow we're even arguing about when Lewis and Kimi came across that recovering Williams~? lol I thought that was nothing compared to all the post race stuff handed out this weekend, in both F1 and GP2... lol

at that point of the track yup it was a tarmac run off, but slightly beyond it was grass...

and agree to the point about the only consistency in FIA is their inconsistency~!

Quote from JJ72 :

Too bad I ain't going to the singapore race, or else I will hold up a big F**K FIA SIGN with pink neon.

then they'd F ur bottom with the Max Mosley style "punishment" through... lol

I think those Singaporians still like to rip people bottoms for small offences~?

Quote from amp88 :

http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2008/799/

Official F1 website still has the result in favour of Hamilton and there's no mention of the penalty on the site (despite their being mention of Glock's). Where's the confirmation of Hamilton's penalty?

F1 is fked up, and that's the official website of a fked up sport, what could we expect from it~?

Quote from Qurpiz :

Was just on Finnish television that Hamilton received 25s penalty, so it's

1. Massa
2. Heidfeld
3. Hamilton

As much as I dislike the guy, that is just absolutely horrible call. Ferrari Internationa lAssistance, now even I believe in it.

FIA, the F should also stand for the F word too~!

according to autosport Hamilton has been given a 25sec penalty which drops him down to 3rd...

what the @#$$@#%!$#@@%!@#$ are those f!@#$ stewards doing...

Quote from evilpimp :

Yeah thats what I was thinking. If he was on Inter's at least I,d think maybe trying to get some standing water but on hard tires? O_O Most likely just getting heat in them.





Haha! I will imitate him and double pass all of you in one corner again! :P That was fun in LXO :P (or volvolandia?)



Is there a link to the onboard with Heidfeild's last laps I could have please?

and trying to break the draft in the process...

Quote from pasibrzuch :

Interesting things are going on in BMW Sauber team.
After 2nd pitstop Robert Kubica lost 2 positions from 5th to 7th for Vettel(?) and N. Heidfeld. It was 12 seconds fuel pumping for 11 laps...

After that, Nick got inters and finished 3rd. Grats for himself.

In the interview Kubica was really pissed off:

- What happened in pits?
- I don't know what happened, ask the team.

And then:
- I think it is time for team to help me too, because last 3, 4 months was helping Nicks results.

Not really good words...
not wanted by Sauber team either, I think.

Later he stated that he couldn't change tires to inters, because he would lost a bunch of time in queue in pits after Nick.
And the point was, if fueling wasn't feekad up (or well done...), he would change to inters first and... well, think yourself - Nick was 7th, finished 3rd on inters. Kubica was 5th, finished 6th on hards, so how would results look like without this freak fueling action in pits?

For some weeks there is major change in Robert's attitude about his future in Sauber team. Now I know why.
I think BMW Sauber HAD a good driver.

yeah well Kubica didn't exactly sound like he'll stay at BMW for much longer anyway...

whereas Nick seems happy to finish his career at BMW, IF they keep him...

I wonder where would I invest the time and effort for testings shall I be in that situation, not to mention Nick really needed to do more testing to try out different solutions to whatever tyre problem he is having...

Quote from evilpimp :

Oh.

he wasn't exactly blocking Kimi as Kimi was no where close, but don't know why he's doing that through...

"building heat back into the tyres" sounds like the only sensible answer I wish he'd say to the stewards if they ask...

Quote from evilpimp :

Stupid moves after he passed Kimi? Which ones?

he was weaving right-left-right down the straight after Eau Rouge...

the first post race penalty has been handed down, Glock given a 25sec penalty (which moved him out of 8th and let Webber gets back into the points) after he passed Webber for 8th in the last lap at the section of the track where Kimi's car was parked...

hopfully we won't see any more post-race penalties coming...

Kimi turning into a last year's Lewis~? lol
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70392

the difference being Lewis was 12points ahead in China and Kimi was 13points behind going into Spa...

Quote from samjh :

He had multiple "Big O" moments (I don't know if the actual word would violate the rules of the forum).

However, they were justified in this case. Murray Walker had similar moments too.

Just a bad start. Too much wheel-spin probably.

and too early on the brake for T1. The flying Trulli was on the inside of him, Bourdais ran into the back of Trulli, pushed Trulli wide, Heikki had absoblutely no where to go and has to go extremely wide and in the process about 10 cars passed him...