Quote from bbman :

What he means is when traction levels drop quite a bit after peak slip, you get the uncounterable spin effect if you go past the limit... With every degree angle you're over the limit the traction falls more, causing more angle and so on... GTR was legendary for this behaviour, GTR2 had it too as far as I know...

Problem is many modders still believe this to be true, only a handful like Niels show how it should be done, and the success of their mods speak for themselves...

That makes sense, thanks for the explanation. I guess that refers to the "driving on ice" feeling that I was describing earlier on that the early racing "sims" suffered from.

I'd also say that NR2003 and GPL suffered a bit from that problem too. Although the GPL physics have the peculiar trait that if you get the car sideways around a corner, all you have to do is hold the steering wheel dead straight and hold the throttle half open, and the car would go into a perfect controlled drift. I highly doubt that's very realistic, but it's good fun.

After doing comparisons on all three games last night, I think GTR2 is by far the worst for this problem. The car feels too stable and tight to start with, but if you manage to get it slipping a little bit, there's no recovering! Or it's unrealisticly difficult in any case.

Last edited by Ikaponthus, Mon, 5 Jan 2009 01:41.

Quote from richo :

Ford XY GTHO Falcon or an LC XU1 Torana but better still both....


Big horsepower , cross ply tires , drum brakes it doesnt get any better

While I'd love to see pretty much any historic car from the 50s or 60s, I wouldn't hold my breath for Aussie muscle cars that nobody has ever heard of outside Australia! Agree, it would be great to have them in the game though.

I 2X my own suggestion for a 67 Grand Prix car. It would be brave for them to do it though as it would be opening up such a big can of worms regarding comparisons to Grand Prix Legends I guess.

A "historic" car would be awesome. I'd love to compare a 1967 F1 car in NFS to GPL for example. And I doubt they'd even need a license for that...?

Anyway, rather than another new car, I'd much prefer to see an update to the core of the game. For example, a proper, working damage model, or to finish off the cars that are in the game already! (new interiors, etc.)

Are people serious when they are saying they use the mouse???

That's insane. Reminds me of that James Bond movie where he drives his BMW with a little trackpad device. Must be incredibly difficult. I think I'd rather attempt to use the keyboard (ugh).

My setup is an old ACT Labs Force RS wheel held together with superglue and duct tape. Not that it's a fragile thing, I've just dropped it a few times and headbutted it once. Other that that, it still works flawlessly.

I'd love to upgrade soon to shifters and a clutch-pedal setup.

Quote from Juls :

The caterham mod for rFactor is quite special. I checked how it works and it uses tyre lateral force curves which almost stay flat beyond the grip limit (after 12 degrees slip angle).

And this reproduces a lot better what happens in transient state above the grip limit: you can for a brief moment ask more from the tyres than what they are supposed to give, and this is enough to keep control.

When the transient behavior of tyres is not modeled, it seems to me the only thing to do is to use tyre curves which almost stay flat after the top instead of decreasing quickly. Like this mod does.

I suppose LFS either has flatter tyre curves than rFactor usually uses, or models tyre transient behavior.

Hmmm ... apart from the very first sentance and the word "tyre", I could barely understand the rest of this post....

Anyway, glad someone seems to have a more technical idea of what goes into making a good racing sim. For me I just judge on how "real" it feels.

Regarding the caterharm mod: that's pretty much the point of this thread, although a lot of people are missing it. I prefer LFS to rFactor, all things weighed up. But what I'm saying is rFactor is much better than most people give it credit for, especially when using a good mod. For example, compare the caterhams in both games. They're extremely similar to drive once they are setup the same.

Today I'm going to do the reverse of what I did yesterday: I'll get the "default" setup from LFS and put it into rFactor and see how close that is...

Quote from Timdpr :

LFS is realistic in terms of physics.

Rfactor is realistic in terms of cars and tracks...hard to class it as a 'simulator' imo, but that doesn't mean it is not fun.

Gimme a break. It's easily classifiable as a simulator ... well, okay, some of the mods are not so great. But if you stick to the highly rated mods, it's almost as authentic feeling as LFS, which is pretty high praise. To be honest - and I know this is going to draw some critisis - but I think with a good mod, rFactor feels more authentic than the grand daddy of them all: Grand Prix Legends. That game still suffered a bit too much from the "driving on ice" and "harder is better" problems of the first driving "sims".

For me, LFS is no.1, followed by rFactor, then NR2003, then GPL, then Richard Burns Rally, then ... (along way down) ... probably GTR2. iRacing is probably in the top 3 but I can't comment personally and never will at those prices.

Anyway, back on topic. Anyone who has both games: download the Caterham mod, make sure you have the cars setup the same in both games, and compare. I'd be interested to hear your comments.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Uhm, no. rFactor sucks.

My freind had some 30gb of rFactor crap, I think I tried like one or two mods over the years and even installed the demo on my own PC when I got it with my G25, and yet somehow I still find it crap.

Obviously different people like their games differently, but I can play on Race 07/GTR Evo without complaints. It's a different physics engine and that's fine. But rFactor (although it's based on the GTR physics engine) is quite rubbish.

You have got to be kidding me. GTR is by far the one that stands out as the most "arcade" type racing game out of the three. Well, I only have GTR2 and that's my personal opinion. rFactor is heads and shoulders above GTR2 in terms of realistic physics. Granted, LFS feels *slightly* more authentic than rFactor (and that's arguable, depending on the actual mod you're using for rFactor), but GTR isn't even in the ballpark.

That's all my opinion of course. With rFactor you have to pick and choose your mods carefully, but if you stick to the best-rated mods, it's very under-rated by the "hardcore" simming community. In any case it ****s on GTR.

Last edited by Ikaponthus, Sun, 4 Jan 2009 13:48.

I have the Caterham mod for rFactor and did a test today comparing a low-powered (~90kw) Caterham to the LX4 from rFactor (~105kw). First impression was that they were noticeably different. However, the impressive thing is that when I replicated the setups in both "simulations" (the setups are quite different by default), the cars handle in a much more similar way! (fyi, I made a new setup in LFS and used the rFactor settings)

I can't tell for sure - and nobody here can, whether they think so or not - which game is the more authentic and realistic. Personally, LFS feels and looks more realistic to me - however, point of the thread is that I was very interested and impressed to see how similarly the two cars acted in each game when setup in a similar way. They're not exactly the same, but they're very, very similar. I just wish there was a track common to both sims to do a more accurate comparison.

I haven't tried iRacing yet, and I don't plan to. The pricing is ridiculous and I can't imagine anything giving a much more authentic driving experience than LFS. In any case, I would be interested to compare the Legends cars in rFactor and iRacing though ... actually it's probably an idea for a new car in LFS (not that I think new cars is what the LFS developers should be concentrating on right now, but that's another post...)

...has anyone compared the Legends cars in rFactor vs iRacing?

As a side-note, If LFS adopts a similar pricing structure to iRacing then I'll stick to rFactor.

comments?

Last edited by Ikaponthus, Sun, 4 Jan 2009 13:29.

Originally Posted by D E V I L -Z-
One of the best twin drifts ever recorded on video - http://youtube.com/watch?v=qTs2aORTdR0





What a load of classless sh!te.

Huh. Weird.

I must have had the wrong thing copied when I pasted that. But it was one of your posts I was quoting, I just can't find which one now.

Sorry ... not sure I understand there. Did you get the threads mixed up?

Quote :

AIs attempt to overtake

They do?

Make a race with all AI drivers (spectate), and give them all different cars. The fast ones just go straight up the arse of the slow ones. Even while exiting pit lane. Haven't seen one attempted over-taking move at all.

To be honest, by the sounds of things I would have much preferred them before!

If you have a race with only 2-3 AI (so they don't get in each others way) they all go out and do a single qualifying lap within a hundredth of a second of each other and then return to the pits. Robotic much?

I understand that it's just one guy developing this and that it's just an alpha version, but then it should be alpha price too if such major flaws are not going to be actively fixed soon!

Last edited by Ikaponthus, Fri, 22 Feb 2008 15:46.

Quote from Eldanor :

Ok, I agree, but can you understand that maybe some people would like to try those physics on tracks that they like for any reason? Maybe they live near one and have been there on track days, and they think it could be great to drive them at home.

It's a matter of likeness, nobody says LFS sucks because it have no real content, just people that think having them would add another degree of fun to the sim. But it's a personal opinion, just respect that.

I can understand, but it aint gonna happen so forget about it.

Quote from tristancliffe :

About the people not being able to drive - it's a valid argument. Someone who can drive won't want to load a sim to drive slowly in traffic. Someone who can drive a road car might still want a racing experience that they can't afford in real life.

If you can afford a car you can go cruising. But you wouldn't want to because they're all wankers.
If you can afford a car you still probably can't afford a racing car and all the 'other' costs of racing, so you do it on a sim.

But yeah, we're just taking the mickey really. Don't take it personally or you'll end up like the FM crew when ovals are ridiculed.

Just checking the website for fun after being out of the country for a while. Maybe it was done ages ago (probably), but I just noticed all the corners and straights have been renamed to commercialised crap.

Jim Beam Straight my arse. Conrod Straight. Supercheap Auto Pitlane? Are you ****ing kidding me!?

http://www.v8supercar.com.au/content/bathurst1000/track_map/

God I hate it how commercialized Australia is getting. We're getting just like America (and there's nothing wrong with Americans, but we're just not them!).

Same in the Rugby League. "Holden Half-time". WTF.

And now by beloved Rugby Union is going down the same track too. So much for over a century of tradition.

Sigh.

Rant over. Not that I expect anyone cares except me.

Quote from boosterfire :

I really don't like the "rankings" this thread seems to build around what people are doing with LFS. The fact is; insim is versatile. This versatility allows people to create differente style of driving, cruising included.

I'd say my cruising/racing ratio is about 80%/20%. Does that make me a "loser"? Does that make me a bad driver? A guy who just likes to go slow and likes having the rewards coming the easy way? Not really. That just means that I prefer the style of play I get from a cruising server, not that I dislike pure racing, I also do that on CTRA servers, just not as much as cruising, because I get rather quickly bored of pure racing.

The reason why there are so many cruise servers and why they're so busy is that people like the extra fun they can get from a cruise server; different goals/quests, etc. It's like a game in a game. I personally enjoy a spot of pure racing from time to time, but else I feel that cruising (at a fast speed, mind you - this non-sense about people following limit speeds on cruising servers is untrue) brings more fun into my life than else.

Now, that'll probably make people just tell me "zomg, just go find another game", but I won't, because I like LFS, because despite it's numerous lacks I still get fun from it, whether it be in a form that the elitists "lfsispureracingsimulatoralltheothersfailllllzommmggg!11" don't like or not.



That's the kind of comment I'm talking about. Now. This is a game. The goal of a GAME is to have FUN. In what exactly is cruising more silly than racing? Technically, both won't give you anything else than fun. Yes, congratulations, you've won a race! So? Is that really any better than escaping the cops on a cruising server? It's in no way different. D'you think it takes more "skillz"? No, it doesn't. Both can be easy, both can be hard. Both are rewarding up to a certain point; that point being where the fun becomes something useful, and that's no where present in any game which only goal is to bring FUN.

And "For kids who can't drive a real car yet"... You know, I could do the same comparision with people racing on LFS saying that you're just people who can't drive around a track in real life so they do it on a computer game. It's exactly the same thing; it's both things you could do in real life, but you do them in a game because it's much more convenient/cheap/whatever. I don't really care whether you like cruising or not, it's just the pejorative non-sense that I dislike, here.

In what pure racing is less of a waste of time than cruising? Your point just doesn't make sense! Technically, any minute you spend on this game is a waste of time, whatever you do. Whether it'd be cruising, racing, drifting, or what not. But you know what? It's not wasted, because it's fun, that's the point.

So, to get back to the title of this topic, NO, LFS is no longer a pure racing simulation, it's a driving simulation, which includes different styles of driving, with the customizing help of insim. Does that really matter? No; in fact, it's a good thing, versatility brings attracts a bigger player base. All this versatility is great, of course, but it doesn't change the fact that people, when they're reading the tests of games, look up the screenshots and see what it looks like before they really read what it's about. Most of us here agree that LFS is highly enjoyable with its current graphics, but that part of a game is probably the most important to 95% of the player base.

Chill mate. I was just taking the piss.

Quote from atlantian :

my friend who is a die-hard sony and polyphony fan says that LFS is "tail-happy like GTA" when i got a chance to make him demo it... he thinks that GT5 is still the ultimate simulator... he can't turn away now anyways, he spent a great deal of money on GT games and the PS3

Arcade racers love to think their games are realistic because it's easy to be good at them. They don't want to think they couldn't do it in real life.

Quote from ACCAkut :

As far as I understand that exactly the problem with low lock diffs and open diffs. Because the weight lays on the outside tire its easier for the inner tire the spin, therefor it gets more torque through the diff and slips, causing it to heat up more.

I don't know at which locking this would still happen in RL, because the LFS grip physics are somehow not quite correct (why is spinning your wheels at start still faster), but it would.

See here how a open diff can not handle too much power (in Stigs lap)

That was cool.

BTW who said RH can't drift? Just lock the diff.

Quote from kamkorPL :

Besides, my post wasn't that unoriginal anyway! I've subsequently done a search, and while there was four or five previous posts on the A.I. ramming, they were all slightly different and quite old. The sticky post didn't mention it at all and I couldn't find anything on the second issue about them driving like robots doing exactly the same lap-times. Maybe I didn't search hard enough, but I suggest that if I have to search for half an hour to find something similar then there's no real serious problem about repeating something that's be done to death anyway!

Good post and I agree 100%

I don't care if people want to drift or cruise in LFS one little bit.

Quote from Matrixi :

"Bling Bling Drifto Ricer Cars" <- How wonderfully nice and unbiased of the OP. The world sure is a better place with such great human beings like you around, I wish you would reproduce in great quantities to have other generations sharing this great open minded viewset that you do on other people and their hobbies around you.

And as what goes for the thread:

Hey thankyou! I tired my best!

Repeat

Quote from Ikaponthus :

Besides, my post wasn't that unoriginal anyway! I've subsequently done a search, and while there was four or five previous posts on the A.I. ramming, they were all slightly different and quite old. The sticky post didn't mention it at all and I couldn't find anything on the second issue about them driving like robots doing exactly the same lap-times. Maybe I didn't search hard enough, but I suggest that if I have to search for half an hour to find something similar then there's no real serious problem about repeating something that's be done to death anyway!

Quote from kamkorPL :

One thing is for sure. I bet my G25 that Ikaponthus wouldn't dare to say things he says about drifting in real life for example to :

Paul Vlasblom

or any of those:

Team Falken Europe Drivers

I also bet 2 G25 that he would change his point of view if he received a proper drift co-drive on high speed track with very good driver and in a very good car. Not to mention his point of view changing completly if he got a chance to try drifting and noticed he is just spinning and can't control it for some reason.

Sure I would. I'd say exactly what I say here. In case you have missed it (I've said it multiple times), I'm sure they're all nice guys, but drifting in unsophisticated and lacks class. You know what? They'd probably laugh and agree. I don't like it, but if they want to do it then as far as I'm concerned, they're more than welcome.

Quote :

Anyway, One thing makes me wonder. I said in your thread about 'what's the fascination with drifting" that you must be a flamer, since your reg date is feb 2008 + you are a demo racer. But then you turned S2 licensed. A week has pasted and you have still driven 0km/mph

I have no broadband connection here. Wait a month or two.

Last edited by Ikaponthus, Fri, 22 Feb 2008 08:41.

Thanks Toni, appreciate the words of support.

But anyway, I'm a lover, not a fighter.

I'm also a 105kg semi-professional rugby player. I'm not too worried about threats on Internet forums from anonymous kiddies that take themselves a little too seriously.

Cheers anyway.

In MY esteemed opinion...

Cruising is absolutely silly. What an absolute waste of time! For kids who can't drive a real car yet. But that's no sin, if you like it then why not? I don't care.

Drifting totally lacks class and makes a mockery of real racing car drivers by pretending to be a legitimate motor-sport. Takes more skill than a burn-out or donut, but not much more classy. But once again, if you like it, I don't care, do it.

Racing is imbued with a century of tradition and passion. It's the backbone of auto technological breakthroughs and to compete at the elite level, it takes skill and sophistication exponentially greater than what drifting or cruising does.

Let the flames begin. You wanted a show right?

Get your popcorn and deckchair.

I agree. Cruising is definitely not a motorsport.