Quote from JTbo :

Luckily there is option to use on server, set force cockpit mode on and there won't be problem, others can leave it off and enjoy what view they prefer, not a big problem.

Yes but I also want an server option for forced wheel/clutch/shifter users now too for the similar reasons

Ok lets do some research

Quote :

Clutch problems can occur at almost any mileage and for a wide variety of reasons. When the clutch pedal is released and the clutch disc starts to rub against the flywheel and pressure plate, it generates friction and heat. This helps absorb the shock loading that would otherwise jolt the drivetrain every time the transmission was put into gear or shifted. A little slippage under these conditions is a good thing because it helps dampen loads that might otherwise damage gears, U-joints and CV joints.

Quote :

The worst thing any driver can do is ride the clutch. Slipping the clutch excessively when starting out or when creeping along in traffic sends the temperature of the clutch soaring. If the facings get too hot, they may start to burn giving off an odor similar to burnt toast. If the clutch isn't given a chance to cool, the disc may be ruined along with the flywheel and/or pressure plate.

Source: http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/bf40459.htm

Quote :

Excessive heat can cause the diaphragm to loose its gripping power - possibly due to a driver "riding the clutch" to excess

Source: http://www.indiacar.com/infobank/clutch.htm

Imo it's very realistic for the road going cars (i.e. mimimal race preped) to experience clutch slip and the effects of heat induced slip with overly aggressive driving or deliberate riding of the clutch. The fully race preped cars on the other hand should have much sturdier cluthces install and therefore exhibit a lot less tendency to overheat the clutch, but also should be alot harsher and less forgiving to drive.

Last edited by Glenn67, Wed 26 Dec 2007, 14:15.

You probably should have posted this in one of the many threads on this subject already started in the last week

As I've said in another thread, I don't think you will find that the clutch as it is currently is supposed to represent a real clutch in every circumstance. It just needs to approximate a working clutch in race conditions.

For me at least I think it is pretty good in race conditions as I virtually have zero problems with it on a momo or G25 wheel If you are then I suggest it is because of bad habits formed in the game prior to patch Y. Just as it is easy to overdrive cars in LFS (in respect to grip limit) without realising it because of lack of G forces it is also very easy to use more revs and mismatch the clutch to revs due to lack of feedback you would get in real life.

And in rl you dont have a nice little gauge to tell you how hot your clutch is, your only feedback is a not very pleseant smell if you have cooked it which is probably equivelant to well into the red in LFS.

I do agree that the clutch looses some of its effectiveness a bit too quick though, at least in the low powered road cars, but its acceptable in its current form as I'm sure it will be refined as LFS progresses

Last edited by Glenn67, Wed 26 Dec 2007, 09:23.

Those that feel there should be aids like blip on downshift for mouse and keyboard users, I beg to differ

I've used an xbox controller in the past then a momo wheel and just now have got a G25

Which do I consider the easiest to use? They xbox controller by far as no setup time just jump online and play.

If you have a wheel and use sequential gear changes then I'd say you have an advantage over others in that it's easy to be consistently fast.

If you are using a clutch and H gated shifter then there is no advantage as you have to do heel toe to get equivelant lap times that opens you up to making alot more mistakes in the course of a race and imo requires alot more skill than without manual clutching or for that matter any other method of controlling cars in LFS. So much so I'd actually like to see servers for clutch and shifter users only

Would I go back to the momo or xbox controller? No way! Why because it is just so much more fun using a clutch and shifter, even though I serriously doubt I'll ever be able to match my pace compared to sequential shifting

Wow nice

Great to see how different the inertia improvements have affected the torque curves. I certainly could feel a huge difference, but now I can see them too

I was only thinking of this yesterday lol

One for the Bathurst fans

Not sure how I've missed this lot before but here's over an hours worth of footage from the Bathurst 1000 in 1991 (Pre V8 Supercars) There's fourteen parts too it. Enjoy

http://uk.youtube.com/profile_ ... hurst1000Video&page=2

Quote from Michel 4AGE :

Ahh the aw11. R.I.P.

Oops! That looks like an expensive track day Maybe he was too busy looking at the speedo and missed the apex

i'm already in, but now I'm in all the way with a G25 too

I'm 2 sec slower at the moment but loving it

For several years I used too use custom wheels view all the time, then about 3-4 months ago I started to use cockpit view some of the time. Since PatchX30 i am using cockpit 100% of the time and loving it

The reason I used custom view originally was I felt it made up for some of the factors lacking in a sim, but now LFS is feeling so much better I feel much more comfortable going to cockpit view.

Quote from Riders Motion :

I was a bit ashamed to say it, but yeh I don't understand anything to his helpfull tools...

meh, that's why suspension tunning is often seen as a black art. Which doesn't mean it is hard, it's just that there is a hell of a lot of information out there to assimilate. And often a little information is just as dangerous as no information but hey it's fun, like a game within a game

Quote from Bob Smith :

RM, I made a whole program to do all the maths for you. Keep up.

Yes Bob I thank you for giving us the tools, so that we can feel like we are LFS race engineers but one thing you can't give us is the wisdom to use those tools

Quote from Speed Soro :

Scawen should review his numbers, cause the clutch waste is not real at this moment.

I think alot are missing the point

LFS is a race simultator so naturally Scawen will concentrate on getting things to work close to realistic in race conditions, this sometimes means a temporay compromise in realism in normal driving conditions.

That has happened with tyre physics and now with clutch heat. Doesn't mean it will remain that way, it will no doubt be refined as we go along. But the priority is to get it implemented and behaving acceptably in race conditions first. This in my view has been achieved.

If you can't drive one of the cars in LFS at the moment in race conditions without significant heat build up in the clutch then your doing something terribly wrong

I love the patch !

No I don't believe the physics are perfect (this is a work in progress ) but patch Y is definately heading in the right direction.

The clutch model has some flaws just as the tyre model does, the important thing isn't that there is some flaws, the most important point is that the clutch behaviour for racing is pretty good and adds an entire new dimension to racing in LFS


What will people say when brake heat is introduced and then dynamic grip levels on the track

Last edited by Glenn67, Sat 22 Dec 2007, 02:11.

Quote from Crash Dummy :

Australian V8 Super cars also run a locked differential. That's Australia's biggest racing series!

They actually use a spooler locking diff, which gives full locking under acceleration and open diff under coast. So quite different from a complete locked diff.

Comments I've read on them specifically are "the diff being open when no throttle is applied allows safe turn in", "having full locking under power makes them difficult cars to turn in on high speed corners..." and "the spooler locking diffs mean that the drivers have to be very gentle on the throttle on exits from medium to slow corners due to understeer/snap oversteer"

Last edited by Glenn67, Fri 21 Dec 2007, 07:26.

Quote from WGooden :

Remember when everyone who raced blackwood GTI in S1 was like a big family and everyone knew each other, lol.
AUSSIE, he was a character.

When you can remember when WGooden thought that someone driving 1 sec off wr pace was fast but then within a few weeks was faster than that

AUSSIE - "Your on LFS and your not on TS! Get on TS now you git!"

It would force the development of non locked diff setups, that can only be a good thing

+1 but also need max preload brought down as well otherwise pointless

I know this is not that long ago but fond memory non the less

remember when a report of Scawens kitchen reno's recieved about the same attention as a new patch release and then all the photoshoped pics of Scawen and also his cat.

The amount of racers on demo outnumbered wreckers by 20 to 1
Everybody knew each other

Quote from JTbo :

It is BL2 with XFG where this all is coming from, in old patch x30 it was not possible to AI cars finish 20 lap race and fairly impossible for human racer to make that at racing speed, bit like snail race.

Change has to be based to some physics, so latest change did cause XFG in BL2 to work pretty well but as that change did affect to some other cars too, it made those such that one can easily flatshift on race.

So now it might be bit of choice between two situations or then Scawen would need to work even more with issue that I believe has taken quite lot of precious time already.

I did a few test races last night with myself and AI around BL1 amd BL2 in XFG, XRG and LX6.

The XFG seems no problem now around BL2 the AI can finish a 15 lap race with minimal clutch heat and I finished the same race with the same heat as them but half a lap ahead so faster pace. Using momo with autoclutch, using default rallycross set. This was comparable to the XRG clutch heat over the same race.

On BL1 the XFG race with minimal clutch heat similar to the lx6 at patch x33 so seems about right. The LX6 on the other hand seems too easy now. I did a 15 lap race around BL1 and after 15 laps with proper blipping you couldn't even detect any clutch heat.

I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing as irl would the LX6 have a better clutch for the car type etc than the XFG. And from what I understand if you flatshift in the LX6 it would still produce some heat which would effect slip on gear changes and impact lap times slightly?

Overall I think it's pretty good in X36 but it could possible be slightly less strong? Something like 75% between X33 and X36.

I voted yes

















That way I can diselect the drift car in filters and only see race servers
It would make everyone happy

Quote from BigTime :

Clutch restored to X33, and here I thought we where making progress. I thought the reducing of 25% would be perfect. With the clutch as is your going to have to pick moments during a race (endurance style) to slow down and the let the clutch cool and slowing down never has been in my vocabulary.

Have you even tried the xfg, lx6 or any other car that has recieved stronger clutches in x36

They seem near on indistructable to me now so should be no problem for endurance racing you would have to really mess up more than once to get in trouble

Last edited by Glenn67, Wed 19 Dec 2007, 14:27.

Quote from Scawen :

I think you will find the new X36 an improved version. Clutch heating is back to X33 levels but six of the cars have a stronger clutch. The stronger clutch was worked out purely by engine inertia. So clutch strength is now the larger value of that required for engine torque, and that required to deal with the engine rotational inertia.

That sounds like a good solution to me also, as on thinking some more about the issue, FWD cars which were the most problematic have naturally alot less flex in the drive train than there RWD cousins so introducing more flex wouldn't have been realistic for that particular problem

Irl a car like the gti would most likely have had a heavy duty clutch installed if it was used in rallycross or serious racing. Trackday cars would probably have a clutch somewhere inbetween. The difference in leg strain would have been noticable between them too can't simulate that in LFS yet From what I've read from performance engineering sites about FWD cars standard to medium clutches dont take alot of abuse irl, so I think it would be pretty realistic now.

Quote from evilgeek :

got to disagree mate.

The flex disk has metal sleves which the blots pass through they are done up tight (to a torque setting) metal to metal no flex involved there yes there would be load on the bolt near the plates but bolts of that size can take many tonnes of force. If there was any movement between the bolt and metal end plate they would certainly fail very quickly.

Quote from nihil :

A mini? So that was fwd? Or was it converted to rwd? Just asking since I'm still interested to know about fwd and locked diffs (in the real world... )

It was still a FWD and motor package as original but the motor had been tunned alot

Quote from Bob Smith :

I'm sure Dennis mentioned somethime about axle twist due to inboard brakes on the dp1. Sadly I cannot find in emails/his site where this was mentioned, and I remember the exact figure. I remember it being higher than I thought, over 20 degrees I think (under full braking, that's 1.6gs or so).

They way I understand a flex disk is constructed I'd expect it to be able to flex upto about 30 degrees mechanicaly given enough forces at play. In reality there is probably a large safty margine before the metal components clash so a resonable guess would be what Bob said Also engine mounts can allow several degrees of movement, so it all adds upto quite abit.

Quote from evilgeek :

from what i understand any movement of a guibo (flex disc) is usually a result of the bolts twisting in their holes.

If that's how they work they wouldn't last 5 minutes

I'm pretty sure you will find that they all have six bolts, three attatch to a plate connected to the driveshaft, the other alternating three attatch to another plate that connects to the diff in most cases, this is all encased in rubber. The bolts are spaced 60 degrees apart. Looking at the pic JTBO post above you can see this fairly clearly. You can see by the shape of the connecting plate it would give 10 to 20 degrees of rotation easily.

So the effective (simulated sping) would need to take into account the mass of rubber acting between the two surfaces. (i.e. mass of rubber between two bolts times six) I guess just like tyres there would be varying characteristics between manufacturers etc and would assume road cars would have softer ones compared to race preped cars? So that might help the situation with the XFG.

Last edited by Glenn67, Tue 18 Dec 2007, 23:46.