Quote from AndroidXP :

You take a quasi-exploit locked diff setup that relies on the inner front wheel to lift to work, change it to an open diff and wonder how it doesn't behave like "a real car" (which you don't even know as I can guarantee you no real car uses a setup like that).

with bob smith's "road going" setups the effect is even worse. don't distract from the main issue - it's the same with the UF1 standard setups. believe me, the XFG setup I made to try to prove myself that LFS isn't that far off was tweaked in order to prevent wheel lifting.
I just tried blackwood, and in the first 3rd gear righthander i can "lift" the wheel when driving on the ideal racing-line with 80 kph... just floor the throttle and there you go.
as i'm not that incredibly fast in LFS I usually take this corner with maybe 110 kph... therefore I strongly believe in RL I sometimes take corners like those with about 90 kph flooring the throttle midcorner... no spin.

then I took a ride in south city, rolled slowly to a 90° lefthander, took the tightest radius possible (kind of like in real life traffic). so I turned with 30 kph, then floored midcorner. biiiiiig wheelspin and rev-limiter hitting. I then thought, ok, you wouldn't do that in 1st gear, although this setup's 1st gear goes to probably 70 kph. so I did it again in 2nd - just like turn into a crossing street. no rev-limiter hitting but still some raise in revs and wheelspin. you DEFINITELY don't get this in RL with an average car.


I mean, those of you who say it's absolutely (or at least highly) realistic - did you really compare or do you just believe in the high accuracy of LFS and search for all possible reasons why the subjective experience might differ? after all it's just another bandit-thread and he's always wrong until proven right.


for the record: just drove the FXO standard-setup with patch x30, which uses an LSD. now THIS feels much more like an open diff FWD in my universe.

... and now it's late and I spend far too much time with LFS.

Quote from tristancliffe :

It is a LACK of centripetal force that causes load transfer, you to slide to the outside, and your milk to fall over whilst cornering.

Centrifugal isn't the cause.

if you want to be a smart-ass, then tell me why the LACK of centripetal force doesn't lift my wheels when bolting down a straight...

the lack of a force moves something... that's interesting, really.


the thing is, in RL the open diff is kind of self-regulating:
- weight moves towards outer rear tyre because of "cornering forces" (to avoid highly technical expressions) and acceleration
-> loss of traction or even lift of inner front tyre
-> open diff sends power to inner front tyre
-> power distribution leads to understeer
- less propulsion in general due to suboptimal power distribution (and traction)
-> less acceleration
-> weight shifts back a bit to front and inside (because of increasing corner-radius)
-> increase of traction on inner front tyre (and outer)
-> more acceleration and decrease of corner-radius
- start over

so that's basically what happens with a FWD in a corner and what I experience in RL. just in RL this is really smooth and kind of subtle (only the amount of understeer can vary a lot from one car to another).
and yes, in LFS it's basically the same, just way more extreme and it feels like the weight never gets back from the outer rear tyre and the inner front tyre is floating unless you release the throttle quite a bit. applying full throttle in a bend is more or less impossible.

if I take the XFG with one of my race setups and alter the diff from blocked to open, it handles like what I would expect of a car that has a combination of

- a suicidal high center of gravity
- tyres that have such a high level of grip that you could flip your car by just cornering it
- a whole lot of power and little engine weight
- a tiny wheelbase
- a bloody bad suspension with a lot of body roll and too hard a front

and again: if I drive an LFS-FWD the way I drive an FWD in RL, I have to fight with extreme power loss and wheelspin whereas in RL there's no spin at all.

i mean, watch the vids. if you say they're moving slower than me in LFS doing an easy lap on a cruise-server, then somebody call a doctor... when he's here we can decide whether I or you need his help... ;-))

Last edited by Bandit77, Fri, 14 Dec 2007 23:23.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I think you mean LACK of centripetal force

no, actually I meant centrifugal force.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Also, you drive a lot harder in LFS than you do in real life.

of course I considered that. but even if I go quickish rather than fast on the limit in LFS the inner wheel spins like mad.

I mentioned the 1st-gear-full-throttle-circle... did that with a cinquecento-cookie-box because we had to find a noise. no spin. go do this with the UF1.

and have you seen the vids? don't think they move slow. if you go like this in LFS with an open diff you have constant spin.

I certainly do not compare LFS-driving to my everyday driving. but I also mentioned the uphill serpentines: that's probably THE situation for an inner front-wheel to lose traction... and it does but it's minimal in real life.
guys, I've chased uphill thru bends with squeeling tyres and throttle to the metal... no spin like that.

come to my universe...

Actually, in my mediocre understanding of physics, the inner frontwheel of an FWD is most likely to lift off / spin if you accelerate hard out of a bend. the acceleration moves the weight to the rear, while centripetal-force moves the weight to the outside. result: no weight on front inner wheel.
so far so good. but in my universe this doesn't happen that extremely. most of all not in almost every turn you do or if you just turn in a continuous circle in 1st gear.
and IF it ever happened it would surely not last like a second and the revs wouldn't hit the limiter.

but as I said. maybe that's just in my universe. but luckily i'm not alone there .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZIHpa5zyPs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXtmILKF1mg

ok, I finally have to see that I live in a parallel universe or something.

Just a question: Is the open-diff behavior thought to be realistic or was its development neglected because nobody uses it anyway (exept for UF1-drivers)?
Correct me if I'm wrong - but most production FWDs do have open diffs, right? So which ones of these do rev up like mad in a tight (or even not so tight) turn sending all the enginepower to the inner wheel leaving you almost without any propulsion (is that the word?) and a lot (just way too much) understeer. LFS does exactly this, which I NEVER experienced in RL... and I'm definitely no stranger to chasing FWDs (including a '96 Cinquecento with a very short wheelbase) thru upwards serpentines - fighting against powerundersteer of course, but it's never that hilarious.

Anyone RL experience with a behavior like that?

Quote from Linsen :

Unless, of course, the FBM feels perfectly fine for you, which I seriously doubt. But if it does, you might just as well pretend the road cars to use the same sequential gear box as the FBM, as you could pretend the road cars to use some kind of tiptronic (which they don't).

it does feel fine. apart from the fact that I won't be driving it that much anyway, from a standard wheel point of view the FBM shift-model is a practicable adaption.
you noticed that the h-shift-model is not the same, didn't you?

Quote from ajp71 :

Given that logic we should ban all keyboards, mice, joysticks and combined axis wheels. The road cars in LFS have a 3 pedal H-gate layout, LFS makes certain compensations to help make it drivable without too much hardware. You simply bark at it when you fancy changing gear and LFS will do the clutch and shift for you, likewise in a sequential the computer will feel for the right point to shift for you. Having a throttle and brake are prerequisites to being able to drive any car so there's an expectation that you have to provide those inputs and there is no reason why you should have an aid for them.

ok, I get your point. YOU prefer a half decent modelling which is neither fish nor flesh but really somewhere in between over a "complete software gear-change" which embodies perfectly a RL tiptronic.

now if that's not personal taste...

Quote :

If you really can't cope with manually blipping then you can give up any aspirations to drive anything but some modern GT cars, most cars with a sequential gearbox do not have an automatic blip because before it's a viable option you need to have a responsive digital throttle.

boy, before you make wild assumptions like that you should read my posts (i know it's a pain in the ass) or just stay quiet.
even if you started RL racing at a very tender age I most probably downshifted and blipped a couple of times more than you.
but probably for you the LFS-system doesn't feel akward because the RL way of doing it doesn't come that natural for you (wild assumption from my side).

I'm getting more and more to the conclusion that it's ONLY a matter of taste and there are no real objective reasons just as you can't objectively say if hotdogs or hamburgers taste better.

Quote from ATHome :

Question: Why you don't use the sequential gearstick every Momo, DFP and G25 has ?

even if I had one of these, THAT doesn't make the difference. having two pedals and an UP-DOWN-lever is still a tiptronic-layout. you don't seem to get my point.

Quote from sinbad :

When you pull a paddle, you're instructing your LFS guy to operate the gear stick and clutch pedal, because you can't do that yourself, that is all. You've got a throttle pedal so LFS doesn't do anything with that since you can do it yourself.

valid point. I see it the same way. and these are exactly the cases where realism (or better a certain kind of realism) and immersion can go apart. of course I see that immersion has got a huge subjective aspect. for ME, braking and downshifting while blipping in real life is almost as easy as braking and pulling the left paddle in LFS (while my LFS guy declutches and blips). but the way LFS is now, is mentally a lot different and would take me ages to learn.

Now - I know - you might say: yeah, but that's your fault, you have to learn.

LFS claims to be a simulation. So actually if you're able to do something in RL with your car you should be able to do it in LFS without days of practising. (oh damn, where does this lead me? )
So basically the adaption of h-shifting to a tiptronic-layout will always end up being a dexterity excersise that has nothing to do with driving skills and harms the immersion.

Is buying an H-shifter the solution? probably, but in the end the semi-automatic is thought for standard wheel users, so why cripple it like that? the correct consequence would then be to remove it - and the auto-box too... guess I mentioned that before.

so if you don't get my point (and chances are, because it's damn hard for me to actually make it... ) and do not understand all of my blablabla.
For me, the new system just doesn't FEEL right resp. less like driving a car in RL than it used to, which consequently decreases immersion. Probably very subjective, but that's just how it is. I don't like it at all.


topic clutchtemp indicator

I think the indicator, as it is at the moment, is not thought as an indicator you would have IRL (which you actually do NOT have) but more to compensate the feeling of a heated clutch, which you actually do not have in LFS.

So having the exact temperature is as unrealistic as having displayed 12 tyre temperatures in a hatchback while in race... BUT I don't care about these things left in, because if I don't want to I don't have to use / look at them.

Quote from ATHome :

Somehow I don't get whats all that fuzz about the lifting is

I lift my right foot ever since LFS got the options to manually cut and blip, which was there since 0.1

I even edit the config file of games like rFactor or GTR2 to have to lift and blip on shifts

the point is, (apart from FBM) having to lift the foot while using paddles to shift is a step closer to what you have to do in regular h-shifted cars in RL but - as a whole - represents a system that is not existent in real life. therefore the new semi-automatic or seq-shifting is - at least for some drivers - a step back in terms of realism and immersion compared to the "old" tiptronic-style semi-auto, which was at least something that does exist in RL.

if the new semi-automatic is supposed to decrease the advantage of paddle-shifting over h-shifting, then I think there would be less ugly ways.
for example a RL tiptronic (not ferrari gearboxes for 20'000 $) still shifts slower than a good driver. why not slow the semi-automatic down a bit for H-shifted cars? but please don't model a smart-gearbox :-).

Quote from axus :

If you spent more time on track, getting used to it instead

bah, that's probably the most ignorant answer of all.

Quote from ajp71 :

I've made no adoption to my driving style in the road cars and haven't found clutch heat an issue yet either

well, flatshifting DOES overheat the clutch after some laps in the XFG for example, which is ok, because I kind of disliked the idea to be forced to flatshift to be fast. remember - no blip and no cut used to be the fastest method... but it hurt my soul.

Quote from wien :

Those are one and the same when racing. You HAVE to think about what is going on technically so you don't abuse the mechanics of your car. That's the aspect the patch added, and that's why I (and apparently a lot of other folks) love it.

Actually the way my gears were changed before the patch was less abusive to the mechanics than the way I change them now - although the damage model isn't sophisticated enough to simulate this.

In the end I'm not here to convince everyone that the new sequential-mode for h-shifted cars is big BS. For me - as an avid real life driver & biker - it nevertheless is. It doesn't feel right in the context of the game. Period. No let's :drink:.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Why not just use the auto-clutch if you don't have a clutch pedal? Then all you have to do is lift off the throttle when changing up, and blip it when changing down. Why are you using a button for a clutch?

Quote from ajp71 :

I don't get why you're insisting on using button clutch whilst still demanding other aids to come back. Have you actually tried just racing like you used to

I don't at all.
I started with autoclutch as I used to drive like that. YES it works but it doesn't feel right (do I have to repeat it another ten times?). Then I tried manual clutch (button), and I really like the fact that you can stall the engine now and there's no autoclutch below 3k rpm (I hated that - should've been lower / adjustable). But shifting with a manual button-clutch is more like a dexterity (what a great word) exercise than a realistic driving experience so I'm most probably coming back to autoclutch.

You both tell me that you can blip the throttle when shifting down with autoclutch - but I tried and it didn't work, seriously.


And by the way I think I forgot to mention that I love the other features that were ADDED (please note that the field of view is reduced... ).

Quote from Cue-Ball :

1) Squeeze paddle or push shifter
2) Press gas pedal
3) Release paddle/shifter

no way, josé.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

It seems some people can't co-ordinate their hands and feet very well. Suffice to say you would not have an easier time of it if you had a clutch pedal - it would just be one extra foot to get wrong, and you'd have to operate two pedals with your right foot instead of just one.

Some seem to think that would be easier...

what do you want to say with this? even if it was "the same" to operate two paddles and a button clutch as handle a gearlever and a pedal-clutch (and there are hints that it's definitely not) it'd still be a joke cause you don't do it in reality - whereas in reality you do have systems that work like the old LFS sequential mode. so it's a realistic system that can be found in SOME cars. there is NO real world car where you have to push a button-clutch, release throttle, pull a lever, release the lever, release the clutch, step on throttle.
THAT's my point.
And for those who like it the way it is now: does it make your experience more real in terms of DRIVING not of thinking what's technically going on behind it?

just to clarify: I am not talking about the FBM. Maybe some of you haven't driven the "old" cars with the new system.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

It's a tiptronic because you don't have the "H" shifter!, do you want to be forced to buy a G25 in order to play LFS? Than shut it... You want to be able not to lift the throttle while people with G25 and 3 pedals are forced to... You want to be quicker then them, while they are doing MUCH more work then you?! Just lif the damn throttle kids, stop whining or go play other games, jesus christ..

boy, I normally don't boast about this, but as you accuse us of being uncapable and wanting an advantage over "real" shifters: I have been driving for years with throttle-blipping, heal-toeing and double-declutching in real life - and it's even fun.
But, yeah, probably LFS is more realistic than the real cars I drove, that's why I can't handle it in this 'sim'.
Not to mention that it felt more realistic as it was. Now it's an unrealistic (i'm not talking about FBM here), akward combination of wannabe-realism and something that once worked pretty fine.

Quote from Linsen :

I have to conceed however, that throttle cut and blip is harder to time right with flappy-paddles, I remember that from when I didn't have a DFP. But the amount of practice needed to get it right is certainly not unreasonable.

that's a good point. not that I agree at all, but it's good you mentioned it: I would NEVER practice this procedure. Simply because it's (be it because of hard- or software) too far away from reality. As I mentioned above: I can beautifully get along with these techniques in RL - but in LFS it's a whole different story. With a G25 it might at least be funny in a non-competitive situation but with a standard wheel it's nothing more than (sorry for repeating it again) an additional hassle - it just doesn't feel anything closer to the real thing than having the software do it.

And you're all right: liftig the foot in a (what I now call semi-)tiptronic-system isn't a hard thing to do - it just doesn't fit into the/my picture. And finally I really miss the automatic throttle-blip, but I won't do it manually for the reasons stated above - it's akward and would destroy more of the immersion than having no blip at all.

Last but not least, consequently, if the "sequential" gearbox option is destroyed like that, it should be removed together with the automatic gear box. Wouldn't make me happy, but the current sequential gearbox doesn't either.

Quote from Linsen :

Geez, people get over it, just because you're used to use LFS in an unrealistic manner, doesn't mean that you shouldn't have to adjust now that it becomes more realistic.

to put it in your words: I can't help getting really annoyed by people claming a new feature realistic just because it's harder to handle.

do you really want to say that pulling a flappy-paddle just a tad after you release throttle and have some funny autoclutch in between to shift up is more realistic than having a system that works exactly like a tiptronic (which basically does electronically what a good driver would do manually)?

well then, i'm out of here.

Quote from BlueFlame :

It just feels pointless lifting your right foot when you aren't pressing in a clutch pedal at the same time. You just look like an idiot trying to clutch it.

second that. IRL you'd only do this when shifting without clutch (at least it works on bikes).

Quote from [RF]-art555 :

Lifting your foot from the gas pedal is perfectly imaginable wheather you have clutch pedal or not

yeah, for braking and decelerating.

Quote from Warper :

Don't understand your prob. Some racecars have ignition-cut on upshift some do not have. Same in LFS. The FBM doesn't has ignition-cut in reallife. So you just have to lift the throttle to unload the transmission for an upshift. This definately has nothing todo with clutching?

I totally see the "unload the transmission"-aspect. but having a clutch you'd cut the throttle anyway not to hit the limiter or whatever. having NO clutch at all like in a tiptronic-car, it FEELS totally unnatural.

Quote from BlueFlame :

This is a game, and at the end of the day, my if my steering is done electricly and lightningly fast, why cannot my gearchanges be?

some people might say "because it's supposed to be realistic - it only changes gear as fast as you're able to..."
but I support your point of LFS being a game: IMHO it has to FEEL realistic, because it can never BE realistic. the strange gearchange-behavior we have now when using paddles for h-shifted cars feels totally incomparable to any gear box in any serious car.

the old tiptronic-like behavior was perfect for a PC-based simulation: the software did what you couldn't decently do with your clutch- and shiftlever-less steering-wheel... and for a powerful start you had the button-clutch.

I mean, we could also take out the steering-compensation so G25 will remain the only choice. Logitech will be thankful.


I understand that at the moment the clutch-heat-feature would be quite pointless when "tiptronic" is activated... but then again I wonder if clutch-overheating is really such an issue in RL compared to brake-overheating for example.

Quote from danowat :

So you never lift your foot off the throttle to change gear IRL?

aah, c'mon. YES I do lift my foot, just as I turn my head to look left rather than push a button on my wheel.
But I NEVER pull flappy-paddles AND lift my foot off the throttle in real life.

Quote :

As for tiptronic cars, thats as maybe, but are any of the cars in LFS tiptronic?, no.

of course they're not tiptronic (at least not anymore). now they're LFS-hassle-o-tronic.

Quote :

I am glad flat-shifting has gone, it was wholey unrealistic, in a BIG way

fine with me. I just would've left the "auto throttle blip" and "auto throttle cut" in - the latter as always activated for "cheap" wheels.

Quote from danowat :

No change for non-clutch users really, all they need to do is lift the throttle when changing gear

... which is not nearly as smooth as RL-shifting, and most of all nonexistent in RL and just a LFS-only-hassle.

Quote from Linsen :

what were you doing before the patch if you, apparantly, don't have a clutch paddle, yet you chose to manual clutch?

I didn't clutch manually and I don't now. I just pushed the "up-paddle" and stayed on the throttle - like in any RL "tiptronic"-car.

Quote from sinbad :

Yep, I don't know what the fuss is all about.
The FBMW is a piece of cake to change gears with. You drive, hold the up-paddle, quick lift of throttle and it changes, release paddle. Just as you would pre-load the seq. lever in the real thing.

I've never driven such a car in real life so I can't really tell. Must be similar to a motorbike.
I was talking more about the roadcars anyway.


You know, it's like with many other things in games/sims that want to be realistic: there's a feature added that may be realistic at its own but doesn't add to the realism in context but only makes the gameplay more complicated (which is not equal to realistic).

Is shifting tiptronic-style realistic? Not generally but at least for some cars.
Is it the most practicable solution for standard wheels w/o clutch and h-shifter? YES.
Is shifting RL h-shifter style but adapted to buttons (like it is now) realistic? Not for a single car in the world.
Is it the most practicalbe solution? Not by far.

So what would be THE reason to have it like it is now?

Last edited by Bandit77, Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:08.

Quote from Shotglass :

which on a f3000 would likely be no more than 1000km

you're absolutely right. therefore 3l roadcars don't rev to 9000 rpm and produce 450 hp.

by the way, I just read they were limited to 9000 rpm by regulations, so you can be pretty sure that's where they had their maximum power - anything else wouldn't make much sense, unless you can produce far more than 350 nm of torque with a 3l non-turbo engine.

ok, this was mentioned briefly before but I think I have to say this (again):

shifting using a "standard" wheel with "flappy paddles" resp. buttons to change gears now totally sucks.

now you have to push a button (clutch) and another one (gear) to shift... name ONE rl car where you have to do this.

ok, the flat-shifting cutting the throttle a bit is realistic, but non-H-shifter-and-clutch-pedal-users should still get a chance to shift conventionally (i.e. not flat-shifting) without being finger-virtuosos.

I know that the average hatchback hasn't got a sequential gearbox with flappy-paddles, but not having the big hardware it feels much better in the game to have the computer cut/blip throttle and clutch than doing it with a bunch of buttons.

... if this stays as it is, I will have to get a macro running for the shifting-procedure.

Quote from Shotglass :

while all of this is true i seriously doubt that a 450hp formula engine would not be designed in such a way to use its powerband effectively instead of cutting it short with a limiter

oh yes, it is. that's why some (probably all) of them can temporary disengage the limiter to accelerate a bit harder. sporty cars and sportscars have their maximum power just a tad before or even on the redline - that's just the way it is. reving further would be better for acceleration but worse for engine-life.

where you put the limiter is a question of how long you want the engine to live.

Quote from three_jump :

Live For Speed - The BMW Simulator

haha. that's exactly what I was thinking too. let me guess: one of the next added cars will be either a front engine, RWD coupe with 350ish horsepowers or an unbelievably heavy V8-roadster with 400 horsepowers.

... or a scooter with a roof??

anyway, I'm really looking forward to the rest of the patch.

what about insim "outrun" or "test drive"?




... or insim NFS?

yeah, enough FPS (around 60) at the moment. the thing is: when I turn on AA and AF, it LOOKS crappy, I think. ok, the FPS drop to about 20 too, which isn't a nice side effect.

Yeah I know it's a crappy card. But nevertheless, if someone also uses this model, I'd be glad to hear how to set it up for LFS to get the most out of it.

thanks

Quote from Gentlefoot :

But if you are experienced at driving quickly and can cope with a bit of oversteer, a bit more rear roll bar, especially on FWD cars can result in a big improvement in balance without wrecking the smooth ride road setups give.

In my case I'd first have to tear out my ESP. But I'm quite happy with the balance anyway.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Therefore two tyres with equal load (say 500kgf) on each will give more grip than one tyre with 999kgf and the other with 1kgf.

aaahh... I actually thought it must have had something to do with this.

thanks for the explication.