Quote from StewartFisher :

No, I specifically mentioned that if pressure had been put on Stepney to provide the information (or financial reward), then it would be wrong.

And since there was no pressure on Stepney it should be right?
If I stole the source code of the company I work for and gave it to the chief developer of another company I'd be guilty of intellectual property violations, and the other company would be guilty too. I'd just be fired and prosecuted, with perfectly good reasons. And I'd be convicted, no matter if I saw any money or if I was pressured.

Things just work this way.

Edit: and no, Ferrari isn't at fault. Not even slightly. This unauthorised flow of information went from Ferrari to McLaren, so Ferrari has been damaged while not being guilty of any wrongdoing. Such things shouldn't be even discussed, or mentioned. They are obvious for me and they are obvious for lawyers and judges.

Last edited by Albieg, Sun, 16 Sep 2007 17:12.

Quote from ajp71 :

Driving opponents off and parking on the track - well a certain Ferrari driver did that occasionally, look at the vids to decide if you want to side with him.

I don't side with anyone, and certainly not with Schumacher. But it seems that a lot of people are completely unable to cope with the seriousness of what McLaren did, so they minimise it, imagine conspiracies, point the finger somewhere else and even insult opposing teams and supporters (I'm talking generally, not referring to one particular McLaren supporter or to you).

I don't like team orders and cheating, everything should be punished, but there's a lot of difference between the things you mention and what McLaren did, otherwise the sponsors wouldn't talk about revisiting contracts and there wouldn't be all this fuss. It's another matter of fact. McLaren supporters and Ferrari haters may feel hurt, but they choose the wrong targets in my opinion: they should blame McLaren, not the rest of the world. Or, at least, they should blame the guilty people inside McLaren, and - again - these people are important in McLaren. No minimising or finger pointing could convince me that what McLaren did was right, and I'm not talking as a current or former Ferrari supporter.

Edit: There's an interesting 10 minutes interview with Mosley on BBC. He quickly and efficiently recollects what happened, then gives his opinion on the judgement. It seems an honest interview.

Last edited by Albieg, Sun, 16 Sep 2007 08:43.

Quote from StewartFisher :

Can anybody tell me what's wrong with what McLaren did?

Just reverse the facts: imagine that what McLaren did was done by Ferrari and everything will be instantly clear, and extremely serious.

Glad to know your PC is working again as it should.

As I said, if nothing has changed in your PC this could be tracked to a lot of stuff... But something WAS changed in your PC, isn't it?

That could easily be the reason.

You could go back to a system restore point just before the update, or uninstall the update, or use the drivers provided by the manufacturer.
I'd go for the restore point, it's painless, check if it works and then exclude the update from future proposals.

So we must assume that, in your words, the chief designer is not part of a wider team, the racers are not part of a wider team and a test driver that is directly tied to car development is not part of the wider team, and the involvement of all these people having key positions inside the team doesn't mean that the wider team is involved. What more do you need, Ron Dennis' dog being involved? I really don't understand. This sounds like comedic science fiction to me. Anyway, you're free to believe what you want, I'll keep believing that Santa Claus doesn't exist.

The red highlighting in TCPView means that a connection is torn down, so I believe from what you're writing that the connection goes down immediately after having been established.

My LFS opens UDP port 31000 at the start; another UDP port is used when I connect to a server. So, when a connection to a server is operating, I have two UDP ports and a TCP one. When you connect to the master server first the master is contacted, then a lot of short TCP connections to each server that the master has offered as a result of your query are issued: you should see them in green (established) and yellow (changing state). They become red only when the connections are no longer existing. To have a clearer view you can untick "Show unconnected endpoints" under Options in TCPView. This won't, however, show the UDP ports, which are important.

Then try again to reconnect to a server. It should open the TCP port for the server and establish a connection, start downloading skins on a normal http port from Scavier's servers, open an UDP port.


These are the ports used by LFS when I have a stable connection to CTRA Single Seater:

LFS.exe:4164 TCP desktop:2803 no.rdns-yet.24-play.com:2007 ESTABLISHED
LFS.exe:4164 UDP desktop:2822 *:*
LFS.exe:4164 UDP desktop:31000 *:*

UDP, being a connectionless protocol, doesn't show an endpoint. It's used to send packets when needed, but to know where packets go you need a packet capture software.

The name of the host you see is gathered from reversed dns lookups, and it doesn't differ for me. It should suffice to say it's okay.

My hypothesis, in this case, doesn't vary. Something is shutting down the connection to the server soon after it has been established. Either you have a connectivity problem related to firewall/routing issues or it's a form of traffic shaping, or a provider side problem. Since it happens on a port not devoted to the stuff usually devoted to web surfing or mail I'd ask the ISP, and I would try to compare the result with different online games to see if they are affected. I'd try with something like TrackMania Nations, or something similar and free, working on non http ports.

As I said before, TCPView is rather limited in scope, so an analysis to have better hints has to be done with Wireshark or similar stuff. Unfortunately I cannot ask you to save a short packet capture and send it to me to check if I see something wrong since it could capture also some sensitive data. My first advice would be to check in gaming forums if there's someone else having troubles with your ISP, or call directly your ISP to know if they have implemented some brand new traffic shaping tactic that may interfere with online gaming, or if they have some trouble.

Last edited by Albieg, Sat, 15 Sep 2007 19:32.

I never liked Hubbard's works. I didn't like his style, I've almost forgot what he wrote and how he wrote it. Probably I'm only interested in science fiction when it trascends the genre boundary to become Literature, and there are only a few names that I'm sympathetic with: Philip K. Dick, Walter J. Miller Jr, Kurt Vonnegut, to name some. And of course, Aldous Huxley. Not even Gibson, who I respect very much but I don't like, although his style is nothing short of excellent.

All these people, regardless of their political/religious positions, had an excellent way of presenting the social context surrounding the facts depicted in their novels. I can't recognise this ability in Hubbard.

Edit: Eurema's Dam by RA Lafferty is one of my favourite short stories ever.

Last edited by Albieg, Sat, 15 Sep 2007 18:30.

Quote from ajp71 :

documents Ferrari probably has detailing the internals of the McLaren and the active diff that that Senna wiped the floor with at Donnington.

Maybe, probably, perhaps. Interesting words that have no meaning if they cannot be backed by evidence.

Once again, can you prove what you say? No. Voice your doubts if you like, but the real difference here is that what happened to McLaren is based on facts.

When you connect to a server two ports are used, a TCP one and an UDP one. I don't know exactly which of the two is used for guest info traffic. You can start investigating with TCPView by Sysinternals. Download it, use LFS in windowed mode so you can take a look to both windows and try looking at what happens. Does the TCP connection to the server work? Does the UDP connection work?

If you really want to have all the relevant information about network traffic and established TCP connections (UDP is connectionless) you'll need something more serious than TCPView to understand if there is a correct flow of data. Wireshark is a good, freely available packet capture software package.

If nothing has changed in your PC or network setup, I'd guess that this new behaviour could be traced back to the ISP, either for temporary connectivity problem or for freshly implemented traffic shaping/blocking measures.

Quote from diablo21 :

MAYBE, there was something more serious this time but this has been happening since F1 started. Even Jackie Stewart said it in an interview.

A well known interview, I'd say. But as long as you can't provide any new evidence I can safely consider this the most serious case of espionage in F1. That's what the proven facts suggest. You can always counter those facts if you want, but a "MAYBE" won't be sufficient.

Quote from diablo21 :

Let me laugh about that

Since you have all these information about mass scale cheating in F1, wouldn't you please provide them to FIA and WMSC?

If you can't or if you're unwilling to do so, I must assume that the scale of what McLaren did is much more documented or serious than what you're talking about.

I have no rosey glasses on, I understand that cheating is nothing new and that no one, under a thorough investigation, may come clean, but I prefer to rely upon evidence to support a conclusion. If you have something relevant apart from well known facts/rumours that could help improve sportsmanship in F1 please share it with the appropriate persons. You'd do a favour to the whole circus.

It works, but the site times out often. I have to reload a page multiple times.

Quote from axus :

It seems the drivers knew after all. They should have been excluded from the drivers' championship then.

Max Mosley, with a letter dated 30th August, granted immunity to the drivers if they cooperated. Someone then decided to save his ass while still possible, with trouble looming ahead.

That's why the emails incriminating McLaren went public, because Alonso gave them to FIA. The authenticity of the mails isn't disputed at the moment.

Does this immunity stuff suck? Of course it does. The whole story stinks, but the stench isn't coming from Ferrari. Those who don't like this idea can always come out with their evidence, as Alonso did...

And, regarding drivers immunity, Ferrari knew about it, maybe they even encouraged Mosley for his letter because it was the only way to gather the needed evidence to achieve the best possible result (in a legal way ). For sure they must have preemptively accepted that the outcome of the judgement wouldn't involve the drivers, although they were part in cause (at least De la Rosa and Alonso). That's why Ferrari is satisfied with the outcome, although they are far more interested in racers championship than in the constructor championship.

Quote from bozo :

It's the same both ways. There's just no evidence either way.

Evidence? What kind of evidence? Emails? Short messages from Stepney to Coughlan?

De la Rosa writes to Alonso on 25th March:

"It comes from Nigel Stepney, their former chief mechanic - I don't know what post he holds now.
"He's the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi (Raikkonen) was stopping in lap 18. He's very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our chief designer and he told him that."

This mail (along with tons of other communications) shows total awareness of the fact that Ferrari's data was used inside the team to gain an advantage. I really couldn't see harder evidence than that. Coughlan and Stepney lawyers have a huge problem to solve because all of this evidence would stand perfectly in a trial.

Quote from bozo :

I did read the whole report before posting ... and kept coming across statements where the WMSC were given evidence that Coughlan or de la Rosa had information, and then surmised that they 'must have' informed the team

Alonso was for sure informed, since the actual content of the emails tells so. The chief designer, a test driver and a driver... Isn't that enough to consider a team involved, or not?

Does Dennis not knowing excuse McLaren in its entirety, or not?

Quote from xaotik :

Either pro- or con- they seem to revolve around that "the State, my country, is the best and loves me" and "the State, my country is not my friend".

True. For example I believe that all States (or most of the States) are just a bad refinement of Hobbes' Leviathan and I see them as a form of necessary evil that must be controlled thoroughly.

But that's a conclusion, you always have to analyse the facts to your best ability to understand if a single action is abusive or not, and if you can consider that action part of a larger strategy.

Aristotle's thoughts about demagogy and democracy are still valid today, after all. That shouldn't lead to conspiracy theories in all cases, anyway.

Quote from xaotik :

There's no end to it other than concluding to some vague generalization like "the State is not my friend". You can spare yourself the time and effort, since life is too short, and begin with that assumption to start with.

No, thanks. Your assumption is, in my views, a conclusion. It's the same for you, I guess.

Becky, I giggled reading your words about freedom and democracy. Here's why:

Quote :

The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using that word if it were tied down to any one meaning. Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way.

George Orwell, Politics and the English Language, 1946

Quote from atledreier :

That's worth more than all the WRs in the world!

Congratulations

Quote from zeugnimod :

Yes.

But its "verstehen". "Verstanden" is the past or passive form.

Damn .

Something didn't sound well, in effects. That happens when your mind is prone to remembering 'Feuchtigkeitsempfindlich' instead of simpler (but less funny) stuff.

Quote from zeugnimod :

Oh no, they are doing it again.

Ich kann nur ein wenig Deutsch sprechen oder verstanden.

Sounds better?
Anyway my German wouldn't allow me to survive a few days in Germany without resorting to English or gestures, so I didn't list it. And a German forumer a few days ago told me I knew my stuff... Rispettare!

That means "to respect" as a verb, and not "respect" as a noun (which is "rispetto"). This happens when you use an automatic translator or a dictionary that doesn't make any difference between nouns and verbs.

And finally a curiosity: This is the above two paragraphs translated by Babelfish to Italian, and back to English:

In any case my German would not allow that me he survives some days in Germany without to resort to English or the gestures, so as to I have not listed it. And forumer German some days ago sayings me to I have known mine roba... To respect! That one means "to respect" as verbo and "you do not respect" like name (that it is "respect"). That happens when used a translator automatic rifle or a dictionary that not ago some difference between the names and the verbos.

You can do that trick anytime you like. Add Japanese in the translation chain to have a better laugh.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Yeah I understand that. I don't know. I just know a lot of talented people who are putting a lot of effort into going nowhere and it reminds me of them.

It could be, but it wasn't wasted time for him. I may not like the way he uses it, and dedicated his spare time to his dream, not mine. Who am I to judge the way someone pursues his happiness, as long as his happiness doesn't harm me?

It's an amazing job, and an amazing display of dedication. I just wish I had the same dedication for the stuff that really bothers me. Respect is due.

Last edited by Albieg, Sat, 8 Sep 2007 19:06.

Quote from TypeRCivic :

lol I need to get some of these games to fill my boring life....J/K

You could try this one. Maybe you won't play it that much, but you'll have a laugh.

Italian, Friulian, Engrish, Europanto.

Liberals, conservatives, communists, socialists, anarchists. We've grown so detached from the real meaning of words that all of these terms have become meaningless insults. George Orwell blamed this deterioration of language as a result of dictatorship. I love Orwell's works, but he was wrong. It was (and it is) lack of faith and of interest in our own abilities, which led (and leads) to delegation of power to people we think are in the know.

Quote :

In our age there is no such thing as ‘keeping out of politics’. All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia. When the general atmosphere is bad, language must suffer.

George Orwell, Politics and the English Language, 1946