They're a good cheap laugh and make for a great cheap and extremely tough rally car. Mine did its first (road) rally on Friday and was one of if not the fastest car on the rally at some points thanks to its narrow tyres and ridiculously high ground clearance taking snowy roads with ease and spent most of its time sideways, whilst the front wheel drive stuff with big tyres was hopeless
Engines have to be standard and fitted to the car originally.
I reckon you gave up half way through my post, I eventually started going on about oval racing so a bodykit is the last thing I want.
Having been to Standlake today the class that stood out to me as most appealing was the saloon rods, front wheel drive hatches, saloons and coupes with standard original fitment engines, with no limits on capacity and fuel injected engines are permitted (presumably including 4/5 valve multipoint injection). Whilst one could waste a lot of money and spend a huge amount of money to produce the perfect completely standard engine it wouldn't have that great an advantage in a varied class and didn't look like big money was being spent in this class, why you would do so and not upgrade the car in the process is beyond me. We're after a cheap laugh and some good wheel to wheel racing, we're realistic and fully aware that a well prepped Nova with a standard engine is going to be as quick if not faster than a bigger coupe/saloon, its just more appealing for us to have a bigger proper saloon racing car for peanuts.
I can get pipe bent at work if that was the only issue, equally if it was just the odd weld I could get that done, being realistic though it is a big job, getting someone to do it all in one go is so much less of a pain in the arse than trying to get it done on the cheap. Needless to say if the car and my work are a 3 hour round trip away its a hell of a lot of petrol driving back and forth everytime I want to try it in the car! I'm going to ask this guy for a quote for a cage along the lines of his Fiesta one for a saloon car with the main hoop, cross and back stay in CDS and all the front bits in seamed tube.
Tube bending equipment is way out of our reach, and trying to do it all on too small a bender or without the correct attachment fitted will result in kinks in the tube, rendering them unworthy for any structural purpose (but frighteningly they get away with it on gash FIA spec cars.
The original idea was to get a Rover 214 because one of the other guys has one and needs bits of trim for his, a 1.4 because it would be small enough to be eligible for endurance rallies. For this purpose I'm not sure what would be best, usually a Nova is the most popular choice but they're hard to find for reasonable money given the fact they are the most popular choice for so much low cost motorsport. For this reason most series are starting to accept Nova engines in Corsas.
Stock rods
I'm moving in to a house with a couple of mates on my course in the Summer and like most students we're already focusing on the important things, like getting a project car of some kind.
We've thrown a few ideas around and what started as a cheap stripped out hatch back for road rallies and the odd track day increasingly got more and more expensive. We're now thinking that preparing a road legal car isn't the right way to go, for road rallies the cars we already have are fine and in all likelihood a more modified car would just be a pain on the road. Then there is the issue of cost of getting it on the road which is going to be £600 insurance (I got a very reasonable quote through Adrian Flux, 3 drivers, limited mileage, Rover 214 stage rally car), £120 tax, £60 MOT. In contrast a track car of some sort would only incur the cost of a trailer test and trailer plus a bit more fuel before we actually get somewhere, which shouldn't be £800.
Then we get to the question of what to go for, a track day car would be fun, but TBH trackdays are fun in the cheap road cars we've got already and lack that competitive edge. Speed events would be appealing but there's the cost of safety equipment and very limited time in car for the money. Circuit racing is prohibitively expensive, we'd need an ARDS course each and all the relevant safety equipment before we even get to the cost of the entries. Stage rallying is ultimately what we'd like to do, but its the same as circuit racing plus the cost of intercoms and personally I would refuse to go anywhere near a stage rally car that didn't have an extensive weld in rollcage, which we have no way of building and no chance of paying for.
The option we reckon might be the best to take is the short oval racing route, I've only been to a couple of meetings (one at Grimley one at Standlake) and have been generally very impressed with it, close but clean racing, cheap cars, nominal entry fees and close enough (local track is 7 miles away I think) that any old trailer would do behind even a typical student motor. I'm going to the meeting at Standlake tomorrow as well to take a closer look at the cars and will try and speak to some competitors to get some more ideas.
The main issues for us would be that we will have restricted access to welding equipment, there is somewhere I can do it, but I would probably have to trail the car there each night and the welding equipment is pretty basic. Ironically given the fact that I'm going to be paying my share by building rollcages I do not consider myself a sufficiently competent welder to weld a rollcage and have no access to tube benders in Oxford, its the one thing I wish to avoid skimping on/getting second hand because I am sure there are plenty of people out there who couldn't do half a good as job as I could who will happily produce a bad example (I've seen enough reasonably big budget circuit cars done appallingly badly and don't fancy taking the chance). There is someone I've seen who looks like he produces good bolt in cages for these cars for around £300, though they aren't seamless, I'll probably try and see if it is possible to get the main hoops/crosses in CDS and then have the door bars in the cheaper seamed tube, that way it would both be stronger and eligible for more things if we wanted it to (the door bars fit right up to the outer skin of the door, so not allowed in MSA racing anyway). Other than the rollcage I think most of the major costs are covered, I've got access to good FIA seatbelts/helmets/overalls that are all invalid due to age but that I know the history of so am happy to use.
I'd be interested to here from anybody involved in such things as to what realistic budgets and running costs might be?
We've thrown a few ideas around and what started as a cheap stripped out hatch back for road rallies and the odd track day increasingly got more and more expensive. We're now thinking that preparing a road legal car isn't the right way to go, for road rallies the cars we already have are fine and in all likelihood a more modified car would just be a pain on the road. Then there is the issue of cost of getting it on the road which is going to be £600 insurance (I got a very reasonable quote through Adrian Flux, 3 drivers, limited mileage, Rover 214 stage rally car), £120 tax, £60 MOT. In contrast a track car of some sort would only incur the cost of a trailer test and trailer plus a bit more fuel before we actually get somewhere, which shouldn't be £800.
Then we get to the question of what to go for, a track day car would be fun, but TBH trackdays are fun in the cheap road cars we've got already and lack that competitive edge. Speed events would be appealing but there's the cost of safety equipment and very limited time in car for the money. Circuit racing is prohibitively expensive, we'd need an ARDS course each and all the relevant safety equipment before we even get to the cost of the entries. Stage rallying is ultimately what we'd like to do, but its the same as circuit racing plus the cost of intercoms and personally I would refuse to go anywhere near a stage rally car that didn't have an extensive weld in rollcage, which we have no way of building and no chance of paying for.
The option we reckon might be the best to take is the short oval racing route, I've only been to a couple of meetings (one at Grimley one at Standlake) and have been generally very impressed with it, close but clean racing, cheap cars, nominal entry fees and close enough (local track is 7 miles away I think) that any old trailer would do behind even a typical student motor. I'm going to the meeting at Standlake tomorrow as well to take a closer look at the cars and will try and speak to some competitors to get some more ideas.
The main issues for us would be that we will have restricted access to welding equipment, there is somewhere I can do it, but I would probably have to trail the car there each night and the welding equipment is pretty basic. Ironically given the fact that I'm going to be paying my share by building rollcages I do not consider myself a sufficiently competent welder to weld a rollcage and have no access to tube benders in Oxford, its the one thing I wish to avoid skimping on/getting second hand because I am sure there are plenty of people out there who couldn't do half a good as job as I could who will happily produce a bad example (I've seen enough reasonably big budget circuit cars done appallingly badly and don't fancy taking the chance). There is someone I've seen who looks like he produces good bolt in cages for these cars for around £300, though they aren't seamless, I'll probably try and see if it is possible to get the main hoops/crosses in CDS and then have the door bars in the cheaper seamed tube, that way it would both be stronger and eligible for more things if we wanted it to (the door bars fit right up to the outer skin of the door, so not allowed in MSA racing anyway). Other than the rollcage I think most of the major costs are covered, I've got access to good FIA seatbelts/helmets/overalls that are all invalid due to age but that I know the history of so am happy to use.
I'd be interested to here from anybody involved in such things as to what realistic budgets and running costs might be?
Last edited by ajp71, .
I think its a terrible annoying fad, less expensive and less of a pain in the arse single though.
Decided I really need some better tyres before I take it on a rally on Friday so have ordered Continentals at £45 each from my local tyre place.
The prices certainly make it look tempting
13" high performance tyres are common, it is the low end of the high performance market/ridiculously low profile tyres that are missing because the idiots who like to have stupidly low profile tyres also like big rims. Toyo R888s are available in 13" and A048/A032 (175/70/R13 is one of the five sizes Yokohama list for the A032Rs).
That is totally wrong, in the Autocar test (28/1/09) the Continental Premium 2 stopped a Golf from 50mph whilst the cheapest budget tyre was still traveling at 27.8mph, I think most people would rather take the extra £80 or so for a set of tyres than hit something at that speed. I am not after ultra high performance tyres, just simply a nice safe set of tyres that will be predictable and give safe amounts of grip in the wet without costing the earth. I wouldn't want ultra high performance tyres because they are not suitable on grounds of cost, wear rates, overloading standard components, having too specialised a tread pattern that would only be any good in the dry/wet/snow/off road, I really want something that does all of those reasonably well.
Cheap(ish) tyres
My car currently has 1 Westlake, 1 Riken, 1 Seibreingen (something like that) and 1 Strada (thankfully all) 175/70/RT13 fitted to it. Whilst I am not too bothered about having performance tyres for dry grip I do consider using 4 different tyre brands on a vehicle is a bit of a piss take
I would like to put some decent safe tyres on that aren't going to throw up any unwanted surprises on track days and road rallies.
So I'm looking for a set of 175/70/R13 speed rating T or higher, here's the list of what I can get from etyres (though I could use anybody), in order of ascending price.
Firestone Multihawk
Toyo 350
Pirelli P3000
Continental Eco Contact 3
Goodyear Duragrip
Dunlop SP30
Michelin Energy E3B
Bridgestone B250
Toyo F8
My main concerns about the tyres are their performance in the wet, something which cheap tyres performed horrendously badly at compared with Continentals in a recent Autocar test. If there isn't a lot in it the Toyo tyres are probably the most desirable because I should be able to get them cheaply. I haven't really been able to find much in the way of a proper comparison of tyres on the web, surely somebody must have done one somewhere?
I would like to put some decent safe tyres on that aren't going to throw up any unwanted surprises on track days and road rallies.
So I'm looking for a set of 175/70/R13 speed rating T or higher, here's the list of what I can get from etyres (though I could use anybody), in order of ascending price.
Firestone Multihawk
Toyo 350
Pirelli P3000
Continental Eco Contact 3
Goodyear Duragrip
Dunlop SP30
Michelin Energy E3B
Bridgestone B250
Toyo F8
My main concerns about the tyres are their performance in the wet, something which cheap tyres performed horrendously badly at compared with Continentals in a recent Autocar test. If there isn't a lot in it the Toyo tyres are probably the most desirable because I should be able to get them cheaply. I haven't really been able to find much in the way of a proper comparison of tyres on the web, surely somebody must have done one somewhere?
The 155mph speed limiters are part of an informal agreement between car manufacturers and government bodies (namely German) to restrict the top speed of cars primarily on the Autobahn on grounds of safety, it has nothing to do with the ability of these cars to be driven at very high speeds, many of the cars are later redistricted and some cars are still sold without the limiters. A well designed road car should not be able to drive itself into catastrophic lift. IIRC the issue with the TTs was at least partly that they were not setup with sufficient understeer for the typical morons who drive such cars fast without a clue, and subsequently were made into the horrible things they are today with both aero and supension changes.
Road rallying is about driving down rural roads fast. They're relatively safe, obviously the roads are by nature slow with a target speed of only 30mph being very difficult to keep up with (assuming you get lost). That's not to say that crashes aren't a common occurrence, just that the typical off in a road rally amounts to little more than panel damage and a tow out of a ditch. The speeds on well chosen properly rural roads are sufficiently low that when it all goes wrong you can normally loose most of the speed before you run out of the black stuff. Well chosen routes will be such that triple figures are not possible and running at night has several advantages, firstly there is almost no traffic or pedestrians about, secondly oncoming vehicles can be seen from a much further distance and thirdly when you can't see a lot on a road you don't know your never going to drive as fast.
Far more dangerous is the thrash down a somewhat wider, faster road you know very well in the middle of the day.
You have amazing roads in Nevada and Death Valley that are just straight until the horizon with absolutely nothing along them, truly mind blowing and I think one can really drive as fast as they like down such roads without endangering anybody but themselves.
No car should suffer from high speed aerodynamic instability unless they have either had huge design flaws (late 90s GT1 cars and current prototypes) or are operating well outside their design limits without any proper care and consideration being made to the effect (that RX7, the AC Cobra, lots of tuned American stuff...). A standard production car in good condition should remain safe and stable to its designed maximum speed with a significant safety margin.
So you accidentally banned yourself 29 times? The only ban I've ever been able to get was due having freedom of opinion on the LFS forum, and I'm proud of it
As fast as a 1.6 Focus and 1.5 Lada Riva will go, nothing particuarly interesting or clever about it though.
Given that he drove into you and you are claiming from his insurance (you have a lot less levering available when it is you're claiming from your own policy) you should be able to get the work done anywhere you want to at a reasonable price and they will pay up, if not they should at least offer you the full value in cash of a high quality repair with genuine parts. If you're driving an old car and buy cheap panels and do the repair yourself you can get a reasonable amount of cash in hand, I know two people who have been taken out by buses in the last month and done this.
Pretty considerate parking really, bet you could make it fill six spaces if you tried.
Now this is an extremely silly statement, the last time I checked internal combustion engines worked by igniting a fuel, the composition of which is obviously going to be critical to how said device works.
There are specification sheets and information about most premium fuels available with a quick search.
Having to remap a car for a change in fuel is bollocks, road car ECUs are designed to take whatever rubbish Americans throw in their cars to BP Ultimate and anything in between the ECU is capable of adjusting itself to cope and take advantage of whatever fuel has been put in.
Even race ECUs that are properly mapped (rather than the typical rubbish mapping produced by people who don't know what they're doing) with a specific fuel will still take different fuels without too big an issue most of our cars run guaranteed oxygen content 99 octane race fuel, which is very different from super unleaded fuels in terms of quality. They tend to get mapped on this but run 102 octane high oxygen content race fuel at times (it is the control fuel for the Silverstone 24 hour), otherwise it is whatever the customers want/provide, some of which looks suspiciously like pump fuel of some description in jerry cans! Only the 109 octane very high oxygen content rocket fuel requires a remap to run the fuel, it also requires an engine rebuild to make any sense of using the special fuel/safely run lower octane fuels again.
America is sparsely populated so I guess noise restrictions are less of an issue, alternatively just bribe a load of Italians and run your test track in the middle of a town!
Bumpdrafting has no place for circuit racing, making contact for any reason on a race circuit is totally unacceptable, if cars are already at their limits at high speed then the results of a tap are pretty inevitable.
I highly doubt many drivers follow behind you to piss you off when there is a clear opportunity to pass, applying the brakes is a completely retarded thing to do and I am certain that should you stand up in court and say you caused a fatal accident by braking hard and needlessly you'd be going on holiday.
I really don't have a lot to worry about in that regard I drive a solid old Lada that came pre-dented anyway. I'd do the same thing in the Focus though, if I damaged my car (or any other car in the process) then it would be way to hard a tap and not justifiable for any reason.
I hail from the drunken haze that is Brookes, not a true Oxfordian
If you're on ice and having difficultly braking cadence braking isn't going to help you stop, finding a patch of snow or tarmac is your only real hope, just getting out of the worn tracks and locking up on slush will be better than sitting on ice.
Standard diesel will come from anywhere where its been bought on the market, one company won't supply the same fuel everytime.
It is an old unstressed standard road engine, you do not need to start adding additives to the fuel, which may have some justification for lead replacement or in specialist applications, however you do not have a fragile racing engine, nor are you running high compression.If you're worried about money don't spend it on magic all-in-one additives. Equally you do not need premium quality oils in your car, if you've got the money to spend and are going to be driving the car hard then they might be worth it, but you will be driving it round like a granny trying to save money. Whatever you do don't put in lower viscosity oils into your engine, you'll only cause damage and waste money. Just put Halfords 10W/40 in and make sure you change oil regularly, check your Haynes manual but you probably don't need to put synthetic oil into that thing.
Loving the snow, no less than 14 buses stuck over a third of a mile (according to google maps) on Headington Hill, a small hill in Oxford.
Cadence braking is not an effective way to stop a car in snow. Locking the wheels and letting the snow build up can be the only way of stopping, precisely the time you don't want ABS.
Cadence braking is not an effective way to stop a car in snow. Locking the wheels and letting the snow build up can be the only way of stopping, precisely the time you don't want ABS.
Last edited by ajp71, .
Tapping the brakes or otherwise is still extremely dangerous, not least because you are wanting the car behind to think you are slowing down.
There's no requirement for an F1 car to test in official FIA sanctioned F1 tests. They can be tested on private circuits (a la Ferrari), a circuit with full sanctioning in a non-FIA/national governing body sanctioned event, all trackdays, some general testing sessions. Or it can just be brought to any general testing session that will allow it, if you really wanted to you could test your latest F1 car each Wednesday morning at Mallory for £90.
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