I think someone needs to write a patch Y FAQ because there certainly are a lot of frequently asked, er, questions. It strikes me that there is a lot of misunderstanding about the clutch, the transmission, setups, and various things relating to the patch.

It would probably help the aggression levels on the forum if we could just point someone at the FAQ when they have questions or gripes. Something that explains things in a polite, friendly, easy to understand way.

Of course, I would be happy to do it, but I'm too new to this and someone else could do a much better job of it.

(or, if there already is one, it should be posted and stickied)

Love,
Aero

You really don't need a clutch to lift or blip, that's all done with the accelerator anyways. I use a sequential and it's no problem at all- I do have a clutch pedal, but that isn't necessary with autoclutch enabled nor is it necessary for cars that actually have sequential shifters. Lifting and blipping is pretty important in the real world so it fits in fine with the sim.

You'll get used to it soon enough- it'll be second-nature before you know it. They way I think about it is as if I were selecting the gear with my sequential and actually initiating the change with my foot on the pedal either lifting or blipping. It takes a bit of practice to get the rhythm down, but you'll never have to learn it again after that.

All you have to do is turn auto-clutch on and you're good to go- that takes care of the clutch pedal for you.

Love,
Aero

ed: I use the pedalset from a Logitech Formula GP (yellow) as the clutch pedal. You can buy these new online for $20US and I bet you could find an even better deal used. No need to buy a G25 or a gated shifter and no need to have a clutch pedal at all if you're willing to enable autoclutch.

To change up, just lift off the throttle (completely at first, but you'll find that isn't necessary as you get better) hit whatever control you use to up-shift and put your foot back down again.

To downshift, just give the throttle a quick jab right as, or very slightly before, you're hitting your down-shift control.

I think you'll find that once you've mastered this (which will probably only take an hour or so) it makes the driving experience much more engaging and immersive. Just start slowly and methodically and work your way up.

Last edited by AeroMechanical, Mon 24 Dec 2007, 06:48.

Oh I largely agree with you. I think there should be options for these sorts of things (as I'm sure you're aware, NKP has the option to disable that) and I am in total agreement that we should be expressing our opinions good or bad for the sake of the development of LFS because it is an alpha and unfinished.

Of course, it's going to turn out the way it turns out. It's obviously in some sort of in-between state right now so it's sort of hard to tell what kind of simulator it is. How realistic is it going to get? Personally I don't want it to go as far as NKP if there aren't going to be options to customize the level of realism we want per server.

I like the new gearbox, it's not perfect but it's a lot more realistic than it was. I'm indifferent about the digital gauges because I prefer the analogue variety but I don't see the harm in having them. I also don't think there is anything wrong with driving aids necessarily, so long as they can be disabled on the server. Ideally I'd like the GPL style 'fudged advantage' with the aids as well. (I think I've said all this before.)

Basically, I'm in favor of options. Of course, LFS isn't done yet though so maybe we will have these options in the future. It is true that the intended way to play it is without any of these things, so I can understand that path taking priority at the moment.

I don't see why people are getting so upset though- other than because other people are pissing them off. It'll all work out. One way or another.

Love,
Aero

ed: Oh, the physics in NKP are phenomenal it's just got a lot of other problems. Honestly, I wouldn't recommend it at the moment. Wait and see what happens with the 1.03 patch. It is, of course, very, very late in coming though. Try the demo and see what you think though.

If you're after unrelenting realism in every aspect of racing. You really ought be playing NetkarPro. Of course, it's sort of in a sorry state development-wise (maybe that will change, maybe not), but it has a hardcore mode where you have to wait while your car is towed back to the pits, you have to wait while your mechanics repair damage, you have to wait while your mechanics implement your setup changes.

Yes, that is realistic, but I think it's taking things a little too far personally. Some people swear by it though, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic sim, but as far as I'm concerned the only thing that really matters is the physical modeling of the car and the handling dynamics. Because it's simulated, we have advantages over the real world like not having to wait for all that stuff. I think that's a good thing.

You give a little, you take a little. Consult your doctor, use as directed, opinions may vary.

Love,
Aero

I hadn't noticed this thread.

Hello, my name is Aero. Well, not really- my name is Andrew but Aero will do fine.

Depening on how you look at it, I've been sim-racing for a long time (since ICR) but not really- it was just one of many games I played. I bought my first wheel in 2000, but I didn't actually seriously get into sim-racing until 2005 (posting on message-boards, racing online, pretty much forsaking all other computer-games, never unclamping my wheel and that sort of thing). So, overall I'm relatively new. I don't recall exactly when I bought my S2 license, I think it was last summer and I first played the demo a year or two before that, but I hardly played LFS at all until about two or three weeks ago (patch Y rekindled my interest).

I still haven't gone online because I'm still pretty slow (can barely squeeze out a mid-high 1:16 at Blackwood in the FBMW), and I don't know all the tracks yet (I'm working on them one at a time) so it'll probably be a few weeks yet. Still, having a lot of fun learning- that has always been my favorite part.

I like the direction LFS is taking and I'll be around for sure.

Nice to meet you guys.

Love,
Aero

Regarding my previous post, I don't want the beginner mode to be compatible with the full simulation mode so there wouldn't be any advantage. Additionally, you could take the GPL route and add artificial disadvantages to the driving aids amounting to several seconds per lap per aid on servers that allow both modes. That way the noobs could still be in control of their cars and not wreck anybody else(well, unintentionally anyways), but they wouldn't win anything either. That might actually improve the overall quality of racing. Once people using the beginner mode maxed out the potential of the hobbled cars their only option would be to start losing aids if they wanted to improve any further.

Have you ever tried to get a friend of yours visiting your house into sim-racing? They spin off at the first turn, look at you like you're crazy, and leave making some excuse about forgeting to turn their oven off or something. Only once, since I started doing this, did I have a friend who spun off at the first corner and grinned a big manic grin like I did at first because it meant I was in for a real challenge.

Sim-racing isn't really that hard, it just takes some practice. The sim-racing community overall isn't very big, but there are a lot of racing fans out there who may well love it. They just need to be eased into it. If there is one thing we can't get enough of is real, serious race fans who are intersted in real, serious (virtual) racing. Even if they know perfectly well how to drive a real race-car, it takes a good bit of adjusting to drive in a simulator- again, anything to make the process quicker and easier is a Good Thing.

Love,
Aero

ed: Oh, since we've gone that way. I hear the Frex shifter is pretty good, and Thomas has one too. A little expensive, of course, but supposedly quality. I can't even afford a G25 right now though, so I wouldn't know from first-hand experience.

If it doesn't put limitations on the realism for the rest of us, I can't think of any good reason not to include driving aids for newcomers to sim-racing or people who just want a more casual experience. I don't think there is a pressing need for them, and they ought to be discouraged because you're really selling yourself short if you let the computer do a lot of the driving for you, but it never hurts to have options.

I suspect a lot of this is just a knee-jerk reaction to the changes in Y and will blow over pretty soon though. I'm pretty new to LFS but I was driving correctly before the patch. I actually didn't know you could get away with flat-shifting and such before and I would have been upset about that had I known- I don't want to put myself at a disadvantage because I want to drive closely as possible to a real car. That is upsetting.

Overall though, I think it would be a good idea to include a 'beginner' mode (please, let's not call it arcade- a sim-racer with all the aids turned on is still a far cry from an arcade game) at some point in the development of LFS. Of course, I certainly wouldn't consider it a priority.

I do think it would be in the best interst of everyone on these forums to be a little more open to other people's opinions. We know that racing sims are most rewarding when you put the effort into doing it properly, and politely explaining that while still respecting the othr position will be better for us all in the end. Would you prefer people simply gave up on LFS because they found it too difficult, or would you rather they figured out why it is that we appreciate realism down to the smallest detail and practice so that they become accomplished racers against whom we can compete?

Personally, the most fun I've ever had with sim-racers was way back in the beginning when I could barely keep the car on the road and progress came in epiphanies and great whopping chunks of time instead of hundreths of a second. It's the learning process itself that I find so rewarding.

There are a lot of great, friendly and helpful people in this community but I see so much disrespect on the forums that I can easily see why a new player would be turned off. I think we really ought to work at making this forum a more inviting place where people can come for help and ask questions or state their opinions without being treated so disrespectfully.

Oh, and sorry, that wasn't entirely on topic, but it seemed like a good time to mention it.

Love,
Aero

Hilarious.

Me too. Done properly, you really should be 'guiding' the wheel and letting the FFB do a lot of the work for you. Still, I have a lot of trouble with it. So far, I mostly drive the single-seaters and they often require really fast corrections with the wheel. My trouble is easing up in between the corners. I find I need a pretty firm grip entering a corner because I might have to suddenly whip the wheel around to catch a slide but I forget to ease back up again afterwards.

Someone mentioned it above, and I've heard it quite a few times before, that you're supposed to steer right mostly with your left hand and left mostly with your right.

Probably part of my trouble, and something that has proven to be nigh on impossible for me to overcome, is to keep my hand off the damn shifter. Bad, bad habit. :smash3d:


It's nice to know I'm not alone in this.

Love,
Aero

It took me a little while to get back to previous laptimes when I first started to learn to heel-n-toe. Any time I try to learn some new technique it gives me a lot of trouble to begin with because I have to actually consciously think about it. I would even crash in the middle of the straight before a turn because I would start to think about downshifting for the upcoming corner which would destroy my concentration. Once it becomes second-nature (which doesn't really take all that long) it all sorts itself out. It's probably best to just practice it over and over on a long straight or maybe the dragstrip or lot so you don't have to worry about corners or anything else and can just concentrate on the actual braking and downshifting.

Failing that, you can always drive it the same as you would a manual road-car (someone outlined this above). You probably have to brake a little earlier that way because you lose the 'multitasking' involved with HnT.

Merry Christmas

I would love to see this idea expanded to something similar to the way it is handled in GTR2. I thought that was a fantastic idea- it shows you where you were, whether and how much you were braking or accelerating on a previous lap. I didn't end up using it very much because it saps a lot of immersion, but it was an excellent tool for refining your laps and braking points. However, it could become a crutch if people were basing their braking points on the line itself rather than real landmarks on the track.

I tried it out the way it is now and I think it's a good idea- especially for training new players- but I'd like to see something dynamically updated that more experienced racers could use as well.

I do think it should be restricted to training or practice modes only though.

Love,
Aero

In an actual race, the speedometer isn't good for anything. I find it useful when I'm developing a setup though- sometimes it's helpful to have a look at your speed at the end of a long straight to gauge the effects of aero changes.

I haven't changed the way I drive at all and the clutch hasn't been a problem. I notice a lot of people talking about using a button for the clutch. While it's probably a good idea to have the clutch assigned to something, if you don't have a proper pedal wouldn't it be better to drive with autoclutch engaged? I just use the pedalset from a Logitech Wingman Formula GP (yellow). You can still find these new online for US$25. You don't really need much precision in the clutch pedal, so almost anything will do.

I like the patch so far, but I still think that the interface should largely be left up to the user. I hadn't played LFS in months, but the patch rekindled my interest and I've been enjoying myself so far. It's hard to put my finger on what exactly it is that I like about it, but I suspect the changes to engine inertia are key.

Love,
Aero

Nevermind.

I had never looked into scripts before. Very nice feature. That'd be the way to do it.

Love,
Aero

Okay.

I prefer analogue tachs and speedos because I find them much easier to read. I don't see why it matters though. I think the people who prefer the digital guagues would do well to try adjusting to analogue because, in my opinion, they give you a much better sense of rate-of-change, scale and proportion. I also find them easier to read at a glance.

But nevertheless, since these aren't 'real' cars anyways- why does it matter? I fail to see the problem with realism, because I can still use the 'virtual' analogue gauge as if I the cars had a HUD, so I just don't get the reasoning behind the change.

I think people should be able to set it however they like provided it doesn't give an artificial advantage. I don't see how digital displays are an advantage.

Love,
Aero


ed: It's also possible that I misunderstand the entire issue, so sorry if that's the case.

Adding the FBMW to the demo is probably a very good idea. I am mostly interested in single-seaters so the demo didn't do much for me. On top of this, word had it that single-seaters weren't a strong point of LFS, so I just skipped it.

I just happened to buy it on a whim six months or so ago, just taking a chance the single-seaters would be tolerable. As it turns out they're fine and I don't regret buying it.

I think it will help. Open-wheel is pretty popular amongst sim-racers in general. I think you will find a lot of people having a second look at the demo once Y is released.


Love,
Aero

I wouldn't hold my breath. Anyways, if you pay for S2 now you will only have to pay a little more to upgrade to S3. So there isn't any reason to wait, even if S3 does by some chance come out soon.

Yep: What he said.

Yeah, exactly. At lower speeds it will probably lock the drive-wheels and spin you out, at higher speeds it will most likely just make a mess of your clutch/transmission/engine. In LFS, I'm guessing that means heating up the clutch a lot.

Sometimes (in sims, probably not in real life but I have heard of people doing this in karts) you an actually do this on purpose for some corners. You can downshift suddenly which will lock up the wheels and make the rear step out a bit and give you a little extra oversteer to work with.

Love,
Aero

Last edited by AeroMechanical, Tue 11 Dec 2007, 23:26.

I'm not good at explaining this, but I'll try anyways:

Say you're in 5th gear at 5000RPM going 70Mph.

If you wanted to go 70Mph in 4th gear, you would need more RPMs- say 7000.

The trick is transitioning from one to the other. If the engine is spinning at 5000RPM and you're going 70Mph but you want to shift to 4th gear, you will have to get the engine spinning at 7000RPM before you shift otherwise the engine, which is connected to the wheels, will suddenly and violently be under increased load- the torque coming from the momentum of the car through the wheels will try to make the engine spin faster to even everything out.

You blip the throttle the moment before you shift (with the clutch depressed) to make the engine spin fast enough to match the speed of the wheels (drivetrain). This makes the transition smooth.

The best way to figure it out is to just try it, it's not really so complicated- I just have trouble explaining it clearly- but it should be pretty evident what is going on in LFS.

Love,
Aero

Don't know how well it will apply to LFS, but here are some handy primers. The most important thing to remember is that it isn't nearly as hard as a lot of people make it out to be. It takes practice to do it well and it's a little tricky before it becomes an automatic subconscious action, but simply doing it is not terribly hard.

http://www.drivingfast.net/car_control/heel_and_toe.htm

http://www.edmunds.com/ownersh ... ticles/45792/article.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel-and-toe

http://www.se-r.net/general/heel_toe.html

The best way to practice, is to find yourself a nice long straight (the backstraight at Blackwood would be excellent). Practice this on the straight without worrying about turning. Just do it over and over until it becomes natural.

Oh, and yes, you generally will use it all the time at every corner that requires a downshift. As far as which cars, any car that requires you to use the clutch when downshifting which is probably most of them (I'm not terribly familiar with LFS, so someone else will have to fill you in on the specifics). If you need to use the clutch, your left foot is busy so you need to brake and blip with your right.


Love,
Aero

Last edited by AeroMechanical, Tue 11 Dec 2007, 21:59.

From what I can tell, the default setup is designed to be as easy as possible to drive. Like Ajp says, lose some wing and maybe try adding a little more rear bar to tighten it up in the corners. Keep the fuel-level in mind too- that makes a big difference.

I'm not terribly experienced with LFS, and I haven't seriously had a go at setting the FBMW up yet, but after tweaking just a few little things I had to adjust the gear-ratios to keep it from over-revving. There is a lot more acceleration and top-end to be had than is available in the default setup.

Love,
Aero

ed: Oh, and if anyone knows off-hand, what is the power-band like for the FBMW?

Last edited by AeroMechanical, Tue 11 Dec 2007, 20:24.

The more realism the better. So plus one here.

Love,
Aero

ed: I'm not opposed to OPTIONAL driving aids though provided they can be disabled on the server and are segregated in lap-time records.

Last edited by AeroMechanical, Tue 11 Dec 2007, 19:15.

Anything above 90 (4:3) I find to have too much distortion, I usually like it around 70 or so, but that depends on which car I'm driving. Running Tin-Tops I prefer a smaller field of view, and a larger one for the single-seaters.

So, varying by car, I tend to run in the 70-90 range.

Love,
Aero