I know of the Braunhemden, i don't agree with anything to do with the Asov Battalion, and they should of been dealt with long ago. Cannot tar the rest of the armed forces(250.000 soldiers) with the same brush as the Asov (1500 soldiers).

Regarding Putins claims, find any Ukrainians(Not Russians living in Ukraine) that want "Liberating" by Russia, and any that agree with Putins claims.

Obviously some things are wrong on Ukraines side, such as the use of the Asov Battalion and another called Aidar, but that does not justify the war on its people and country.

Has anyone mentioned of the forced deportations of mariupol citizens into camps by Russia, which could also be likened to the Nazi's

Even though i don't agree with this, like you was saying about a democratic world and with peoples freedom of speech protected, that would make their beliefs protected aslong as they didn't go out and start doing as hitler had done.

Quote from bishtop :

Obviously some things are wrong on Ukraines side, such as the use of the Asov Battalion, but that does not justify the war on its people and country

Nobody is attempting to justify any act of war, AFAIK. This is about objectively seeking the truth, even if it's ugly.

Quote from bishtop :

the Asov Battalion [...] should of been dealt with long ago.

Let's just acknowledge that Ukraine's recognition/acceptance/integration of the Azov battalion as a police force was an action, not an inaction.

As with every conflict, diplomacy is the only way to prevent it and it is the only way it is ever concluded.

Quote from SamH :

.

As with every conflict, diplomacy is the only way to prevent it and it is the only way it is ever concluded.

Exactly , although when discussing the War, people keep diverting to accusations against Ukraine which so far not once have had any evidence to show as a fact(photos or videos) and only from the words of Pro-Russian sources and no independent sources, it's this that comes across as indirectly trying to justify whats happened by taking the focus away from Russia invading another country with no justifiable reason.

Zelensky is willing to talk about neutrality in peace talks with Russia, which what most say is what Putin wants, Ukraine to not be a part of Nato. So maybe some hope for that

Quote from Kahn62 :

...It is only since the dark ages, that poor people were brainwashed into believing that the earth was flat. Many ancients knew the truth of it, and ALL of the enlightened ones knew it the whole time.

Kinda off-topic although still reflecting on your post:
The so-called dark ages became possible via the proceeding of the Christian church.
All the knowledge that had been gathered through thousands and thousands (younger Dryas isn't a hypothesis anymore, more on this can be found easily) of years went missing through the fire, and the sole interest of the church was to lock people into the material (inquisition).
Cathars and Rosicrucians were the last rock standing through the storm of centuries. There is no coincidence in this world, but the amount of information flowing around nowadays doesn't help at all to find a path if you have an internal calling to understand ourselves inside and outside as well. Without understanding genuine serenity can not be achieved, therefore won't be peace in minds, which is the source of the ignition of war.

The age of Aquarius hasn't come with peace upon us, but everything is sourced from our free will.
All of us are brothers and sisters, we are coming from the same root, therefore fighting against each other is blatantly stupid!

Sorry for the off-topic post.

Quote from TAJM :

All of us are brothers and sisters, we are coming from the same root, therefore fighting against each other is blatantly stupid!

Sorry for the off-topic post.

No worries its not Off-topic, and is something that i have always been a believer of.

Quote from bishtop :

You assume

wrong again, I am just telling some personal experience. You are the one making assumptions out of it.

And this is the key element in this topic, assumptions. Stop making them and you get somewhere. This is leading to nowhere.

This for example;

Quote :

Has anyone mentioned of the forced deportations of mariupol citizens into camps by Russia,

Assumption. All based on this corrupt city mayor. If you cannot see that there is a constant stream of lies coming from that area its better to turn off this stream of information and focus on your own work expertise (whatever that may be) instead of starting to chant all kind of weird stuff which has nothing to do with your own culture.

There is a guy, commonly known in our MTB circle by the name Roma 'Kokos'.
He's a mechanic, lives in Chernigov, UA.
I was waiting for info from him since 24,02,22. And was happy to found a new video on his channel, seeing him alive and keeping his sense of humor, telling us a story about a "garage secutity tips". In that video he ironically discuss a five weak aspects of a 'soviet era garage' and concludes it with the 'weakest part' as a low tank missile resistance. And i would not post it here, since it's a mountainbike people topic.
But here's his new video, that i think is may be interesting for an automotive people either:

This is his Lancia Delta project:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LxY4FxPwLbE
and this is what happened to garage:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q592986jJb0

Quote from cargame.nl :

wrong again, I am just telling some personal experience. You are the one making assumptions out of it.

And this is the key element in this topic, assumptions. Stop making them and you get somewhere. This is leading to nowhere.

This for example;



Assumption. All based on this corrupt city mayor. If you cannot see that there is a constant stream of lies coming from that area its better to turn off this stream of information and focus on your own work expertise (whatever that may be) instead of starting to chant all kind of weird stuff which has nothing to do with your own culture.

Firstly you said "It's quite ridicilous that a majority of western people are all of a sudden pro Ukraine while most didn't know where it was located in the years before. Let alone know anything of the culture, history and especially what happened from 2014 onwards."

That is an assumption, you do not know what i or others know.

Guess you're one of the very few that does not see it for what it is, it's not only on this forum that Russian people agree that Putins accusations are lies and that they're fed lies through the only state media channel allowed, and is why Putin has banned Facebook and Instagram and Twitter.

If you look a couple of pages previous to this one you will see example's of the attempts of Misinformation, with one concerning a captured Russian soldier, it was suggested that the soldier was actually a Ukrainian soldier with a link to his facebook, only upon going to the facebook it become clear that the only similarity was he had a beard but was obviously not the same man.

How can anything that has been said and backed up with evidence be called Assumptions ?

The only thing that is going to come from the War is Putin being shown that he under estimates others, this 2 day "special operation" is now over a month in, and hes taken very little ground but killed many civillians alongside the Ukrainian soldiers.

Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

@ kahn62 I think it's better not to borrow more in Napoleon.

A new world order is not necessarily something to oppose. The NWO put forward by the oligarchs, which is based on the continued strife we see everywhere now, is definately a bad thing. To see no way forward is to concede defeat, and submit to the rule of Satan voluntarily. All we need is for people to see the truth. If all you hear is the doom and gloom, then you begin to believe there is no alternative to it. We need people to simply stand up for what is right. Stand up for the truth. Simply stand up for our god given freedoms. The only power of the devil is lies. The media is ONLY reporting lies, so the truth gets ignored. YOU CANNOT FIGHT FOR PEACE. YOU CANNOT FIGHT FOR FREEDOM. These simple truths can free the world, if people hear them. Do your bit, and spread the truth to ONE other person, ONCE. If everyone spread one truth once, the lies could not prevail.
Mutually assured destruction has stopped the use of nukes so far, so what makes you believe that the people of this generation can suddenly ignore it today? There is no "point of no return", untill all life has been removed from this planet, To believe it so, is to make it so, so stop pushing the view you despise, and think of a better world. The world is depending on it, literally..
Putin is not as important in the grand scheme as you or he thinks he is. YOU are as important as ANY world leader, and to give up is a vote by you for the end of humanity.
NATO and the UN have never been agencies for good, anywhere in the world. They were set up for the sole purpose of preventing any outbreak of peace from having a chance to succede. It is inevitable that if peace did break out, that everyone at either of these workplaces would be out of work, so it is not in their interest, in any significant way, to make that happen.
What I was told before I was born, by god, can be paraphrased as "Mankind is gods perfect creation, and can be trusted to do the right thing, given free will and the knowledge of good and evil, when the time comes for it." My vote is still for team god, even though my faith is being tested by these times.
What was wrong with Napoleon? He tried, which is more than most of us can say, to free the common men of Europe. He did it in France, but he thought he could impose freedom on the stupid. They were not ready for what he offered, and punished him for trying...

Following orders without question is responsable for more evil than good. You have no superious, and you should seek no subordinates. "An" means opposed to, "arch", means king. Anarchy is not chaos, it is in fact freedom for all. We need to oppose rulers, in ALL of their guises. Democracy, is just bullying by ballot.

Quote from Kahn62 :

A new world order is not necessarily something to oppose. The NWO put forward by the oligarchs, which is based on the continued strife we see everywhere now, is definately a bad thing. To see no way forward is to concede defeat, and submit to the rule of Satan voluntarily. All we need is for people to see the truth. If all you hear is the doom and gloom, then you begin to believe there is no alternative to it. We need people to simply stand up for what is right. Stand up for the truth. Simply stand up for our god given freedoms. The only power of the devil is lies. The media is ONLY reporting lies, so the truth gets ignored. YOU CANNOT FIGHT FOR PEACE. YOU CANNOT FIGHT FOR FREEDOM. These simple truths can free the world, if people hear them. Do your bit, and spread the truth to ONE other person, ONCE. If everyone spread one truth once, the lies could not prevail.
Mutually assured destruction has stopped the use of nukes so far, so what makes you believe that the people of this generation can suddenly ignore it today? There is no "point of no return", untill all life has been removed from this planet, To believe it so, is to make it so, so stop pushing the view you despise, and think of a better world. The world is depending on it, literally..
Putin is not as important in the grand scheme as you or he thinks he is. YOU are as important as ANY world leader, and to give up is a vote by you for the end of humanity.
NATO and the UN have never been agencies for good, anywhere in the world. They were set up for the sole purpose of preventing any outbreak of peace from having a chance to succede. It is inevitable that if peace did break out, that everyone at either of these workplaces would be out of work, so it is not in their interest, in any significant way, to make that happen.
What I was told before I was born, by god, can be paraphrased as "Mankind is gods perfect creation, and can be trusted to do the right thing, given free will and the knowledge of good and evil, when the time comes for it." My vote is still for team god, even though my faith is being tested by these times.
What was wrong with Napoleon? He tried, which is more than most of us can say, to free the common men of Europe. He did it in France, but he thought he could impose freedom on the stupid. They were not ready for what he offered, and punished him for trying...

Nato is defense based, without Nato what would stop Putin attacking Poland next for example. If Ukraine had already been in Nato, then its quite likely that he wouldn't have attacked.

Its the UN that provide Peace keeping (or they're supposed to.

Quote from Kahn62 :

What was wrong with Napoleon? He tried, which is more than most of us can say, to free the common men of Europe. He did it in France, but he thought he could impose freedom on the stupid. They were not ready for what he offered, and punished him for trying...

I advise you to go back to your books. You will learn that you are very unfair to Napoleon. Napoleon did not just try. He has achieved great things in a very short time. Like causing several million deaths in Europe, restoring slavery, reigning nepotism and terror, rekindling the flame of imperialism which inspired other great men like Hitler and Putin, and which still poisons contemporary geopolitics. .. The only good deeds of Napoleon are to have ratified some of the achievements of the French Revolution, of which he has nothing to do with the foundations. For someone who has just "tried", it's already good.

I am not against the idea of a new world order. The current world order does not satisfy me. But it depends what gone replace it . The times do not lend themselves to progress. And nothing in what is happening suggests that the freedom of peoples will triumph. There is no point in speculating and please leave god, Napoleon and the devil out of it all.

We are already in the situation that I have described. It doesn't make me any happier than it does you, but here we are. The Russia/Ukraine conflict is globalized. We will escape, I hope, from a nuclear war, but the consequences will already be terrible.

Quote from SamH :

Whether engineered or not, we are in the early stages of The Great Reset. I once thought this was a conspiracy theory but it makes no difference now because we're in it. "You will own nothing, and you will be happy." Well, I'm not happy.

Conspiracy theories are reassuring in that they tell us that what is happening is intentional; of an identifiable cause, of a common enemy against which we could fight. Thus, it would suffice to open our eyes to the truth that is being hidden from us for the world to become comprehensible again.

The reality is much more tragic. No conspiracy is necessary for our annihilation. There are no strings to pull, no one at the controls, no pilot in the plane or navigation instruments. All of this would be completely useless. This is why the only button present on our dashboard can only be used to destroy everything just before the big crash. A world so resolutely consumerist cannot know any other destiny nor nourish any other ambitions.

The dominant economic ideology inherently carries the seeds of its (our) self-destruction. This ideology is objectively suicidal enough to be able to instantly transform every planetary problem (including wars) into a market opportunity and impose the most inept solutions on us in return (new nuclear power plants, American shale gas instead of Russian gas, more weapons, more military bases, more control, less freedom...) and make everything that is essential to us more and more expensive to end up dispossessing us of everything, until to make us mere tenants of our lives, indeed.

Sanctions against Russia are part of this arsenal. They are speculative and dishonest since partial and gradual so that no one loses too much money and everyone has time to look back (for example: the big French companies have still not left Russia and Germany continues to import 200,000,000 euros of Russian gas per day). The truth is that the fate of a few million civilians weighs nothing here.

Wow. It turned out into interesting discussion. Good and evil, god and satan, NWO, spys, nato, targeted people, slaves and oligarchs. I definitely have lot to say about it all... But usually people start to fight here or insult one another....)))

Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

Conspiracy theories are reassuring in that they tell us that what is happening is intentional; of an identifiable cause, of a common enemy against which we could fight. Thus, it would suffice to open our eyes to the truth that is being hidden from us for the world to become comprehensible again.

The reality is much more tragic. No conspiracy is necessary for our annihilation. There are no strings to pull, no one at the controls, no pilot in the plane or navigation instruments. All of this would be completely useless. This is why the only button present on our dashboard can only be used to destroy everything just before the big crash. A world so resolutely consumerist cannot know any other destiny nor nourish any other ambitions.

Okay, but then introduce the stated proposals and objectives of the World Economic Forum and the conspiracy theory mutates into a **spoiler alert**

Quote from Snoop.DriftEra :

I definitely have lot to say about it all... But usually people start to fight here or insult one another....)))

Attacks on ideas should be justified and qualified, but attacks on individuals should be ignored.

A 2014 article in the Guardian, not yet cleansed from the net......

"But there is an increasing worry that while the Azov and other volunteer battalions might be Ukraine's most potent and reliable force on the battlefield against the separatists, they also pose the most serious threat to the Ukrainian government, and perhaps even the state, when the conflict in the east is over. The Azov causes particular concern due to the far right, even neo-Nazi, leanings of many of its members.

Dmitry claimed not to be a Nazi, but waxed lyrical about Adolf Hitler as a military leader, and believes the Holocaust never happened. Not everyone in the Azov battalion thinks like Dmitry, but after speaking with dozens of its fighters and embedding on several missions during the past week in and around the strategic port city of Mariupol, the Guardian found many of them to have disturbing political views, and almost all to be intent on "bringing the fight to Kiev" when the war in the east is over."

"The Azov have been partially brought into the military and officially function as a special police unit. There are discussions that Azov and other battalions could be integrated into the army or special forces when the conflict is over."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis

I don't support the Russian invasion, see all my post's on the topic, but a bit of historical evidence on this topic may be helpful.

@Racer X NZ: So, for thinking of Nazis better than they deserve, and for using some symbols, should they be charged with thoughcrimes?

"Thoughtcrime is a word coined by George Orwell in his 1949 dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four. It describes a person's politically unorthodox thoughts, such as unspoken beliefs and doubts that contradict the tenets of Ingsoc (English Socialism), the dominant ideology of Oceania."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ ... 0ideology%20of%20Oceania.

I only posted a 2014 article from a left wing news source. This is called a historical source, a source people use to write history, which I posted for some context regarding the 'Asov Battalion'.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, nor do I care about how people view them today. It's just interesting to bring up historical sources, seeing how they (the Asov Battalion) were viewed, particularly by the left, in 2014.

I leave people to draw their own conclusions, from historical evidence, on this specific topic.

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” – George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905.

Quote from bishtop :

Nato is defense based, without Nato what would stop Putin attacking Poland next for example. If Ukraine had already been in Nato, then its quite likely that he wouldn't have attacked.

Its the UN that provide Peace keeping (or they're supposed to.

If by your statement that NATO is based on defence, then you are half right. NATO has never ordered an attack anywhere, but the signatory countries have. Whether the order came from the combined force, or from the individual governments in a collusion against peace, it amounts to the same thing. As for the UN that providing peace keeping, lol, surely you jest. They occupy countries that the US has bombed back to the stone age, and enforce the punishment imposed by the US. That is not keeping the peace, that's just being goalers for the defeated.

Imagine.

[quote="SamH;1996138"]Okay, but then introduce the stated proposals and objectives of the World Economic Forum and the conspiracy theory mutates into a **spoiler alert**

The World Economic Forum is a fine organization of psychopaths to dismantle... but that's another subject.

Quote from Snoop.DriftEra :

Wow. It turned out into interesting discussion. Good and evil, god and satan, NWO, spys, nato, targeted people, slaves and oligarchs. I definitely have lot to say about it all... But usually people start to fight here or insult one another....)))

And ? Are you afraid of blows?

I clearly went out of the room for a minute or 4 for a quick $!(@%# and missed the revolution....



Even Aussie's are agreeing FFS........
https://youtu.be/vwSRqaZGsPw




https://www.youtube.com/watch? ... p;ab_channel=RussellBrand

Quote from Kahn62 :

As for the UN that providing peace keeping, lol, surely you jest.

Never said or meant it as they effectively provide peace, what i meant was that peace keepers are a part of the UN

Quote from Snoop.DriftEra :

Wow. It turned out into interesting discussion. Good and evil, god and satan, NWO, spys, nato, targeted people, slaves and oligarchs. I definitely have lot to say about it all... But usually people start to fight here or insult one another....)))

We all must respect each others opinions and not argue, otherwise we're a part of a problem i guess.

While i'm against Putin on his decision of the attack, and have a lot of admiration for Ukraine, i do occasionally see things that i believe Ukraine does wrong. The most recent is a video of Ukrainian soldiers questioning captured soldiers and shooting them in the leg's.
If the video turns out to be genuine then someone should charges of war crimes, the same as Putin should face for the atrocities caused by him with the conflict.