When im racing and i pass people in a chicane (AS Club or SO Classic) people say 'you cant pass there'!!! and i always say, you can pass anywhere.

This message has appeared on karting.co.uk, which kinda proves it.

Just the other day i had someone get their nose beside my rear wheel in the last corner of SO classic and when i turned in he blamed me saying 'senna as normal' etc.

In my opinion, most LFSers dont know how to overtake, they fall into the group of 'as long as i have my nose beside the rear wheel, its MY corner' where as I, TristanCliffe, Nikimere, Kevomcenzy and Arrechee throw the car into the corner fully commited.

You might be wondering what the point of the thread is, but im wondering if anyone can make a wiki or a video on how to actually overtake, with examples of the common 'half commited brake in the same place' manuvers, and proper chuck it in moves?? Maybe LawVS can do this, hes awesome at doin stuff.

What does everyone think?

Sounds like a good plan, and a good read / demonstration. I'll wait with baited breath!

The way I see it, if you turn into a corner and will hit the driver on the inside if he/she doesnt back off, then give them the line. Just pass them back in the next corner(s). No sense in expecting them to back off because you know that 99% of the time the driver to the inside of you will not back off. Easier to give them the line even if just to make them shut up.

A video won't fix anything, the only people that will watch it are the people who already know how to pass (ironic, I know). The ones who truly need the lesson won't watch it - if they're not willing to heed your advice on the track or on the forums, they're not going to watch the video.

It'd be nice if they had to learn how to pass properly, but there is no way to force them to.

but the point is, i wouldnt turn in if i had seen them.

When i did karting years ago i ALWAYS used to crash into people, because i half commited, i didnt know HOW to overtake. In LFS I get so many people saying 'you almost hit me when u passed me' because they dont realise that that is the way to pass.
It will be intresting to hear tristans point of view on this.

Race starts is another area where people dont know. SO many people get angry when i say 'just go flying into the corner' and INSIST that braking early is the best option. I only hit people at starts if i mean to, and very rarely when i dont mean to.

Maybe a general race craft video is what is needed

What I really hate are suicide divers who think they can plow into the corner and have the right of way just because they are on the inside. I only let room if I know the other has a sizable portion of overlap before corner entry, otherwise I have no hesitation to close the door. I also often drive racing line, so they don't even have the idea/chance to dive inside, because I am already there. Of course that is slower but atleast I hold my position.

No way - if people knoew they just have to stick their noses in to win the corner then passing will be a joke. If you want to pass me you have to work for it. I'll give you a squeeze to let you know I'm there, but you ain't coming by unless you've actually won the corner. If I can see that you can back out of it, either by braking, lifting, or turning in earlier, then I'm turning in.

99% of the time it works, as people see me coming and know from prior experience with me that I don't give the corner easily. It's the 1% of headstrong (stupid?) people that think they can pass easily that cause the accidents.

Put it this way - when I race people my speed, and who know me (and I know them) then there is almost never an accident. Same when I overtake them. It's much easier and safer to back out of the failed pass and get them somewhere else. Maybe spend two, three or four corners setting up the pass by distracting them, or getting them offline. I don't often race Will anymore, as we're both a bit less active than we have/should be, but when I do the chances of a coming together are very slim, even if one of us is several seconds a lap quicker than the other at a particular combo. We race hard. We know the rules, and we know if the pass is on or not. It works that way, and the racing is extremely satisfying. If I let people go passed at the first hint of a move then racing would be boring.

I actually hate it when I'm next to someone before the Aston Club chicane.
I seem to always be the when to brake before, and lose my position, because
the one on the left takes it like he was alone, even if he was a bit behind me before the chicane. That or I go into the tyres, because they rarely leave room for both cars.

thats because u stay on the outside

It's sometimes funny entering those chicanes, when the guy on the outside thinks the person to his left has the right of way, even if he doesn't have any overlap at all, and both drivers just keep slowing down, and slowing down, waiting for the other guy to take the line.

Makes it "interesting" for the cars following them.

A video might be useful, I think there was something made along these lines, but quite a long time ago.

I notice a heck of a lot of people at starts never defend their line into T1. When I raced karts the first thing you did if you started on the outside was try get yourself into the inside line otherwise you'll be hung out to dry and most likely end up off the track or at the back of the pack. In LFS you can go from the back of the pack to the front in a full server a lot of the time because the people on the outside end up having to yield for you once you park it on the apex.

I've had people get angry with me for squeezing them into corners (I don't mean forcing them to run out of track), say they've come down the inside of me and I've come across the track to make their line as narrow as possible; in the hope that I can hold the position down the outside.

I just think a lot of people miss-understand race craft, that's the part I love about racing is thinking and trying to trick your other racer into a mistake.

I think if you threw a lot of LFSers or any sim racer for that matter into a proper kart race a lot of them would be demoralised at the race craft there.

Keiran

Quote from MAGGOT :

A video won't fix anything, the only people that will watch it are the people who already know how to pass (ironic, I know). The ones who truly need the lesson won't watch it - if they're not willing to heed your advice on the track or on the forums, they're not going to watch the video.

Lies, I am far from a good racer, but if I get something that might help me, I turn it into my bible. I found a couple of videos by tsr which have helped me get faster lap times.

Overtaking is really simple if you do it by the book. If you don't, then you will make a mess and the fault is yours.

Quote :

§ 03 - The lead car has always right to a corner. If two cars are alongside, the inside car has the right to the corner and the corner exit. Cars are not alongside until the front wheel is beside the opponents door.

§ 06 - Overtaking is the responsibility of the overtaking car. Do not make a pass unless it's safe to do so. Even if the car in front is slowing you down and even if the car in front is a lap or more behind.

These two rules is just about all you need to make a pass. If everyone could keep this in mind, we wouldn't have any overtaking problems.

Quote from keiran :

I notice a heck of a lot of people at starts never defend their line into T1. When I raced karts the first thing you did if you started on the outside was try get yourself into the inside line otherwise you'll be hung out to dry and most likely end up off the track or at the back of the pack. In LFS you can go from the back of the pack to the front in a full server a lot of the time because the people on the outside end up having to yield for you once you park it on the apex.

The problem is that in LFS people have nothing to lose by going banzai at T1. If they wreck out it's no big loss because they just teleport to the pits and start again. Because there's nothing to lose it's more difficult to get a clean T1 than real life. Everyone dives to the inside of the corner and half the cars go in too hot and drift wide. Anyone on the outside line gets pushed off into the grass or a wall. Add to this the fact that the field of view is so much narrower than real life and the fact that you're looking at a 2D screen with no true 3D information and it's a recipe for disaster. Also, it's a LOT easier to judge the size of a kart compared to the size of a (virtual) car. Just because you can get away with something in the real world doesn't mean it works the same in a sim.

Quote :

I think if you threw a lot of LFSers or any sim racer for that matter into a proper kart race a lot of them would be demoralised at the race craft there.

I think that if you had to race a car eight times the size of your cart, while wearing blinders, with one eye closed, and while being totally disconnected from any physical feeling of weight transfer, you probably wouldn't be so bold in your maneuvers.

I protest against §03. It allows the inside car to push the outside car off the road on corner exit. In a corner the inside car has the right to stay on the track as well as the outside car has the right to stay on the track on his side.

Vain

I think the inside car doesnt have the 'right' to push the outside car off, but anyone being overtaken and is sensible knows that if they stay on the outside they will crash.

If you slow down enough to take care of the fact that the person MIGHT stay on the outside, that means that they will have to look in their mirrors to see you, and that isn't a PROPER pass.

If you commit properly to overtake u will be going faster at that part of the corner than what u normally would, and u will be on a tighter line. This means that u need to use ALL of the exit to recover it.

Until you have overtaken properly and JUST make it round the corner, u won't know that u NEED all of the outside, and anyone on the outside cant be avoided.

I have many videos of people staying on the outside, and people giving the corner up and taking the faster line. And the person on the outside usually gets binned off, or looses even more places. Even in F1. VERY rarely does it work, unless its in chicanes which is fair enough.

Quote from Vain :

I protest against §03. It allows the inside car to push the outside car off the road on corner exit. In a corner the inside car has the right to stay on the track as well as the outside car has the right to stay on the track on his side.

Vain

In verbage yes, but if you fail to allow proper racing room to your opponent you will be penalized 9/10 times. Every race series will stipulate that rule.

Quote from P5YcHoM4N :

Lies, I am far from a good racer, but if I get something that might help me, I turn it into my bible. I found a couple of videos by tsr which have helped me get faster lap times.

Seems I fragmented my argument in my post :S I tend to do that.. What I was getting at is those who blame you for not racing clean when you have done the proper thing and they have not, will not watch the video. If it happens, and you jusify your case and they still argue with you on it, a video will not help. In most cases someone does it once, then is told the proper way to pass and they are fine and do it properly. They don't need a video because they listen and try to learn (those like yourself, good on you ). The problem is the stubborn people who believe they have the right of way when, in fact, they don't. A video won't change their outlook. That's what I was getting at in my post

[EDIT] @Tristan - I agree with what you're saying. As usual, I forgot to add half of my point :P I give extra room to those who think they deserve it to prevent a crash. 9 times out of 10 they only caught up because I made a mistake, and I get them a couple corners later anyways. When it is someone I know races properly, I don't give extra room, I only give them what is rightfully theirs. I think mrodgers will agree that I can make the FZR pretty wide at times

I like to follow a driver first, find his weak spot get him looking in his mirrors, and then make my move.

this thread seems like aimed on justifing the crash attitude...

it is true that many people don't know how toovertake and how be overtaken, but is also true that many "fast and famous" racers pretend to have the right to pass you and crash you no matter what...even if they are slower than you, it is quite common to find people like ayrton and tristan that pretend to pass even when they know it's 100% crash, i know very well that kind of attitude, it's the attitude that if they cannot pass me by being faster, they tap me from behind at braking and pretend that i broke too early, or if i pass they tap me the back side making me spin and again of course it's my fault...

to if someone is coming faster than me into a corner and i cannot defend cleanly, i let him pass as i should but while doing it i prepare my corner exit making his as slow as i can but being clean, so that i come out faster, i catch his slipstream and will pass him on next corner.

it's much better when i find fast guys without such "bully" attitude, it will mean close, fast races wih many passes...where of course a pass doesn't mean crash because of stubborness

my opinion? it's people like ayrton and tristan that need to take overtaking and being overtaken lessons...

PS i never raced with you guys, so i may be wrong about you but as you depict your behaviour, you have a bad attitude IMHO

Quote from Honey :

this thread seems like aimed on justifing the crash attitude...

it is true that many people don't know how toovertake and how be overtaken, but is also true that many "fast and famous" racers pretend to have the right to pass you and crash you no matter what...even if they are slower than you, it is quite common to find people like ayrton and tristan that pretend to pass even when they know it's 100% crash, i know very well that kind of attitude, it's the attitude that if they cannot pass me by being faster, they tap me from behind at braking and pretend that i broke too early, or if i pass they tap me the back side making me spin and again of course it's my fault...

to if someone is coming faster than me into a corner and i cannot defend cleanly, i let him pass as i should but while doing it i prepare my corner exit making his as slow as i can but being clean, so that i come out faster, i catch his slipstream and will pass him on next corner.

it's much better when i find fast guys without such "bully" attitude, it will mean close, fast races wih many passes...where of course a pass doesn't mean crash because of stubborness

my opinion? it's people like ayrton and tristan that need to take overtaking and being overtaken lessons...

PS i never raced with you guys, so i may be wrong about you but as you depict your behaviour, you have a bad attitude IMHO

No offence but with that sort of attitude you would get no where in real life racing. I know someone when I raced karts who was scared to end up causing an accident that he never pulled off an overtaking move in the whole 3 years I raced with him. I kept telling him to just go for it because if you never show aggression to your fellow racers they'll walk all over you. You show no aggression then the driver in front aint going to yield. One of the reasons that in LFS I make the other driving work to get past me becasue it puts more pressure on them. A lot of racing is about mind games and how you use your race craft to make the other driver slip up.

Personally I've raced Tristan and Will a lot and I very few times has it ended in a big crash. Sure we have our tangles but heck that happens in real life with more at risk. I really enjoy the aggression of racing people like Will hard because thats what it's like in real life. Not what a lot of people do in LFS which is not bother to try hold you back.

If someone's quicker than me I'll defend my position as much as is sporting and as much as the rules allow me to do.

Keiran

lol, i wondered when this would turn into a flame war.

the only time i hit anyone is 1) when i mean to and 2) when they genuinly do an unpredictable thing like braking rediculously early.

Obviously i do make mistakes occasionally, but racing most people i only crash 1 in 15 races maybe

This bully attitude u talk of isnt bullying, its being commited. As seen in the thread in karting.co.uk, its the people who DONT go into the coner silly fast and who arent 100% commited who cause the accidents.

Its pretty obvious to me that u are one of the people who dont know how to overtake i talk about.

Imagine if when Schumi was overtaken by montoya in brazil, if monty hadnt presented himself by entering the corner way too fast, schumi wouldnt have seen him and there would have been contact.

My point has just been proven by u honey

MY WHOLE POINT IS THAT THE PEOPLE WHO THINK THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO PASS WHO CAUSE THE ACCIDENTS. DID YOU NOT SEE THE KARTING.CO.UK THREAD? ME AND TRISTAN MAKE IT SO THAT THE DRIVERS HAVE NO CHOICE BUT NOT TO TURN IN, RATHER THAN DECIDE NOT TO TURN IN AS TO NOT CAUSE AN ACCIDENT.

If someone tries to make a move when I've got the door shut and he's nowhere near halfway along side my car and he hits me, then I will be pretty annoyed.. I only pass in chicanes etc when I'm over halfway past someones car on the inside..

Seems to have worked so far

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

...
and 2) when they genuinly do an unpredictable thing like braking rediculously early.
...

I do agree with our general idea, but i think this point is where, sometimes, more attention is needed.

When i race with someone i know (or when i race in a League) i can follow VERY close and i'd rarely (if never) crash into someone braking unpredictably early...
...but if i'm in a public server and i find myself behind someone i've never seen racing before, i'll take my time (and space from) to see how he/she drives.
Public server have pilots of all experieces and abilities.
It's simply too dangerous for both to assume that the one i'm following (or overtaking) will take the correct and fastet line or brake at the "normal" braking points...

my 2c

Quote from keiran :

No offence but with that sort of attitude you would get no where in real life racing. I know someone when I raced karts who was scared to end up causing an accident that he never pulled off an overtaking move in the whole 3 years I raced with him. I kept telling him to just go for it because if you never show aggression to your fellow racers they'll walk all over you. You show no aggression then the driver in front aint going to yield. One of the reasons that in LFS I make the other driving work to get past me becasue it puts more pressure on them. A lot of racing is about mind games and how you use your race craft to make the other driver slip up.

Personally I've raced Tristan and Will a lot and I very few times has it ended in a big crash. Sure we have our tangles but heck that happens in real life with more at risk. I really enjoy the aggression of racing people like Will hard because thats what it's like in real life. Not what a lot of people do in LFS which is not bother to try hold you back.

If someone's quicker than me I'll defend my position as much as is sporting and as much as the rules allow me to do.

Keiran

and i agree with that, but from all the posts that "justify" being "hard" it just reminds to me of too many fast guys that actually don't know how to race, i'm not telling not to dare or not to "close" the lines,, it happened to me to make a pas at full throttle at the fe green chicane (with mrt), just in the middle of the chicane, but it was safe to do so and not even a little touch! ...but most times i don't do it because 99% it's crash for sure!

saying "everywere is possible to pass" and " i close the line if i know he can break" is to me crash attitude, while the first sentence is right in principle, is also right that a smart guy knows that attempting a pass at certain corners in normal conditions, means crash!

if i pass at the inside and i'm entering corner faster, i will pass! because only a silly or a wrecker (IMO) will close no matter what just because i have still braking room, if i will find a guy with such bully attitude and he close no matter what, i will pass no matter what...that means 100% crash, so will make to let him end badly and me as less as possible, because if i do properly i pretend to pass! it's too easy to justify the silly attitude "i close no matter what" just by claiming to be a "hard to pass driver" to me is just a wrecker...