Is it possible for people who do not use FF wheels to critique the physics in race sims? I use FF and I use what I feel through the wheel coupled with knowledge of the way in which the FF effects are produced to decide whether a sim has got it right, or as right as possible. LFS is one of those sims.

Just wondering if people running no FF can tell a crappy sim from a good one. I feel that if a game feels like crap in the FF dept, then it's physics engine is most likely crap too. What do you guys think?

people without FF arent playing LFS.

I think they are. I've seen FF mice but that wouldn't comapare to a wheel. And I dont think FF keyboards exist and I know lots of people use those around here.

I would say that's an emphatic no. I just went for a couple laps around AS historic in the LX6 with the FF turned off on my DFP, it feels totally different. I'm so used to being able to tell how much grip I have front and rear through the FF, that it's really weird not having it. Also, the behavior in slides and spins is totally different. When you spin with FF on, the sim tells the wheel it should be slamming lock to lock, and it's your job to try and hold the wheel the way you want. With FF off, the wheel should still be trying to turn, but to the physics model, it's as if an infinitely strong person is holding the wheel straight ahead, it makes things look pretty odd. I also find it very hard to hold out slides when I really have no idea what the car is doing.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

My first wheel had dicky FF, it would cut out all the time and when it did it was really hard to drive. I think once you're familiar with it, FF is a great benefit.

That said, I think people can judge whether the physics are any good without using force-feedback, because there are so many other ways to witness the physics in action (the view (esp. "forces" view), engine and tyre sounds, RAF output, etc.).

True I guess, but alot of sims dont have the same visual feedback as lfs does.

On the other hand, last time I had my wife try and play a sim with FF, she asked me if I couldn't turn off the feature that's moving the wheel for her :-)

FF is definitely required IMHO.

I terms of "Driving feeling" this is very helpful to judge, but as pointed out I guess apart from driving, there other ways to judge based on replays, output data etc.

I remember when I first showed my father a replay in LFS, he was astounded.

FF has so many advantages, such as knowing that you locked up the fronts because the steering becomes light. You can feel when you're about to break traction, you can even feel when you have damage because the wheel pulls.

Without it LFS just feels... fake. You get no feeling of the car.

if you spin this kind of argument further you could also claim that non dfpers are not qualified to critisize the physics (especially when it comes to drifting being too easy)

I'm going to say, yes you can. My first wheel 10 years ago was a Thrustmaster T2 with the bungee cord centering. I played original NFS, some rally game (featuring Subaru), and some others. I quickly found Indycar Racing 2, which I believe to be the first "real" racing sim along with the start of the Nascar series. I immediately noticed in both ICR2 and Nascar Racing that they were the simulators. I used that T2 up through 2005 and through several of the NFS to Porsche Unleashed and Papyrus series through NR2003. Papyrus was definately the clear winner on simulation through all of that and I could tell with my non-FF T2. I was introduced to forcefeedback in Nascar Racing 2002 when I bought my Momo in the beginning of 2005. I was never able to play rFactor, GTR series and never heard of RBR or LFS until after I got the Momo.

If you've never had forcefeedback, you don't know what you're missing so you judge it all on everything else. I had thought force feedback was just a gimic until I picked up the Momo.

If you have FF, and went back to non-FF, I'd say because you are use to FF, you would have a harder time judging.

Quote from Shotglass :

if you spin this kind of argument further you could also claim that non dfpers are not qualified to critisize the physics (especially when it comes to drifting being too easy)

I could see what you mean with drifting maybe.

But with regular racing, the steer reduction at 100% (which really is where it should be for true feedback!) makes it feel identical to a DFP the vast majority of the time, where your wheel is not far from centre.

Quote from joeynuggetz :

Just wondering if people running no FF can tell a crappy sim from a good one.

Yes.

I current use MOMO wheel with LFS - is there much difference between it and the DFP? I'm thinking of waiting out the new G25 , but wondering if I should get a DFP while waiting. If the MOMO is OK, are there recommended settings (FF force, steer-reduction, etc.)?

Believe it or not, I've always been playing LFS without FF. I could hardly imagine turning FF on because you'd have to work harder to turn the wheel and so your reaction time increases.
Personally, I really don't need the feedback through the wheel as I get most of my feeling for the car from the sound. Without sound, I could hardly drive at all (tried it before). I think the implementation of sound in LFS is quite generous in terms of feedback because the tire scrubbing sound gives you a very clear indication of when you're just about to exceed the limit of cohesion.

I think we can (yes i use mouse) judge if the game is "real" or not, but we have to have some good experience in the game to start juding it. Things like when you turning, how the slide goes, braking,acc, i can "feel" the car, but in a different way, i know when i got a locked wheel, or the tail is about to loose, but i at least needed a good few months to start to "feel" the car. I might be wrong, but that how worked with me, i have raced in IRL with karts, and some small openwheelers, around 100hp, with slicks, im not pro-driver, but once in a while i pay to just do a spin on those cars..if you know what i mean..

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

I could see what you mean with drifting maybe.

But with regular racing, the steer reduction at 100% (which really is where it should be for true feedback!) makes it feel identical to a DFP the vast majority of the time, where your wheel is not far from centre.

still turning the wheel fast to correct a slide with a 180 or 270 wheel is a lot easier than it is with a dfp (albeit doing it with a dfp is a bit harder than it is irl with the wheel limiting the speed at which you can turn it)

Quote from biggie :

Believe it or not, I've always been playing LFS without FF. I could hardly imagine turning FF on because you'd have to work harder to turn the wheel and so your reaction time increases.
Personally, I really don't need the feedback through the wheel as I get most of my feeling for the car from the sound. Without sound, I could hardly drive at all (tried it before). I think the implementation of sound in LFS is quite generous in terms of feedback because the tire scrubbing sound gives you a very clear indication of when you're just about to exceed the limit of cohesion.

Totally agree. Not that I come even close to your laptimes, but I don't use FFB ever since but I once tried and I found that it sucked - at least for me of course.

Even a totally loose wheel is hard to turn quickly because of the resistance of the motor which is NEVER as fast as I could turn the wheel. And furthermore all that funny rattling in the wheel distracted me more than giving me any advanced feeling.

I still use my old MS Sidewinder Precision which has no FFB. The wheel I once tried was a Logitech Formula Force GP - I sold it the day after I got it. The feeling just was not realistic at all and for me it's better to have no FFB at all than to have some unrealistic effects.

As some of you know I am someone who criticizes weak points of LFS physics often. See physics thread at the moment for example.

I play a lot of sims and I have more than 1 wheel. But my main wheel is Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback.

BUT I always play LFS and all the other sims without force feedback. I tried it and I don't like it:

- it is highly artificial in comparison if you drive real cars at the limit sometimes. The force feedback just from the wheel in a real car is far superior to the artificial PC force feedback of any simulation

- it's harder work for long races. I think it could lead to mistakes in an 1 hour game

- your reaction times are faster without it ... see above

- and like Walther Röhrl, a famous german driver, said. If you feel it with your "popometer" or in this case through the FF, it is already to late. You did already a mistake and it costs time. You have to THINK and KNOW what will happen, if you want to be a real good driver.
So FF helps the weak in some way It makes it easier to correct mistakes and avoiding to spin out.

_____________________________

FF helps in some way. But where is the connection with physics itself? Why not judging reactions of the car itself? FF is another chapter ...

Walther Röhrl : "Das Popometer reagiert viel zu spät, was passiert muß schon vorher klar sein."

I don't use FF either very often, even though I've got the red Momo. I just use the self centering most of the time. I can feel what the car is doing purely visually and often forget in our physics discussions that a lot of (most?) people are using FF, which has the potential of confusing what's happening.

In any sim, not just LFS, the FF quality can really change the impression of what's happening. You could have a perfect tire and physics model and all that, but if the FF isn't up to par or done properly or lags or anything like that, people will think the physics model is somehow wrong because the car doesn't feel right. So you'd get the FF guys saying the sim stinks while the non-FF guys that go purely visually and/or with sound cues saying it feels very much like the real thing.

RC racers frequently talk about how the car "feels" even though they have no FF at all and are of course not sitting in the car. They're 50 feet away on top of a driver's stand but can feel when the car gets loose or is pushing and so on, and will come in to make tiny setup changes to improve the handling. Purely visual and of course absolutely realistic since, well, it's real

Having never used a wheel i dont know if could get used to on let alone FF, been using a gamepad (thrustmaster dual ana) for so long it would feel wierd not to have the precsion you get used to using very small inputs with your thumbs..

i,m a lazy bastard tbh i couldnt be stufffed setting up a wheel everytime i wanted a game ...

Yeah, I know what you mean. For a long time I was a joystick driver and did rather well with that. Once I switched to a wheel I lost a lot of time, but eventually got faster than I was before. With a joystick it's a bit tricky to keep the steering in one spot while adjusting throttle/brake. Much easier with a wheel of course, so eventually I got quicker that way.

I played LFS quite a bit in Holland using an RC radio hooked up to our USB adaptor since the Serpent engineer I was staying with didn't have a place to hook up his wheel. It was hard at first, especially since I had to use automatic shifting, but after a couple of weeks was still running pretty quick.

All just a matter of adjustment I think. You could drive your current times with a trackball or VR glove probably given enough practice

I like FF just because it makes my wheel heavy, without it I find the wheel too twitchy, I might turn it off every now and then if I'm driving with one hand, but other then that, I just like the risistance the motor has.

I always drive with FF at 115% Even though it's not perfect it will give you good information that you can use to make yourself faster.

As for turning FF off you may be able to have slightly better reaction times, but the FF gives you another input you can use to adjust the car.

I am finding this odd.... there are people saying that they want realism in LFS but refuse to use FF because their arms hurt after driving, and or, are lazy?illepall What happened to everyone wanting LFS to have complete realism? It may not be perfect but it's fairly good. Adjust your FF settings, that will help. My wheel gets light under power sliding, chatters when I am braking on the brake points where the track is rough, pulls when I lock one tire up, I could keep going but you get the idea. Most of the basics are there, it's just figuring out how it feels, just like driving a car thats new to you.
Part of the problem with the FF I think is that the tracks are too smooth with no imperfections in the track that gives you little tugs in the wheel. There are some, but not as many as I feel there could be.

To bad that the feeling of "understeer" is not programmed into the effects.

Quote from steve :

To bad that the feeling of "understeer" is not programmed into the effects.

There is a dead feeling, thats about it, but when I understeer with my car thats about how it feels anways. But your right, this could be worked on I feel.

A few weeks back I didn't notice I had no FF because I had accidentally disconnected my wheel PSU. I played for around 30 minutes until I realised the reason for that somewhat "iffy" steering feel.