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Quote from Shotglass :for the most part they did ... if you cant see that the few times they switched up their system and went on the offensive with the support of a few defenders is what separates them from teams like sweden or england which are completely stuck with one tactical system unable to break out of it and surprise their opponents
all of that doesnt change the fact that for most of those initial 90 minutes there were 8 defenders completely shutting off the italian half

mmm... i think that i have understood what do you mean (and that's not catenaccio):

|___2______6____|
|__3 ________7__|______11
|_______________|__10
|__4________8___|
|___5_______9___|---> move up during offensive actions
<--- moving down during defensive actions

If with the term "catenaccio" u mean that movement, then yes, it has been done, but that's not catenaccio at all.

At max u can define it as a sort of continue changing between 4 - 4 - 1 - 1 in when defending to 1 - 3 - 4 - 2 when attacking (in a much fluid way imho)

Take a look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catenaccio


Catenaccio today

Nowadays, catenaccio is used mainly by weaker teams, in order to reduce any technical gap against stronger ones by showing a more physical approach to football. The slow disappearance of the role of sweepers in modern football has also contributed to the decline in its use.
The catenaccio system is often criticized for reducing the quality of football games as a spectacle. In certain parts of Europe it became synonymous with negative football since the attacking aspect of the game is neglected.
One frequent mistake is to define catenaccio as any defensive tactical system used by a football team. This is actually untrue, because catenaccio is just one of the possible defensive tactics to be used. Nowadays catenaccio is used less and less by top teams, and often limited solely to particular circumstances, such as numerical inferiority following a sending off, or needing to defend a marginal scoreline until the end of the match. Thus, today catenaccio is also frequently referred to as any extremely defensive mental approach to a football match by a team.
Catenaccio is often thought to be commonplace in Italian football, however, it is actually used infrequently by Italian Serie A teams, which instead prefer to apply some other, more modern, tactical systems, like 4-4-2 and others. This does not apply to the Italian national football team, however. Italy's previous coaches, Cesare Maldini and Giovanni Trapattoni, used the catenaccio at international heights, and have all failed to reach the top. Italy, under Maldini, lost on penalties at the 1998 FIFA World Cup while Trapattoni lost early in the second round at 2002 FIFA World Cup and disappointingly lost at the 2004 European Football Championship during the first round.
When Italy was reduced to 10 men in the fiftieth minute of the 2006 FIFA World Cup round of 16 match against Australia after dominating the first half, coach Marcello Lippi changed the Azzurri's formation to grind out a 1-0 result which caused the Guardian to note that "the timidity of Italy's approach had made it seem that Helenio Herrera, the high priest of catenaccio, had taken possession of the soul of Marcello Lippi"[1]. Note, however, that the 10 men team was playing with a 4-3-2 scheme, just a midfielder away form the regular 4-4-2.



Imho that explain all.

And however, whatever tactics Italy used, it has been surely more effective then germany ones, because they wins, not germany.
congratulation italy!
you deserved to win, no doubt.
great and thrilling match!
it was fair and entertaining.

im glad, not to have a penalty shootout again.

Quote from Shotglass :
i was talking about the first 90 minutes ... towards the end and during the et lippis genious idea of breaking up the catenaccio and gradually change the system to an incredibly effective 6-0-4 was the reason for our loss

8-1-1 ... 6-0-4...

lol, during ETs attackers was 3 not 4: Del Piero, Iaquinta and Gilardino.
Totti remained as 3/4er
Pirlo continued to stay in the centerfield, Gattuso is always at the right time everywhere, Zambrotta between centerfield and 3/4

I continue to think that u have seen another match lol


Quote :
it was an 8-1-1 with totti playing as a libero not as a striker
calling it a 4-4-2 is completely ignoring the fact that the first line of 4 was usually placed within the 16m and the second line directly in front of them ... thats 2 defensive lines not one defensive and one midfield

Totti playing as libero? o_O?
looool

Take a look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F ... ccer%29_positions#Sweeper


Sweeper

The sweeper is a more versatile type of centre back that "sweeps up" the ball if the opponent manages to breach the defensive line. Their position is rather more fluid than other defenders who mark their designated opponents. Because of this, the position is often referred to as libero (Italian: free). The sweeper's ability to read the game is even more vital than for a centre-back. A sweeper is sometimes expected to build counter-attacking moves, and as such requires better ball control and passing ability than a typical centre back. However, sweepers are often merely defensive players. For example, the catenaccio system of play, used in Italian football in the 1960s, employed a purely defensive sweeper.
Many centre-backs and sweepers have the ability to bring the ball out of defence and begin counter-attacks for their own teams, thanks to excellent tactical (game reading, anticipation, positioning, tackling) and technical capabilities (passing, vision on the pitch); players with such an ability include the legendaries Franz Beckenbauer or Gaetano Scirea and more recently players like Ronald Koeman, Lothar Matthaus Franco Baresi. Rafael Marquez also plays in a similar fashion.



The sweeper (letteralmente sarebbe "spazzatore" in Italiano, cmq vuol dire "libero") play in the REAR of the defense line, NOT IN FRONT of the centerfield line!!!
Totti was in front of the centerfield line!

Like i said before, u have seen another match... xD

That's where Totti played:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F ... tions#Deep-lying_forwards

Deep-lying forwards

Deep-lying forwards have a long history in the game, but the terminology to describe them has varied over the years. Originally such players were termed inside forwards, or deep-lying centre forwards. More recently, the preferred terms have been "withdrawn striker", or playing "in the hole" (i.e., the space between the midfield and defence of the opposing team). The position itself was popularized in Italian football as the Trequartista - 'three-quarters' - the playmaker who plays neither in midfield nor as a forward, but effectively pulls the strings for his team's attack.

Whatever the terminology, the position itself is a loosely-defined one somewhere between the out-and-out striker and the midfield. Such a player is either a skilful, attack-minded midfielder or a striker who can both score and create opportunities for centre forwards. Widely-known deep-lying forwards include Pelé, Diego Maradona and Dennis Bergkamp.

lets just take the main point from that wiki article for explaination
Quote :it means a highly organized and effective backline defense which is intended to prevent goal

which is certainly what italy did yesterday

as ive said its not the most classical form of catenaccio ... its a mixed up form which doesnt rely solely on counterattacks but rather on fast changes in the whole tactical system of the team
but the genral idea of putting as many players as possible into the own penalty zone to prevent a goal by all means is still very much present in italys football ... in essence it catenaccio take to the 21st century

and you cant deny the catenaccio heritage of the italian team with most players already having competed in the 2002 and 2004 championships

the main aim of italys tactics has allways been to prevent goals rather than to shoot them ... and to me and most german football comentators this is what catenaccio is all about

Quote from SpaceMarineITA :lol, during ETs attackers was 3 not 4: Del Piero, Iaquinta and Gilardino.
Totti remained as 3/4er
Pirlo continued to stay in the centerfield, Gattuso is always at the right time everywhere, Zambrotta between centerfield and 3/4

totti played a lot more offensive during the et and was almost in the role of a striker ... bot teams completely gave up on any midfield play during those last 30 minutes

Quote :The sweeper (letteralmente sarebbe "spazzatore" in Italiano, cmq vuol dire "libero") play in the REAR of the defense line, NOT IN FRONT of the centerfield line!!!
Totti was in front of the centerfield line!

maybe in the itialian and english sense of the word ... im talking the german sense of the word where the libero usually is much more of a not position bound midfielder which is exactly what totti did
Hmmm......wonder how busy Rome is going to be on Sunday night, I fly out there on Saturday LMAO.

Dan,
Quote from Shotglass :lets just take the main point from that wiki article for explaination

which is certainly what italy did yesterday

as ive said its not the most classical form of catenaccio ... its a mixed up form which doesnt rely solely on counterattacks but rather on fast changes in the whole tactical system of the team
but the genral idea of putting as many players as possible into the own penalty zone to prevent a goal by all means is still very much present in italys football ... in essence it catenaccio take to the 21st century

So for u catenaccio is any soccer tattics, because any teamplayer with a little of brain when have 8 enemy guys in their midfield run to defend their zone.


Quote :
and you cant deny the catenaccio heritage of the italian team with most players already having competed in the 2002 and 2004 championships

We are not on 2002 and 2004. We played very bad in both 02 and 04.
The last Italy team that could be called in that way, before the one of this year, is the one of Euro 2000 where the CT was Dino Zoff, that never used any form of catenaccio (infact we arrived second, and second only for a damn lucky shot made by Treseguet... )
And however now, here, we are speaking of 2006 Italian team, not 02 or 04 Italian Team.
And on Fifa World Cup 2006 Italian Team just qualified for playing finals.
Surely not using catenaccio.

Quote :
the main aim of italys tactics has allways been to prevent goals rather than to shoot them ... and to me and most german football comentators this is what catenaccio is all about

From FIFA official stats, taken from an Italian magazine...

Shots aimed at the goal:

Germany: 2
Italy: 10

mmm...





Quote :
maybe in the itialian and english sense of the word ... im talking the german sense of the word where the libero usually is much more of a not position bound midfielder which is exactly what totti did

This is an international term, then use the international meaning of the term, i don't know german, is nonsense to speak in that way.
Quote from danowat :Hmmm......wonder how busy Rome is going to be on Sunday night, I fly out there on Saturday LMAO.

Dan,

Seems a bit crazy to came here the day before the world cup final match lol

Good luck
Quote from SpaceMarineITA :Seems a bit crazy to came here the day before the world cup final match lol

Good luck

Maybe so, but it was booked before I realised that Italy might get into the final , too late now LOL.

Dan,
Quote from danowat :Maybe so, but it was booked before I realised that Italy might get into the final , too late now LOL.

Dan,

No problem, if u come here with an Italian shirt "azzurra" u will survive
Some official statistics:
2 Shots on Goal 10
13 Shots 15
21 Fouls 19
4 Corner Kicks 12
1 Free Kicks 1
2 Offsides 11
0 Own Goals 0
2 Yellow Cards 1
0 Red Cards 0
43% Ball Possession 57%

Interesting...
Forza squadra italiana!

My fellow Italians watched the match in a caffe, here it started at 2:00 at night, and they celebrated it till 6 in the morning.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/a ... /0,,28806-2258469,00.html

The Times gave Ronaldo a good kicking on its front page today, whilst using the a couple of the inside pages to suggest that coverage of future footballing tournaments should have more fact/analysis and less jingoistic flag waving/bias. Mind you the articles are written by two different columnists and I've no doubt the Times would say it's not irony it's journalistic balance or some other such waffle.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/a ... /0,,28749-2257985,00.html

That's the other article just in case you're interested...

Anyway, the matter in question is the final, I'm going to go with France by a narrow margin I think. One thing I do know is that it should be one hell of a game and one to really look forward to.
I'm afraid it will be quite boring from a playmaking standpoint but still the tension will be up to the tips of our hair.
I'm too afraid we've already seen the best match in this World cup. I hope to be wrong.
I expect much from Germany vs. Portugal on Saturday. I mean, theres not THAT much to gain in that game, so the teams maybe risk a little more and I think, the Germans want to show something more in their last match. I expect and hope, that this match will be in the top 3 matches of this WC at the end. TBH, there were no really great games from an entertaining point of view (with many shots on goal and goals), only many good ones concerning tactics, that also lived from the big tension.

Best matches IMO were Ivory Coast vs. Argentina and Ghana vs. Czech Republic.
3mal Currywurst Schweinsteiger, please
With 1 small baguette Petit.
#318 - AJS
so..ummm... is France going to be the world champion ? ^_^
#320 - AJS
Remélem ...
@ajs
:ices_rofl I hope so too ^^
allez les bleus

dont think they stand much of a chance though :/
Quote from MataGyula :so..ummm... is France going to be the world champion ? ^_^

Lets hope so. I dont want a cheating World Champion!

And especially Zidane really deserves it to become world champion in his last match for France. IMO, hes the only one of the so called "great" players, who was really great in this WC.

Look at Figo, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Beckham and especially Portugal's Ronaldo. illepall
Crossing my fingers
ITALY WORLD CHAMPION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CAMPIONI DEL MONDO CAMPIONI DEL MONDO CAMPIONI DEL MONDO

World cup starts today
(386 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG