Ive seen alot of discussion about evening out the tbo class, the gtr class etc and i was just thinking -

If they are evened will have a field of different cars - possibly with different advantages (a car is faster but uses fuel quicker for example)

If they are evened out then people may only learn to drive half the cars as they will drive the easier one and not try harder cars (eg if FXR was as quick as FZR then why drive the FZR when more chance of making a mistake)

What is the view of the forum - Should they be evened out or not. Discuss.

...but if the FXR was as fast as the FZR and easier to drive, who would drive the FZR?

Quote from Greboth :

if FXR was as quick as FZR then why drive the FZR when more chance of making a mistake)

Quote from Batterypark :

...but if the FXR was as fast as the FZR and easier to drive, who would drive the FZR?

I said that in first post.

just let "reality" decide the pro's and con's about cars...
If it's simulated "real" enough then there's no point in complaining if one or more cars need extra weight/power to be more competative.

imho i think the GTR class is fairly even, its just not obvious, the FXR is always slightly sluggish as its easier to drive, the FZR is always fastest as its hardest on both driver, tyres and fuel, and the XRR trails slightly behind the FZR, but can run longer on tyres and fuel

Greboth,

Your post really made me think(omg! i thought?). I still think they GTR and tbo classes can be evened out a little more.

I wouldn't want figures being messed around with just to even out classes.

I want realism and if that means that they aren't equal so be it.

Yeah, and they'll never really be perfectly evened out anyway. Some cars would still be faster on certain tracks. Like the gti/gt on blackwood, they're really close right now on blackwood, but when you go to a track with more corners the gti becomes much quicker, since it's fwd and can go into corners harder. But I do think the fxo should be slowed down a bit, it's annoying having the fxo as the obvious choice by everyone to be easily quickest, whenever there's a tbo race.

I say no.

If you have a racing class, then there should always be a car with it's pros and cons, like (from what I hear) the FXR being the easiest on driver, fuel and tyres, the FZR on the opposite of those two extremes, and XRR somewhere in the middle of these two. What's the point in having cars within a single class even if they all just perform the same?

It should simply be that the fastest car in its class should be the most difficult one to drive. Now we have an FXO that's unspinnable but fastest and FZR that walks over the other GTRs when XRR is nerfed with slooooooooooooooooooo...









...ooooooooooow turbo and FXR that's too heavy.

I think the GTR class is fine. Turbo class however isn't. The FXO is definately the fastest with the least attempt to drive fast, while RB4 is the slowest but XRT the most rewarding. Of course the track matters a lot, but I think the specs of the turbo class cars could be a bit more fine tuned.

RB4 and XRT are perfectly fine. The RB4 is very consistant and great on twisty tracks, while the XRT often looses time because of small errors, but gains time because of it's superior power to weight ratio. Those two cars are well balanced.
The FXO however has the lowest weight by far and even has the biggest tyres and a very forgiving drivetrain-layout, making it the king of the class by far. This car needs about 60kg more weight and smaller tyres.

Vain

Quote from Matrixi :

I think the GTR class is fine.

I'd say GTR class is fine, if i was an FZR-enthusiast too! (Checked your LFSWorld stats...)

Quote from spankmeyer :

I'd say GTR class is fine, if i was an FZR-enthusiast too! (Checked your LFSWorld stats...)

The differences in the GTR class have been discussed in this forum several times. Each car has their own good and bad points. XRR has the best fuel economy and pretty good stability (best for long races), FZR has the best corner exit acceleration (but the worst fuel economy) and FXR is the easiest of the bunch due to the stability the 4wd brings.

By the way, there is an interesting rally class, I didn't notice it before: RB4 and FZ5. Their times are very close. Needless to explain their differences.

Quote from Matrixi :

The differences in the GTR class have been discussed in this forum several times. Each car has their own good and bad points. XRR has the best fuel economy and pretty good stability (best for long races), FZR has the best corner exit acceleration (but the worst fuel economy) and FXR is the easiest of the bunch due to the stability the 4wd brings.

Good points, but in reality (virtual reality ehhh) it doesn't go like that. What we have now is total FZR superiority in any race from sprint to endu. It just isn't really fair that in order to be competitive in XRR/FXR you'd have to plow WR times in order to keep up with an average FZR driver.

Quote from spankmeyer :

Good points, but in reality (virtual reality ehhh) it doesn't go like that. What we have now is total FZR superiority in any race from sprint to endu. It just isn't really fair that in order to be competitive in XRR/FXR you'd have to plow WR times in order to keep up with an average FZR driver.

I agree with you the GTR class is nowhere near even. Ive seen people drive the FXR then be 1 second + quicker in the FZR. Also the FZR as you said is quicker over every race type.

Im undecided on whether they shoulod be evened out. It would be good to have a mixed field where all are competitive but as said in first post, no one would drive FZR as wouldnt be worth trouble.

Quote from www.liveforspeed.net :

The FXO GTR is a great car for somebody just getting used to the extra power offered by the GTR cars or for somebody who just wants to have some fun in the GTR class, but if you want wins and don't like long races you have to move to one of the rear-wheel drive GTR cars.

Quote from www.liveforspeed.net :

FZ50 GTR

This is what happens when a not-so-sane person looks at the FZ50 and says "Mmm, nice, but could do with a bit more power." 130bhp more to be exact. Like the XR GTR, it was given slicks, downforce, gorgeous looks and lightened, but just ended up better.

I am afraid that the current state of the GTR class is this way by design, and was never planned differently.

Vain

Ahh, this must be one of the oldest debates in LFS. I must admit i prefer
having more balanced classes but where each car has it's strenght and
weeknesses. FWD could be faster on the stretch, but slower out of
corners for example. I prefer using a RWD car and right now that means
losing time and time again. The only way i could beat an FXO is against
very incompetent/inexperienced racers. That's not much fun either. I don't
mind the FWD gaining advantage on rallyX tracks, but to dominate on
tarmac against 'proper' RWDs is disturbing and sometimes frustrating.

As for the GTR class, i haven't raced it enough lately to know if the FZR
really has a big advantage.

Quote from Matrixi :

The differences in the GTR class have been discussed in this forum several times. Each car has their own good and bad points. XRR has the best fuel economy and pretty good stability (best for long races), FZR has the best corner exit acceleration (but the worst fuel economy) and FXR is the easiest of the bunch due to the stability the 4wd brings.

if u look results of 24h kyoto u cant say that the GTR class = balanced

now, the br league will start a GTR champ, if u say to me: "take FXR, its easy to drive, u can win", ill laugh

even with the XRR, if u will race against good pilots, its just IMPOSSIBLE race with the XRR and try to win

the same goes to tbo class

Of course they're not entirely balanced. My point being was that there is a situation for each car where it will do better than the other. I've had wonderful races in FZR against XRR drivers, then again I'm not the fastest driver there is with the GTR:s

FXR is easy to drive (tho I hate it), therefore people new to the GTR class should try it before going spinning in T1 causing pileups with the XRR (or FZR). Fonnybone said very well that cars should be more balanced, but being better than eachother at different things. Currently the XRT and the RB4 beat the FXO hands down at acceleration, but the FXO beats the XRT at braking and cornering speed.

I think the game is quite balanced, just needs a few little tweaks.

Nothing needs to be changed. All we need is an LX4 rival.

The cars could be tweaked a bit. I suspect once the turbo lag issue gets sorted out the XRR/FXR will catch up the FZRs a bit anyway.

Quote from Matrixi :

Of course they're not entirely balanced. My point being was that there is a situation for each car where it will do better than the other. I've had wonderful races in FZR against XRR drivers, then again I'm not the fastest driver there is with the GTR:s

FXR is easy to drive (tho I hate it), therefore people new to the GTR class should try it before going spinning in T1 causing pileups with the XRR (or FZR). Fonnybone said very well that cars should be more balanced, but being better than eachother at different things. Currently the XRT and the RB4 beat the FXO hands down at acceleration, but the FXO beats the XRT at braking and cornering speed.

I think the game is quite balanced, just needs a few little tweaks.

haha!

man, ur kidding? u dont know the tbo class? u already run these cars? looks like u never drive this class

FXO is a LOT faster on 90% of the tracks, the others 10% is just faster. Really, u are crazy

there are tracks that FXO is like 3s faster... and ye, it works for endu..

again, the TBO class on a champ if u wanna win, u MUST choose FXO, except if the league, like bra, arg or french league, adds a passanger on the FXO, and with this u had a chance

w/o passanger, a BAD racer can beat BY FAR a GREAT pilot with XRT or RB4! And there are no questions about this, its just the true

if u look on WR charts u will see: FXO WR = faster on ALL TRACKS

Quote from Matrixi :

The FXO is definately the fastest with the least attempt to drive fast

Missed this Mr. Carlos?

Quit putting words in my mouth please. I never said FXO wouldn't be the fastest, I know it is and I used to always use it when I raced the turbo class, then I started wanting some challenge and started using the RB4. I really don't see your point, I only noted where the cars are better than eachother.

Quote from Carlos H Wrobel :

if u wanna win, u MUST choose FXO

Utter BS. I raced in a RB4 winning several FXO drivers yesterday. You don't HAVE TO pick FXO if you're up against drivers who can't bring out the full potential of the car, but yet again this depends on the track. FXO will win the RB4 by sheer top speed if the track is long enough.

I really can't see the point of your posts, seriously.