Quote from Hoellsen :

Col: you are saying balancing should be done for real only when the physics are done. They won't be done until S3, so you are also saying no balancing until then.

No I am not - please re-read my post (again). There is no mention of S3 anywhere !

I suggested that it is very unlikely that any changes in the cars will be released at least until the next public physics update. I also suggested that Scawen may decide to wait longer than that. I certainly did not mention S3 anywhere.
I also said that there might be no further car balancing until after S2 is released (exact words were: "possibly not even in S2 full release !"). I have no clue how you manage to twist that to mean 'col doesn't want balancing until S3 final is released in 3 or 4 years time'. Particularly as I made no suggestion that I think things 'should' be that way, just that they might be.

Well, if you are saying "(maybe) after s2 final", what is there other than S3?

Quote from Hoellsen :

Well, if you are saying "(maybe) after s2 final", what is there other than S3?

I'll have to assume you are new to LFS.

LFS is a work in progress, each full version is preceded by a series of public alpha releases. So although the final S3 release may be as much as 3 or 4 years away, the first S3 alpha release could be as early as a year after S2 final possibly even sooner, no-one knows for sure.

So, IF Scawen decides that he doesn't want to make 'car balancing' changes before or in the S2 final release, we would probably have to wait at least 12 months very probably more, until the first S3 alpha.

This is a reason to support the inclusion of a Ballast feature which would not have an effect on the hotlaps, replays or on any existing leagues etc., LFS World would not be reset, so it could be released as soon as it's working - if it became a priority then some time in the next few months would be possible.

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I'll have to assume you are new to LFS.

You might wanna check LFS' credits.

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until the first S3 alpha.

Don't take it for granted we're getting a S3 alpha only because we have a S2 alpha.

Quote from Hoellsen :

You might wanna check LFS' credits.

Ah so you are a beta tester... So why didn't you beta testers report that the cars were unbalanced before there was a public release so things could be tweaked without effecting LFSWorld?

Quote from Hoellsen :

Don't take it for granted we're getting a S3 alpha only because we have a S2 alpha.

I wasn't taking anything for granted - please re-read my post again. Regarding the possibility of releases after S2 Final, I made some suggestions about what might happen by extrapolating from what has happened in the past, I then used the phrase "no-one knows for sure."


Anyway, I'm getting sick of being misrepresented - so:

Assuming that its possible to add ballast without invalidating replays and hotlaps

In my opinion, adding a Ballast feature ASAP would be a good thing - and should have no negative impact.

I vote for Ballast NOW.

Making other changes (tyre width, power etc.) to the cars in a patch would have much more significant consequences, and although I think it would be better if some of the cars were more closely matched, making changes that would effect hotlaps and invalidate replays at this point would be a mistake.

I vote for other balancing in the patch with the next physics update (when hotlaps and replays will have to be reset anyway)

Quote from col :

So why didn't you beta testers report that the cars were unbalanced before there was a public release so things could be tweaked without effecting LFSWorld?

Good question.. it is so obviously and clearly messed up.

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we would probably have to wait at least 12 months very probably more, until the first S3 alpha.

There is no other way to read this than that you are expecting a S3 alpha.

About beta tests:

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So why didn't you beta testers report that the cars were unbalanced before there was a public release so things could be tweaked without effecting LFSWorld?

You might have noticed that LFSW did not get reset when patch S/T/U was released.

Second: what we discussed in beta testing is nothing that belongs into the public, otherwise we would discuss it openly. Betatesting also doesn't mean you cannot state your opinion openly and stating your opinion opnely again doesnt mean that a betatester didnt do so internally or is not allowed to do so.

U guys are acting like babies. What is the point of having the cars if they same are all very similar. seems to me that as soon u loose a race u blame
it on the car being faster.

It seems to me you guys arent taking advantage of the specific advantages of each car. Only reason i say this is because, i never see any talk on setups on boards. Seems everyone just goes and downloads what they think is a fast setup.

instead of asking the devs to make u faster how about u learn to improve setups.

A last time: we don't want the cars to be all very similar and we don't want them to drive all the same.

What we do want is cars that can compete with each other given a series of different races at different tracks. We want a situation in that car 1 is the fastest at track A, but slower than the others at track B and again a different situation at track C. That way we hope to see more of a variety of cars being used. And mind you, I don't give a damn about the usual punters running AS National with 5 lappers all day, I'm thinking organized events.

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instead of asking the devs to make u faster how about u learn to improve setups.

I challenge your, or anyone for that matter to build setups for the FXR that gets it as quick as the FZR on any track (keeping WR time in mind). If you make it, I'll pay you 500,- EUR.

If you are still thinking the differences between the cars are only down to setups, you don't belong in this thread.

Quote from lalathegreat :

U guys are acting like babies. What is the point of having the cars if they same are all very similar. seems to me that as soon u loose a race u blame
it on the car being faster.

It seems to me you guys arent taking advantage of the specific advantages of each car. Only reason i say this is because, i never see any talk on setups on boards. Seems everyone just goes and downloads what they think is a fast setup.

instead of asking the devs to make u faster how about u learn to improve setups.

As a demo racer, you know nothing about the unbalanced car classes. At blackwood, the XR and the XF are pretty close to even, and the XRT is in a class of it's own.

Quote from lalathegreat :

U guys are acting like babies. What is the point of having the cars if they same are all very similar. seems to me that as soon u loose a race u blame
it on the car being faster.

It seems to me you guys arent taking advantage of the specific advantages of each car. Only reason i say this is because, i never see any talk on setups on boards. Seems everyone just goes and downloads what they think is a fast setup.

instead of asking the devs to make u faster how about u learn to improve setups.

man... you're a demo racer and wanna talk about the GTR class? oh c'mon, do us a favor... illepall

Quote from lalathegreat :

U guys are acting like babies. What is the point of having the cars if they same are all very similar. seems to me that as soon u loose a race u blame
it on the car being faster.

It seems to me you guys arent taking advantage of the specific advantages of each car. Only reason i say this is because, i never see any talk on setups on boards. Seems everyone just goes and downloads what they think is a fast setup.

instead of asking the devs to make u faster how about u learn to improve setups.

man, if u cant read what we said, just dont post

you are completely wrong when says: "seems to me that as soon u loose a race u blame it on the car being faster."

bla bla bla

In my experience of reading this forum, quite often there are demo racers who have much to say about something they don't have any experience of. What's with that? Why keep throwing in your two cents and getting people off-side when you have no relevant experience? Just curious.

Back on topic. I've driven each GTR car, not very much tbh as I prefer other cars, but it's clear there are advantages and disadvantages to each. They've all been mentioned extensively. I wouldn't have a problem with evening them out in some way as the FZR has a clear advantage over the other two, especially in sprint races where tyre usage doesn't come into play. Having three cars in the same class that can compete with each other without having too much in the way of an advantage would makes sense to me. Of course having them all the same would defeat the purpose of having different cars altogether. But as it stands, having one car that has a clear advantage over the other two doesn't make much sense either.

the key word in that sentence was "seems" as u can see am demo racer so am just giving what it looks like from the outside world so to speak.

am sure the GTR in question has some sort of advantage that u guys could exploit.

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What we do want is cars that can compete with each other given a series of different races at different tracks. We want a situation in that car 1 is the fastest at track A, but slower than the others at track B and again a different situation at track C. That way we hope to see more of a variety of cars being used. And mind you, I don't give a damn about the usual punters running AS National with 5 lappers all day, I'm thinking organized events.

why not be faster in different sections of the track.

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I challenge your, or anyone for that matter to build setups for the FXR that gets it as quick as the FZR on any track (keeping WR time in mind). If you make it, I'll pay you 500,- EUR.

i guess it really depends on what type of race it is. From what i read on this forum, it seems the FzR seems to be powerfull 400+hp RWD and the other is awd not so fast. on a track with alot of complex turns the FXR should have more consistency, if u made a setup that exploits that should be able to win.

What i am getting at is, I havent seen any inovations in setups.

Well, the way it looks from outside really has no bearing on the reality of the situation. To get an accurate understanding you'd need to test each GTR against the others.

As for better setups being the solution, the fact that you haven't seen any "innovations" here doesn't matter (and being a GTR-less demo racer I don't see how you could accurately judge something to be an innovation). This isn't the only LFS site in the world and people in teams and leagues are always sharing and comparing all over the web, not to mention online in LFS itself. I'm sure there is a great setup out there for evey conceivable GTR occasion Also, setups don't always translate well between drivers, as driving styles can differ greatly between two people. This difference is magnified, the more powerful and complex a car gets. So one man's golden pole position setup is another man's dog's breakfast which can't even help get him on the 5th row.

From my experience I've noticed this: an FXR with the fastest setup possible for a particular track racing against an FZR (also with its own fastest possible setup) will lose to the FZR's superior speed and acceleration every time despite its own excellent grip and handling, assuming that each driver is equally skilled.
I don't think anyone wants cars that are identical to drive, just a little bit closer in performance so as to provide competitive racing.

well maybe innovation is too strong of a word in this situation.
basically i was just trying to say there isnt enough discussion on the developement of setups. Having someone send u a setup dosent count.

I personally dislike the sharing of setups its really pointless to me since not everyone is using the same wheels or configurations.

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From my experience I've noticed this: an FXR with the fastest setup possible for a particular track racing against an FZR (also with its own fastest possible setup) will lose to the FZR's superior speed and acceleration every time despite its own excellent grip and handling, assuming that each driver is equally skilled.

what kinda setup are thease. are they time attack(hotlap) setups?.

How does this situation pan out after serveral laps 40-50 in terms of fuel consuptions and tire wear.

i would imagine the FZR would eat its tires faster and slow down a bit and be more likely to spin.

how long does it take an fzr to lap fxr.

just curious, i can't imagine its as unbalanced as u guys make it seem.

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i would imagine the FZR would eat its tires faster and slow down a bit and be more likely to spin.

Being a demo racer you should simply read a bit more before posting if you cant say anything based on your own experience. The FZR is not only the fastest but also uses its tires the best. So please either get S2 and try it yourself or just keep out of this discussion because you simply don't have any knowledge that you could bring into the discussion.

Everyone just keep attacking the fact that i am a demo racer

You're getting attacked because you simply don't have the facts right. Read the thread from the start and you would see the stats from Masters of Endurance 4h test race.
Ease of driving has to be taken out of the equation, a good driver can do consistent fast laptimes, no matter what the car is.

To be fair lala, if you had S2 and could drive the GTRs for yourself and see the differences, then everyone around here would take your posts a lot more seriously. Just assuming stuff about cars you haven't tried is like fishing with the wrong bait

Quote from lalathegreat :

I can't imagine its as unbalanced as u guys make it seem

...and that's the problem right there, you're just imagining! People around here would respect your opinions if they were informed opinions, and not just assumptions. So go get your license already

For the record i did read the whole thread before.

the reason for me posting was to understand the situation more. i never intended for my opinions to be held over anyone with the full game.

As i said before my comments came from the fact i never saw any detailed discussion on setups on this site. And i concluded that there must be a particular advantage theyre not exploiting{setup wise}.

Has anyone tried making a setup thats main goal was conservation so to speak. Setting up the car to stay out as long as possible. they FZR times should slowly get worse as times goes on. thats what usually happens in real life. Just curious (not trying to be sarcastic) what was the result if anyone tried.
//clearly this would not work in a 5 lap race.

Maybe a change in the cars isnt needed. As the game continues to be developed(aerodyn), it might slowly even out. untill then maybe u guys should add your own retrictions.

Limit the amount of fuel the FZR can take.
Limit the final drive.
Limit tires to the ones with the least grip.
Limit tire preasure.
i don't think there would be anyway to enforce it online so i guess if there was a community based standard for slight retrictions. Everyone who wants a good race between the two cars could abide by it

Even though lalathegreat is a demo racer, his point about setups is not as far off as some of you make it look, I think. The patch hasn't been out for too long and I think it's very well possible that further setup development might make the cars a little more even than they are now. I have to admit, I doubt that they will be as even as most of us would like them to be, but who knows.

I might be wrong here, but it seems to me that before the patch, the FXR had not been compatible for a very long time. It definitely wasn't for me. However, after some time (actually shortly before the new patch came out), I gave the FXR a new try and downloaded a setup from inferno (I think Flotch made it but am not quite sure). With that set I was actually faster on As National with the FXR than with the FZR. Of course, that doesn't count as much, as I'm far from being the fastest racer out there, but it seemed, that the FXR with the good setup suited my driving style a lot better. I wonder, if anybody else had a similar experience or if it was just me and maybe hope being the father of this idea (erm, I'm afraid that saying doesn't translate too well into english).

I agree. I havent actually had much time to race since the new patch came out due to varsity keeping me busy.

But i have had a go on a few of the tracks with the cars that have had there power/weight ratio's changed, I am aswell not the fastest racer...hope to get there one day , and yes some have become slower but the FXR has definently become more competitive!

The FXR is enjoyable to drive now and the sight of new pb's is always a good sign.

here's my 2c...
I definately vote for even cars in few categories. There is an opinion of making every car different, having lets say 20 categories - ok, have you raced a lx4 or fox lately? couldnt find a server with them and drivers having competitive laptimes (1 sec difference)? bad luck, or is it just like with pop pulp - the more variety brings less variety - ppl just race with the quickest and easiest cars to handle. So Id prefer some categories with quite balanced cars.
Devs could wait some time for community to tweak setups, but with physics change balancing cars would be unavoidable i think. My smal suggestion fro the devs is to take a sport car constructors attitude: with their own implicit technical boundaries (some race series technical regulations alike) theyd strive to achieve and not exceed them with specific car layout: FrontEngRWD, RearEngRWD, FrontEngFWD, turbocharged or not. With some constants (weight, weight/power ratio...) they would cut the number of possible tweaks. Now we have one tyre supplier designated by devs - Cromo Tyres - so theres no need to differ that.

Some say: oh, that change will ruin our ^^well^^established^^ hotlaps charts and replays. Really? The last patch came one month ago invalidating previous recordings so theyre well established certainly. Comeon, thats not a question.

And one thing more about balancing cars - what about servers. I did promote the idea of another server option - PB limit: when creating a server you can select a laptime and +/- difference needed to join server (then to join the race having specific car chosen). It opens all the possibilties (open servers, champs servers, restricted to noobs and so on). As I remember from S1 days we had champs and noobs, all the others were disencouraged enough or racing on team races only.

Mahlzeit.....

First for the records: I want the cars to be closer together in competition (I am avoiding the word SPEED on purpose).....I just do not want to be able to predict which car will win any championship.....

@Hoellsen - You are right in saying that weight penalties are not the way to take when trying to bring the cars closer together in competition, but at the same time I think it would not do any harm to add this OPTION now.

It might come in Handy for leagues and server admins and as long as it is an option I do not see a real problem.....

CU, Sebastian