I must stress that this is not anything I am certain of and this will get a bit technical. My asumptions here were started by this thread.

LFS's FF, albiet recongised as extremely good, has its downside - people claim that they cannot feel understeer. I have an idea as to why. The forces on the steering column are caused by the fact that the force centeroid (if you were to replace all the forces created by each bit of the contact patch with a single pair of forces - one longitudinal and one lateral - the point where you place these forces is called the force centeroid) is not at the wheel center. It is behind it in most cases. As such, when you turn the wheel and create a side force, this side force creates a torque onto the wheel which you feel in the steering column. This force centeroid moves around with lateral and longitudinal slip. Sometimes it is also to the side of the center of the wheel, meaning that if you had a longitudinal force, it would also influence aligning torque. If you look at a diagram of these forces, you can see that pressing the throttle in an understeer condition in a front wheel drive would make the wheel lighter.

I was testing if this is present on feel with the XF GTR on the Autocross earlier. It doesn't feel like there's a difference in FF between when you are turning and accelerating and when you are just turning. Obviously, I don't know how the LFS FF model works but I'd imagine it is based on these principles.

Did this really need to be a whole new thread?

Quote from Z0iC :

Did this really need to be a whole new thread?

Did it need a reply like that?

am I just a freak? I can feel the most subtle understeer through the wheel...

edit: I'm not a freak, I'm just wrong

Quote from Z0iC :

Did this really need to be a whole new thread?

Well... the other thread has nothing to do with FF, its more about lateral and longitudinal forces and their combination now. + the other thread had very few people interested... I'm going for a less technical discussion here, about what people think they feel though the wheel during understeer and whatever other situations LFS doesn't feel right in now.

It is an interesting point if it doesnt as from what you have said seems
that it should.
Im know when my car is undeersteering but i will need to look to see how i know, if any part of it is from my wheel.

Well, whether or not I can actually feel a change in force in LFS's FFB, I can tell 100% perfectly if I'm understeering. It might be forces, it might be just because I am accustomed to LFS's world, physics and feeling. It might even be purely aural.

However, I cannot tell quite so easily in nK, and I can barely tell at all in rF/GTR, no matter how I set up the controllers or cars. It's too long ago since I tried RBR (I lost the CD ), but if I remember correctly I could feel the understeer in that too (but I couldn't do anything about it, hence the uninstall).

It would be cool if someone can work out a definitive way to measuring the change in wheel force due to force feedback. Can you interrogate the FFB outputs from LFS/into the wheel? That way we can see exactly what LFS is doing? Just a thought, I have no idea how you would go about this.

iirc i can fell the understeer in lfs just fine and im convinced its through the ffb

currently the only thing i really dislike about lfs' ffb is that it doesnt spin the wheel fast enough when the tail steps out ... the automatic countersteering is there and i can feel the force just fine but from what ive seen the wheel should spin rather fast if you let go off it and maybe give it a little push which is something the ffb in lfs just doesnt do

dunno if its a technology limitation or my dfp or anything else though

I can generally tell when My own car understeers becuase I loose feeling through the steering wheel. In front wheel drive cars you still have the transmission doing funny things to the system, but in rear wheel drive you just got the tyres on the road. When you accelerate the front of the car gets lighter, thus makeing the steering lighter, thus loosing feel and sensation. So wouldn't that mean that any FFB in an acceleration understeer moment would be a lack of feel rather than anything else?

Although understeer under braking is a different kettle of mad frogs altogether . . .

I always can feel understeer as well... Granted, the effect isn't as extreme as in my car, but it's definately there...

I dont know how he got to that stuff, I notice the understeer VERY good. When driving the XFR, just turn in sharp. When pressing the throttle, you (I at least) can feel the wheel pulling.

Edit: Just tested it again, I must agree that at least it isnt so obvious as before the patch.

I don't feel an understeer condition in LFS, as in a long sweeping corner, the front is pushing but the FF feels the same weather I increase or decrease the amount I'm turning the wheel.

I think I get the correct feeling in the FF as if accelerating off a corner and there is a bump ( T1 at Sprint 1 ), I will feel the wheel go light as the tire leaves the ground. In the case of an oversteery car, loosing the rear, I feel the correct forces trying to get the car straightened up.

As apposed to tristancliffe, I do feel the understeer in NKP and GTR quite well.

Matter of FF setting

FF = 100%
Spring = 0%
Damper = 0%
Center Spring = Checked - 0%

25% to 45% in LFS depending on car

I played LFS a long time, and then i played NFS (SORRY!) and I was like: WOW! () Because the FF in NFS feels so real after playing LFS.
IMO the FF in LFS is just making the steer harder to move on tarmac, and lighter on gras (i assume..., but i haven't played LFS today, so i'm not sure).

It's not 'real' FF but it's good enough for me for now...

Quote from BlakjeKaas :

I played LFS a long time, and then i played NFS (SORRY!) and I was like: WOW! () Because the FF in NFS feels so real after playing LFS.
IMO the FF in LFS is just making the steer harder to move on tarmac, and lighter on gras (i assume..., but i haven't played LFS today, so i'm not sure).

It's not 'real' FF but it's good enough for me for now...

illepall FF in LFS is physics driven. Not sampled like NFS. NFS is just a center spring. We are just questioning if something is missing. If you'd like to know how FF works, read this. Although... I wonder if you could comprehend

Quote from jtw62074 (aka. Todd Wasson) :

What happens is that the "force centroid," or the effective center of that force, is not in the center of the tire in most cases. The force centroid is like a center of gravity really. All the little forces throughout the contact patch, when added up, are the same as some bigger force acting at one specific spot in the patch. You can see more distortion in the rear of the tire than the front in most cases, so it should be fairly intuitive that the force centroid is usually toward the rear of the tire.

This distance from the center of the tire to the force centroid is called the "pneumatic trail," and since that force is acting behind the center of the tire it tries to twist the tire. Generally it tries to straighten it up, but actually at really large slip angles it can reverse itself (i.e., it makes a torque). The aligning torque is simply this pneumatic trail times the lateral force.

Caster angle then adds an additional distance to that pneumatic trail. I.e., a line through the steering axis intersects the ground at a point. The lateral force acts behind that, so you get an additional torque. The distance from that point to the center of the tire is called the "mechanical trail." So aligning torque becomes (mechanical trail + pneumatic trail) * lateral force.

The aligning torque really doesn't do much to the handling. All it really indicates is that the force centroid is moving a little bit forward/rearward as a function of slip angle. This primarily is just a steering force feedback thing happening.

P.S. You're about to get flamed

Quote from BlakjeKaas :

I played LFS a long time, and then i played NFS (SORRY!) and I was like: WOW! () Because the FF in NFS feels so real after playing LFS.
IMO the FF in LFS is just making the steer harder to move on tarmac, and lighter on gras (i assume..., but i haven't played LFS today, so i'm not sure).

It's not 'real' FF but it's good enough for me for now...

Yeeea, i dont know what youre smoking, but stop before the damage is irreversable! I've played all the NFS games before i found LFS and there is no way NFS is even in the same rating as LFS. NFS does not react the phyics on the car and is simply harder on tarmac and lighter on rain/grass...not in LFS like you said. FF in LFS actually lets you feel the car and its action and actually helps you drive. illepall ok theres your flame.

About the understeer, I have a relatively cheap wheel, the Saitek 440 or something like that, and the FF on it isnt the best, but i do not feel any understeer, not sure if its cause of the wheel or the game, but truthfully it doesnt take away from what i can do with the car so not too important for me.

One thing that may or may not be related to your comments Axus (probably not as I am only 80% comprehending that thread, having only time to speed-read it... need to sit down and think about! Great thread!).
Note that dry steering in LFS does not produce the rebounding effect it does in real life... Could this have to do with aligning torque calculations?

Also, I am unsure exactly what I am feeling in LFS during FWD understeer. I know as stated above that acceleration (straightline OR out of a corner) on the FWDs feels VERY realistic. Accelerating in a straightish line feels identical to real life... Putting some power down in the boss's 250hp PT Cruiser (taking on an X5, beat it alright too!) for the first time actually made me say out loud "That feels just like LFS!!!111" hehe.. Good times.

:hihi:

Quote from BlakjeKaas :

Because the FF in NFS feels so real after playing LFS.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

One thing that may or may not be related to your comments Axus (probably not as I am only 80% comprehending that thread, having only time to speed-read it... need to sit down and think about! Great thread!).
Note that dry steering in LFS does not produce the rebounding effect it does in real life... Could this have to do with aligning torque calculations?

Also, I am unsure exactly what I am feeling in LFS during FWD understeer. I know as stated above that acceleration (straightline OR out of a corner) on the FWDs feels VERY realistic. Accelerating in a straightish line feels identical to real life... Putting some power down in the boss's 250hp PT Cruiser (taking on an X5, beat it alright too!) for the first time actually made me say out loud "That feels just like LFS!!!111" hehe.. Good times.

Dry steering? Please elaborate, never heard of this before.

Quote from axus :

Dry steering? Please elaborate, never heard of this before.

Steering while not moving.

Sit in your parked car and turn the wheel and when you let go it will rebound presumably due to the contact patch being twisted before there is enough force to actually change the heading at the contact patch.

(this does not happen in LFS)
edit: although haven't tried since the patch.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Steering while not moving.

Sit in your parked car and turn the wheel and when you let go it will rebound presumably due to the contact patch being twisted before there is enough force to actually change the heading at the contact patch.

(this does not happen in LFS)
edit: although haven't tried since the patch.

While the car is stationary, there is no longitudinal force, so what I'm saying wouldn't affect it, no.

Nonetheless..

It seems to show that tire deformation in that direction doesn't affect FFB, which could also be a problem.... :

It does. Turn the wheel when stationary with the brakes applied and the FFB loads up and springs back

yeah, I noticed that with the brakes on - but that just because of the lack of rotation. There should be an effect on the FFB for different reasons without the brakes on also.

Quote from tristancliffe :

It does. Turn the wheel when stationary with the brakes applied and the FFB loads up and springs back

Yes, but should having the brakes applied make any difference to FFB when the tyres aren't rolling anyway?

Quote from Bob Smith :

Yes, but should having the brakes applied make any difference to FFB when the tyres aren't rolling anyway?

Yes there should be more resistance because the tires can't rotate.

(how much depends on steering geometry).

This is already apparant in LFS (most noticable in the BF1).

What isn't is the deforming of the rest of the tire with respect to the contact patch until there is enough force to overcome the friction at the contact patch and actually change the direction the contact patch is pointing. IRL if you turn the wheel a bit and let it go it will spring back a bit as the tire aligns itself with..... itself.