When I first saw the maldonado-hamilton incident it looked like lewis was just trying to barge through but now after few youtubes I think it was just a racing incident. At least from the videos that I saw lewis looked like he had enough overlap.

As for the massa-hamilton incident I think it was hamilton's fault. He just took a late dive, didn't have enough overlap and he defenately could not have slowed down the car enough to even keep the inside line. Lewis basically went in all guns blazing, locked his inside front brakes, collided into massa and massa had nowhere to go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sO9aDoTRs0

I suggest that you look at the replays of the collisions. In Massa/Hamilton Hamilton sees where Webber is, there's no doubt. Massa can't do anything else than stay inside to avoid collision with Webber. Hamilton sees he can't win but still tries to take a shortcut and ends up pushing Massa to Webber. (causing Massa destroy his front wing) How on earth can you say that's Massa's fault? Hamilton's front tires are about at the level of Massa's rear tires when the ''overtaking attempt'' begins. Hamilton to blame. Period.

In case Maldonado just compare Maldonado's lines with the driver in front of him. That's right they turn in exactly at the same point. Besides even if Maldonado had given room Hamilton's line would have still caused the collision. He came too fast and the corner was way too sharp to turn in with that speed. He would've pushed Maldonado against the wall. Watch replays of this and Hamilton's pass of Schumacher and you'll see that they are different situations. In the successful pass Hamilton's neck to neck with Schumacher and in crash he's not. It's that simple. Had Hamilton been say 0.5-1m more in front than he was it would've been Maldonado's fault. Now...definately not.

Both attempts were overly optimistic and stupid. Hamilton tries to fit into a space where he doesn't fit and end of the race for Massa and Maldonado.

Quote from Juzaa :

I suggest that you look at the replays of the collisions. In Massa/Hamilton Hamilton sees where Webber is, there's no doubt. Massa can't do anything else than stay inside to avoid collision with Webber. Hamilton sees he can't win but still tries to take a shortcut and ends up pushing Massa to Webber. (causing Massa destroy his front wing) How on earth can you say that's Massa's fault? Hamilton's front tires are about at the level of Massa's rear tires when the ''overtaking attempt'' begins. Hamilton to blame. Period.

In case Maldonado just compare Maldonado's lines with the driver in front of him. That's right they turn in exactly at the same point. Besides even if Maldonado had given room Hamilton's line would have still caused the collision. He came too fast and the corner was way too sharp to turn in with that speed. He would've pushed Maldonado against the wall. Watch replays of this and Hamilton's pass of Schumacher and you'll see that they are different situations. In the successful pass Hamilton's neck to neck with Schumacher and in crash he's not. It's that simple. Had Hamilton been say 0.5-1m more in front than he was it would've been Maldonado's fault. Now...definately not.

Both attempts were overly optimistic and stupid. Hamilton tries to fit into a space where he doesn't fit and end of the race for Massa and Maldonado.

Allowing you to change tyres on the restart rule needs to be removed. It ruined what was going to be a classic finish. They pretty much just gifted the race to Vettel. Alonso could have easily got the win, Button getting on the top step was a tall order. They might as well have just finished the race at the restart because that is what allowing you to change tyres did.

But that is racing for you.

[edit: By chance, does anyone know what type of shoes DC was wearing? I recognise they are Adidas, but that is as far as my trend spotting goes, but I really like the look of them.]

I hope we can agree that the real farce here is allowing repairs and tire changes under red flag conditions. Ruined a potentially great finish.

Quote from Hyperactive :

When I first saw the maldonado-hamilton incident it looked like lewis was just trying to barge through but now after few youtubes I think it was just a racing incident. At least from the videos that I saw lewis looked like he had enough overlap.

Other angles are misleading. This is not sufficient overlap.

http://www.f1arab.com/2011/05/ ... handed-post-race-penalty/

Vettel was going to win anyway, even without tires.

But Hamilton bitching is enough. He would'nt leave more room for Massa either if their positions have been switched. He's always whining on another drivers. Probably most pointless driver in 2011. His ego is too big, his career is droping. He has no brain when he is driving...

Sorry Hamilton fans...

It's the responsibly of the driver making the pass to pass safely, on no occasion was either of Hamilton's passing attempts going to pass safely, just like Di Resta's incident also.

Besides what we should be talking about was the fact that even with out the DRS (more passes from other parts of the track than in the DRS zone) we saw passing at Monaco....Passing at Monaco. Unbelievable.

Brundle summed it up nicely; it can't ALWAYS be the other guy's fault.

Lewis has the air of a guy who no one challenges. Feels like he gets back to the garage and everyone slaps him on the back and says "Yes, that was Maldonado's fault and Massa too".

Poor people management on McLaren's behalf. They're creating a monster.

Pfft I think they were both racing incidents..

Massa's a little bitch for complaining. He did turn in early on Hamilton, and Hamilton had a clear run down the inside there. Loved the move by Hamilton.

Hamilton on Maldonado was a bit too ambitious from Hamilton... Maldonado DID however turn in on him. I'd give a warning to Hamilton but not a penalty. Maldonado was partly to blame for that one and so was Hamilton.

It just really bothers me how much Massa is a little bitch, Hamilton ran down the inside clearly, Massa turns in REALLY EARLY (could say he was trying to put pressure on Webber but still...) and Hamilton gives him a little rub on his way.

Thie entire Weekend was about luck(Vettel, Kobayashi) and not driving like a complete cock(hamilton, Massa, Di resta).

Schumacher did a really good job unfortunete for hes retirement.

Quote from Mackie The Staggie :

Besides what we should be talking about was the fact that even with out the DRS (more passes from other parts of the track than in the DRS zone) we saw passing at Monaco....Passing at Monaco. Unbelievable.

QFT

There was so much going on in the race that its easy to lose sight of that very fact.

Has every one forgotten the pass that Barrichello made on Schumacher? I wouldn't have believed a pass could be made there, and I bet Rubens was pretty made up. Brundle even commented that his jaw must be aching with the grin he must have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4zfUs4Thmo

All told, Monaco was a classic this season. The only downside was the farcical repairs/tyres for the restart. I'd have much preferred to see tyre warmers only, and parc ferme conditions on the grid. If repairs were needed, then only in the pit. This would bring a natural penalty of having to restart from the pit lane once the field had passed.

Quote from DevilDare :

So can anyone explain this?

yes... clearly you didnt watch f1 back then
there were plenty of people (particularly prost fans) who were (rightfully) massively critical of sennas often stupid driving

Quote from PhilS13 :

From Hamilton's point of view this is a VERY similar pass vs the one on Maldonado. Maybe only a little more overlap but that's it. The difference between the two for him is only the reaction from the other

on the schumacher pass he had nearly complete overlap on turn in on the maldonardo attempt hamilton pretty much hit maldonardos rear wheel with his front

i agree that the maldonardo one was borderline and lewis had more or less enough overlap to claim dibs on the corner but claiming the incidents were identical is just silly

Ayrton Senna take 2.

I've lost so much respect for Lewis. I understand most of this was frustration, but his driving this week was more like a child then a racer.

Quote from evilpimp :

Pfft I think they were both racing incidents.

+1

Both Massa/Mald events were a bit ambitious but alot of the time you get a nose up the inside, battling for position, in the closing laps, and you feel you just must go for the pass (on Mald ,ie).

As I agreed, I think they both are racing incidents, too bad it had to be Hamilton for both of 'em

Quote from TypeRacing :

But Hamilton bitching is enough. He would'nt leave more room for Massa either if their positions have been switched.

He left Schumacher room at that exact corner on the first lap so your wrong there.

Quote from Shotglass :

on the schumacher pass he had nearly complete overlap on turn in on the maldonardo attempt hamilton pretty much hit maldonardos rear wheel with his front

There was only sufficient overlap on Schumi because Schumi recognised the move and conceded which Maldanado didn't. This has to be taken into account when discussing 'overlap'. I know I could make anybody trying to overtake me look like they t-boned me. It's quite simple. You anticipate the move and turn in just as it's being pulled. Works every time and you never get punished. Just make sure you throw you hands in the air in disgust as soon as it happens.

As I said earlier a driver on the outside, now, has a free pass to turn on on a rival driver when he so pleases. I think back to Adelaide 1994 and Prost Vs Senna Suzuka. If the championship is close and you don't wanna be overtaken at all costs... turn in.. no matter the consequence because you'll never be punished. . It's a sad state of affairs but that's how this F1 game works. If you don't like it, race somewhere else.

I guess it was why Senna was eternally frustrated with the sport. Though it's quite humorous watching the same journalists criticising Hamilton's style of racing while gushing over the Senna film. Senna did much more 'ambitious' moves than what happened yesterday.

Interpid you really have messed things up. It's not blocking if you're ahead and take a turn. What you're saying means that one should anticipate every stupid attempt from other's to come late into the corner and give room to everyone if they're close. It doesn't work like that. To pass you have to earn the pass. If races were rules ad you see them everyone would come into the corners like kamikazes because the one in front ''should've anticipated that I came too fast too late and ran into him.'' Wake up.

If 2 racers are side by side one can't turn in and block the other because he'd hit the other driver. If you're clearly in front you can turn in normally no matter where the other driver is because you have the advantage to choose you're driving lines.

Just watch the replays and check for yourself that in Hamilton's successful pass from Schumacher Hamilton is side by side with Schumacher. Therefore Schumacher has to give room. There's no such thing as anticipating other's attempts and giving room there. Just pure racing at it's best from both.
In Hamilton Maldonado Maldonado is in front, turns in normally and Hamilton comes behind, too fast and into Maldonado's side. If Schumacher had turned their tires would've hit. In this case Hamilton's wing hits Maldonado's side. Quite different don't you think?

I get it that some people don't want to punish for such accidents because in racing there's always some collisions and I don't think Hamilton wanted to hit Massa or Maldonado. He possibly just had a momentary lapse of concentration in his accidents or maybe he just wanted to overtake so hard he made a false judgement of the situation. The problem is that Hamilton does mistakes that end other's races or cause dangerous situations too much. It's even worse that he doesn't realize that and blames others.

And you clearly don't remeber Schumacher vs Villneuve in 96 since there Schumacher tried to crash Villneuve deliberately and lost all his championship points for that.

If Maldonado really wanted to defend the corner, he'd have moved to cover the inside line, this naturally makes for a slower exit. Hamilton was all over the back of Maldonado along the straight, and was clearly faster. It was hardly a late lunge. Alonso tried the same move on Vettel before the red flag, but Seb did cover off the apex well in the braking zone. Maldonado took the racing line with a faster car behind/alongside him, and did not pay due respect to having lost the corner.

Did Massa hit Webbers rear before Hamilton gave him a rub? Lewis definitely took to the pavement, and I believe was the reason the stewards found him at fault, but Massa also caused an avoidable accident too, and wasn't penalised - in fairness he was no longer racing so couldn't be any more penalised. For him to then make a complaint is bad sportsmanship, which he seems to suffer from.

Senna took some incredible risks, and somehow he is forgiven for them now. Racing is racing, and ultimately works when drivers can pass and be passed, without punting someone else off. The line between an inspired move and a dangerous one is very fine.

maybe they should just ban monaco, the damn track is too narrow anyways.

Had Schumacher wanted he couldn't have produced the exact same incident with Hamilton as what happened with Maldanado. he didn't because he observed the move early and conceded early by not released the brakes. hence why Hamilton got sufficient overlap. Had Schumacher not spotted the move it would have been an accident exactly like with Maldanado. The difference between a great overtake and a disaster is whether the guy being overtaken is willing to play ball.

Maldanado should have anticipated a move from Hamilton, Williams would have told him Hamilton can make a move there. Instead he chose not to defend on the restart, and then turned-in Hamilton. In a much less prestigious event I did exactly the same thing as Maldanado. I knew I had made the mistake by leaving a tiny gap. You leave a gap, expect to be punished. Hamilton made a calculated risk, and it's always a risk so he can take some of the blame, but to leave Maldanado blameless is naive. Rule #1 in motorsport... leave a gap expect to be punished. If I was working with maldanado that's what I would be telling him "why on earth did u leave a gap."

As I say, this is how F1 works nowadays. The only way to overtake is in a straight line and have it completely fully before the breaking zone otherwise you risk punishment. It's just lame, and it's no wonder drivers like Senna just got completely fed up with the sport... and openly stated he preferred other types of racing.

Maldonado definitely did turn in early too. Maybe he watched Prost defending against Senna at Suzuka and thought "so that's how it's done".

His move on Schumacher (and Schumi's on him) worked because by the point it came to the crunch (no pun) the overtaker was all the way alongside. He did little more than poke his nose in on Maldonado and Massa. It was front wheel to back wheel, more or less, both times. Also, the point of contact came when Hamilton was off the track, like Di Resta

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

His move on Schumacher (and Schumi's on him) worked because by the point it came to the crunch (no pun) the overtaker was all the way alongside. He did little more than poke his nose in on Maldonado and Massa. It was front wheel to back wheel, more or less, both times. Also, the point of contact came when Hamilton was off the track, like Di Resta

The only reason the overtaker was along side fully was because the driver being overtaken had recognised the move early and not released the brakes as usual. it's quite simple to understand. Had Koby not seen Webber, he could have turned in taken Webber out, and Webber would've been punished. If Schumi hadn't have recognised the move and not conceded, Hamilton would have t-boned him exactly like he did with Maldanado. However Schumacher was a little smarter and saw he's left a gap and the mistake was made so didn't turn in early.

Maldanado made the mistake of leaving room on the inside. If I was him I'd be more angry at myself than at Hamilton. I've made the mistake myself... didn't blame anyone else but me. Leave a gap and you get punished. Don't pretend your blameless... this is motor racing... not motor driving in single file. Hence why I believe f1 and often single-seater car racing is quite often lame.

Even in LFS you can turn in on racers all day long and not get ONE ban request. Free pass to take people out, it's wonderful watching people apologise for doing nothing wrong.