Hi guys,
I am making this thread just calm down my frustration.
My problem with tyre physics is the heat. I have never drifted a 200+ bhp car, but I have drifted a 150 bhp rear wheel drive car on ice and snow.
In LFS, seems to me, that when tyres are above 100 degrees Celsius hot, they lose completely all of traction, exactly like driving a car on ice (with no studs) and worse! I strongly believe that in real life even 140 degree Celsius hot tyres on tarmac will have way more traction than cars in LFS at that kind of temperatures.
Why I am touching this topic? I just hate, that now in regular S2 servers, all the guys burn their tyres until they are un-drivable, so that they smoked while drifting, and only then head out on track. I have a DFP wheel and lets be honest, it is not the best wheel for drifting by any means, and with hot tyres it is almost impossible to drift with 720 degree setup. The wheel just can not keep up with the car. Me, personally, even when I really want to drift, it is not fun anymore, because when drifting with cold tyres, you are way way faster than anyone else out there.
I was just wondering.. Is that really how it should be?
I want to know your opinion on this, probably some of you will have experience in this topic.
I apologize if such topic has been already.

we all know about this problem and we all hope that it will get fixed with the new tyre model, theres nothing else to do

Quote from e.M :

we all know about this problem and we all hope that it will get fixed with the new tyre model, theres nothing else to do

Ok, just to be sure..
So it is not just some wrongful thinking of mine, it really is like I said, the physics for hot tyres are completely wrong?

Yes.

use mouse for wheel

-Developers are still working on the new tyre psychics.
Is that answer good enough for ya ?

Quote from Artis89 :

I just hate, that now in regular S2 servers, all the guys burn their tyres until they are un-drivable, so that they smoked while drifting, and only then head out on track.

I'm not alone! :bannana_g

For me it's just stupidity. Why would you want your car to act unrealisticaly in a simulator?! This doesn't make any sense!
I hardly drift online lately, I'm tired of seeing that bunch of people masturbating in the pits... I mean doing burnouts.

Quote from Artis89 :

even when I really want to drift, it is not fun anymore, because when drifting with cold tyres, you are way way faster than anyone else out there.

These guys going sideways at 20km/h on overheated tires are just blocking the road for normal drifters (which hardly exist anymore) and when you hit them while attempting to overtake them they will look at you like at an alien and call you a "noob crasher".

Hope new physics will come soon and drifting online will not make me sick anymore. Would be cool if Scawen could give some more grip for hot tires in that upcomming incompatible test patch to make wating for new physics more pleasant

Quote from Amynue :

Would be cool if Scawen could give some more grip for hot tires in that upcomming incompatible test patch to make wating for new physics more pleasant

it would be cooler if the road cars didn't have their tires heated to 30C... i hope they "fix" that when they create limited setups.

surely 30 degrees would be a roughly correct ambient temp, depending on weather conditions of course.

Wich is sunny or cloudy, its never raining

Quote from TehKill3r :

Wich is sunny or cloudy, its never raining

Your point being?

Quote from danthebangerboy :

surely 30 degrees would be a roughly correct ambient temp, depending on weather conditions of course.

road supers (at least on the xrt) are preheated to 40° though which is kinda ridiculous as an ambient temperature... particularly since most of the tracks in lfs are supposed to be situated in england

Quote from Shotglass :

road supers (at least on the xrt) are preheated to 40° though which is kinda ridiculous as an ambient temperature... particularly since most of the tracks in lfs are supposed to be situated in england

When I've been SC and stationary for hours on end, the road tyres cool to 21 or 23 degrees, so I think this must be LFS's ambient temp.

From my own testing, I think the tyres in LFS lost too much friction when overly hot or cold but also heat and cool too slowly, so the actual friction change while driving around normally might not be too far off (though I've not seen any data on this topic) but it's more than likely quite wrong once tyres are left to become ambient temperature (a reason for the pre-heating?) or when you're drifting.

Does LFS simulate track temperature? Because if it's cloudy, the track will surely be cooler than if it were sunny. With my summer tires, I definitely noticed a difference from driving one morning that it was about 5C, compared to when it was sunny and 27C outside one afternoon a few days later and they were way more grippy. Dunlop Direzza Z1 (205/50r15), which for all intensive purposes are pretty much equivalent to "road supers" in LFS.

Though I noticed a difference between 27C and 5C, there isn't much of a difference between 27C and 30C ambient. Though, I haven't been able to test the performance of my tires terribly extensively. I plan on doing autocross this summer, so I shall get a better idea if I do so.

Quote from Artis89 :

Hi guys,
Why I am touching this topic? I just hate, that now in regular S2 servers, all the guys burn their tyres until they are un-drivable, so that they smoked while drifting, and only then head out on track.

Find a server with ppl who liking fast drifting, not all drifters love preheat, some use the track to gain temp :P

Physichs update will hopefully address this issue, so it finaly will be solved though

I'm not sure about this, but I don't think the new tyre physics is related to this topic.

The grip-vs-temp curve is PRE-DEFINED, not REAL-TIME CALCULATED. If our devs thought the curve's wrong, they could edit it in any way within a few minutes. But we've been waiting for ... To me the problem they found with the current tyre physics model seems to be how the tyre reacts to force - how it deforms, how is pressure distributed, etc. That IS calculated and very difficult to modify when found to be wrong.

I'm not saying that they will not update the curve this time. Don't know any details yet.

Quote from Bob Smith :

but also heat and cool too slowly

from my gut feeling id say the tyre core heats up too fast and cools down way too slowly
it feels almost like the tyres dont really dissipate heat at all which is also quite apparent by the way that the outer layer of rubber never really gets colder than the core even on the front of a single seater with 300kmh of chilly air rushing past it

Quote from Keling :

I don't think the new tyre physics is related to this topic.

That is exactly why I made this topic.
From what I understand, developers are working on the way tyre reacts on road, how it bends and deforms, but I hope, that the new physics will include improved tyre heating and cooling characteristics.
I am really looking forward to the new physics, the waiting is killing me. I hope it comes soon.

Quote :

Why would you want your car to act unrealisticaly in a simulator?!

...........
You are so true man!

P.S. It would be nice, if in the new physics, tyres would start to smoke when applied to friction and at an appropriate temperature. That way there wouldnt be any point for those smokers to continue ruining the experiance.

Quote from Artis89 :

That is exactly why I made this topic.
From what I understand, developers are working on the way tyre reacts on road, how it bends and deforms, but I hope, that the new physics will include improved tyre heating and cooling characteristics.
I am really looking forward to the new physics, the waiting is killing me. I hope it comes soon.

Well, the devs were talking about the heating in the December progress report:

http://www.lfs.net/?page=report_dec2009

Read this from Scawen (when he discovered the flaws in the WIP tyre model):

progress report 1

Progress report 2

It seems that tyre heating / cooling was part of his problems, so... he's working on it

Quote :

Tyre heating and cooling

As the tyre model is completely different, both in the contact patch (frictional effects) and also the way the tyre reacts to loads (deflection depending on air pressure and sidewall stiffness) the old tyre heating system no longer worked properly. So we have been trying new things, with some success, but at this time there are still noticeable issues that need to be sorted out. We found it impossible to simply use the old heating model with some adjusted figures as we had hoped. Some more real updates are needed to get the heating and cooling of tyres right.

That looks cool.

Quote from Bose321 :

Your point being?

That there arent any "weather conditions" as the post above me said. Its cloudy, or sunny.

Quote from Keling :

Tyre heating and cooling

As the tyre model is completely different, both in the contact patch (frictional effects) and also the way the tyre reacts to loads (deflection depending on air pressure and sidewall stiffness) the old tyre heating system no longer worked properly. So we have been trying new things, with some success, but at this time there are still noticeable issues that need to be sorted out. We found it impossible to simply use the old heating model with some adjusted figures as we had hoped. Some more real updates are needed to get the heating and cooling of tyres right.

Sounds to me like Scawen is simply trying to get the old(current) tyre heating system to work with the new tyre model, in which case no there wont be any changes to the way the tyres heat up and cool down!

Issues with tyres heating/cooling is the main thing which took me out from driving in LFS some time ago. Right now after few laps of faster driving tires are starting to sleep a lot and driver starts struggling to keep the car on the road.

Unfortunately new tyre physics is delayed and we see a lot of people leaving LFS servers. I bet tyre heating/cooling is the one of main factors for doing it. So maybe Scawen should really think about changing some coefficients/parameters in the tire heating/cooling model to quickly help in that department. This will be really helpful during wait for new tyre physics.

I'm also thinking that temp/grip ratio can be right in LFS. The main problem is related to the speed of heating/cooling process. In real life it is very hard to keep that high tyre temperature, while in LFS tyres are heating quite fast and after that it is very hard to cool it down. I also noticed that in cars with small wheels (UF1,UFR) this problem is less severe. Smaller wheels are rotating faster which helps cooling it.