Well, most teams can make it to the waiting list in IGTC, so that sounds stupid imo.

Quote from CSF :

:chairs:

Try not contradicting his post given you are on the bloody IGTC waiting list!
- Read Broe's post again.

I've read all of this thread and i downloaded the PDF rules and read thru them.

Where does it say that being on the waiting list for IGTC automaticly bans you from GTAL?
I thought it said "no IGTC experience".
Our team has no previous endurance racing experience in any league so i do not see why we would not be allowed to "apply" to GTAL. We are not and have not participated in any endurance league so far.

Does being on the waiting list = participating?

From the rules of GTAL:


Does participating = be on the waiting list? Or does it mean actually start/drive 1 race or more?

Does "have an entry" = be on the waiting list? Or does it mean start/drive 1 race or more?

This is a bit unclear to me.
Could you please clarify this so its 100% clear what is meant by this.

As far as i know none of the SCCC endurance team drivers have ever driving in GTAL, IGTC or MoE. Therefor we seem to be eligible to apply for GTAL, right?

I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, i would just like to have this cleared up so we (SCCC) know what to do.

You seem to have a 'box full of neutrals. Read the posts carefully.

Broe says he doesn't want it to become a waiting list for MoE/IGTC then your german mate comes and contradicts himself by agreeing with Broe despite the fact that you have applied for IGTC (though in fact you're not on the waiting list)!

I would say that given you've not done endurance racing before, GTAL is your better option.

/slap Deutschland2007

There

And yes your reply made me look at it differently.

But i still want an official reply from the crew to rule out confusing 100%.

GTAL should, on my view, be seen as the development/proving ground for the newer teams or lesser experienced teams to endurance racing, and there should be a potential natural driver progression to IGTC / MoE of some type.

As long as LFS development continues, and as long as new people come in with an interest in GT endurance racing, there will always be a pool of new amateurs to fill the GTAL ranks. But some, no doubt, will eventually want to try to advance up to IGTC or MoE, when they feel they are ready.

The rules for Season 2010 will be based off of drivers, not teams. Just because a team has an entry in MoE doesn't mean they can't have an entry in GTAL. They could have drivers who haven't done GT endurance racing before, and want them to get experience in a "lower" series. Not a full trial by fire, as it were.

Our rule will be based to let teams have entries in all three series even, but we will take the concern on to the drivers who are put in to drive. It for sure won't be a two year period, but will stil be beyond a year. Then beyond that, the full details are still being pondered.

d

Thank you for clearing that up Dekojester.

Reason why SCCC applied to IGTC was simply because we did not know about GTAL and believed that IGTC was the first step to endurance racing. Until we bumped into GTAL . Currently our IGTC application will stay up, until we have full confirmation to be able to participate in the upcoming GTAL season.

While I am present here, a big thank you to the new management for pushing this league forward. If you require aid with something, please let us know. Our Cabbies would gladly aid you in organising this endurance league.

Sincerely,

Quote from Tomhah :

I just came with an idea. What about this?:

If a team has never driven in IGTC before (That a drive is in a team that havent been in IGTC/MoE), everyone in that team should be allowed to drive GTAL, but the teams that have teams in IGTC/MoE, we can have a maximum number of starts in IGTC/MoE or something (or that you review the drivers, one by one for example). Thats at least my opinion.

As there isnt easy for a team to "show what they got", to get up to MoE/IGTC, when they arent allowed to use a driver, because he has done 3-4 races for another team before. Endurance Racing is a team-sport, where every driver counts. And since this is a feeder series to IGTC/MoE, which is a team-based championship (and so is GTAL), I would like that most of the members can take part, as long as they havent done TOO many IGTC/MoE races/is way too fast, of course

Just an idea.

Good idea!

Sometimes it would be smarter to read all post in a forum bevore I say something.

But i make my post at the base of the end of the season and all the statemants about drivers they would drive in the GTAL but they couldn`t why they did some races at the major leaug.Because I starts to get the fealing that a team with a bunch of fast drivers would change the drivers between the leaugs to have at every track the best and fastest drivers combination.

Sorry for my bad english I hope you could understand what I try to say.

greatings
Broe

Quote from dekojester :

GTAL should, on my view, be seen as the development/proving ground for the newer teams or lesser experienced teams to endurance racing, and there should be a potential natural driver progression to IGTC / MoE of some type.

As long as LFS development continues, and as long as new people come in with an interest in GT endurance racing, there will always be a pool of new amateurs to fill the GTAL ranks. But some, no doubt, will eventually want to try to advance up to IGTC or MoE, when they feel they are ready.

The rules for Season 2010 will be based off of drivers, not teams. Just because a team has an entry in MoE doesn't mean they can't have an entry in GTAL. They could have drivers who haven't done GT endurance racing before, and want them to get experience in a "lower" series. Not a full trial by fire, as it were.

Our rule will be based to let teams have entries in all three series even, but we will take the concern on to the drivers who are put in to drive. It for sure won't be a two year period, but will stil be beyond a year. Then beyond that, the full details are still being pondered.

d

But if a team does not have an entry in IGTC/MoE, will they also be reviewed, driver by driver?

Im quoting my last post:

Quote :

I just came with an idea. What about this?:

If a team has never driven in IGTC before (That a drive is in a team that havent been in IGTC/MoE), everyone in that team should be allowed to drive GTAL, but the teams that have teams in IGTC/MoE, we can have a maximum number of starts in IGTC/MoE or something (or that you review the drivers, one by one for example). Thats at least my opinion.

As there isnt easy for a team to "show what they got", to get up to MoE/IGTC, when they arent allowed to use a driver, because he has done 3-4 races for another team before. Endurance Racing is a team-sport, where every driver counts. And since this is a feeder series to IGTC/MoE, which is a team-based championship (and so is GTAL), I would like that most of the members can take part, as long as they havent done TOO many IGTC/MoE races/is way too fast, of course

Just an idea.

Quote from Tomhah :

But if a team does not have an entry in IGTC/MoE, will they also be reviewed, driver by driver?

Im quoting my last post:

you always try to get kenneth into GTAL.... simply wait for the rules and see what NDR does

Quote from Trekkerfahrer :

you always try to get kenneth into GTAL.... simply wait for the rules and see what NDR does

hahahahahahaha, no...

I DID try to get Kenneth into GTAL, this is not for Kenneth, but for other drivers. Kenneth is IGTC worthy soon enough, after doing other events, and has proven himself very nicely. I am doing this for other drivers, as I bet some drivers will be in the bad situation. And CoRe Racing has an IGTC/MoE team, so if you read what I wrote, Kenneth would still not been able to driver GTAL for CoRe Racing. I said that that rule should only apply to teams who does NOT have a team in IGTC/MoE Of course this is up to the admins, but Im giving my opinions. I discuss the rules before the season start, and is giving my opnions, what is wrong with that?

This is just a suggestion to the problem, which I find as a pretty good solution. I really do care about that people/teams should get the best chance to improve, and thats why Im very activ when it comes to this rule in GTAL. Its because I know its hard for new teams to show what they really got when they dont get a space in IGTC/MoE, and I hope you understand my concerns.

I think there are a few different scenarios here:

• Team has no entry into IGTC/MoE, and no drivers having done IGTC/MoE (eg. E-Team, Xcite, SRS (:tilt) --- OK
  
• Team has entry into IGTC/MoE, and uses no drivers having done IGTC/MoE (eg. SR, EER, CD) --- OK
  
• Team has no entry into IGTC/MoE, and all drivers have done IGTC/MoE before (eg. a newly formed team) --- IMO they should not be allowed as they have too much experience. Guest team, perhaps.
  
• Team no entry into IGTC/MoE, but has some drivers who have done IGTC/MoE before (eg. LRT) --- OK, so long as they don't use drivers who have done IGTC/MoE before. If they lack drivers or it is a longer race then you could allow them to use an IGTC/MoE driver for 1 or 2 hours at most.
  

If you have any more scenarios please list them.

Regards your quoted post, that is entirely correct, they shouldn't be able to use drivers who have done IGTC/MoE before. Like you say, endurance racing is a team sport, so just because one driver (Ken in LRT's case) isn't allowed to race doesn't mean the rest of the team can't drive, after all, if that one driver can't drive an IGTC/MoE race then the rest of the team would have to step up.

Just because drivers have done IGTC/MoE races for another team doesn't mean they lose their ability to drive to a higher level if they change teams. That's why they shouldn't be allowed to drive in GTAL, for the reasons you give - to allow the other drivers in the team to get experience.

I cant agree more with you But... on the last one, I think it depends on how many hours he/she has done. I mean... like two hours.. then change team... in my opnion, they should then be allowed to driver for the team. But if the person has done more than 4-5 hours, they should not, as I would qulify them as IGTC worthy (well, if they came last in all the races, maybe not:razz, but I hope you see my point. Some drivers may just be pushed into the car, because one is sick or cant drive, and then, I wont really say that they're IGTC worthy. But... Again... Its just my opinion. I agree with the other things you say, and this is a really hard rule make perfect, if even possible :P

I think a perfect ruel for this case didn`t exist.
But the idea with the time limit isn`t bad.

What do you think about a smal gentleman agreement between all Race-Team Managers: They have to check that no racer for the GTAL haven`t to much expirence.

And is theire any chance to check every driver how much houres he/she have drive in IGTC/MoE?

Quote from Damion1972 :

I think a perfect ruel for this case didn`t exist.
But the idea with the time limit isn`t bad.

What do you think about a smal gentleman agreement between all Race-Team Managers: They have to check that no racer for the GTAL haven`t to much expirence.

And is theire any chance to check every driver how much houres he/she have drive in IGTC/MoE?

Damion was right, the rule was fairly black and white for me, but grey for some others. I think that IGTC drivers should be allowed, but this rule shouldn't be abused, for instance, no driver who's driven a total of 3< hours can drive in GTAL. My 2 cents.

Checking racing hours ? Hmm. I believe that our new Admins do have better things to do than that. I don't really understand the fuzz about the issue here. It's easy and clear, why always try to bend the rules or abuse the loopholes .

GTAL is for teams who're new or reasonable new to endurance racing in LFS. If you're racing in MoE you're obviously no longer an amateur. IGTC might be borderline, then again... it's obvious that a team of nFinity eSports or Core Racing is not new to endurance racing. If your team races in MoE or IGTC, you can't race in GTAL, unless bringing in an entire new pack of drivers to endurance racing. Like this for example Core Racing can introduce their younger, unexperienced in endurance racing drivers also into the world of endurance racing while defending their team name and colours. If a driver has ever raced in MoE or IGTC he or she can not race in GTAL, like this we also avoid some pre-planning in drivers doing one season MoE, other season GTAL. Primary focus is on the drivers, secondary focus is on the teams. I believe that's pretty crystal clear and not abuseable. If one of the big teams cancel their application to IGTC or MoE in order to race in GTAL-only and "win hands down", well... guess that says enough about what kind of team that is... I doubt that will happen.

Looking forward to hear more about GTAL soon !

Okay, so finally decided to give my two cents here

I don't really like that rule forbiding to any ex-IGTC or MoE to take part on the GTAL TBH. Let's get clear, getting into the IGTC remains a great chance for "average" racers. Once you have it, you have to take it. But now, if for some reason, the race didn't get well for you, and no one in your team wants to give you another chance for 2010, that means you're out of the endurance scene for a whole year, and eventually more, as you're not welcome in the GTAL either. 1 year could seem to be not so much for some of you, but remember that for example it's a quarter of the age of the older LFS endurance league, MoE.

Even in real life motorsports, you have the right to not show up well at the pinacle without being rejected on the supports series. Just look at Pantano, Glock, Bruni, for example. All of them hadn't much success during their first attempt on Formula 1, but they had the opportunity to go back to GP2, with as a result for Glock, a full time F1 slot now. Now, I don't understand why on such an unforgivable environment, a second chance is given, whereas on LFS, there isn't.

If this sort of rejection is done to give a slot to the fresh new teams, I'd understand, but now, if you look closely, only 23-24 teams took part in each race, which means there's a lot of slots avilable, and this won't change for Season 2, seeing the way LFS stagnate on its developpement at the momment.

Now when I see that deko hopes to attract much more teams present on IGTC or MoE, to give more experience to their new members, no offenses, but I'm oblige to :rolleyes:. Let's get serious, managing a team, preserving the members' interrest and so on is damn' difficult on this kind of series. You can't say "We'll start the season with 3 guys and let's see how it goes". No. This doesn't work like that, and many drivers are obliged to pull over at some stage, because of familly commitements, or because they just got a chance to get into MoE/IGTC, or to get into a bigger team. That's why I'd say that 6 drivers should be enough to start a season if you take average guys. Now let's say that an average team counts 15 racers. If you start on the fact that 7 or 8 already raced on IGTC/MoE and that 4 or 5 cba/doesn't have enough time to do endurance, you only have 2 or 3 guys left for the GTAL. Just look at what happened to XFusion during this first season, or at TRDT's(which remain an endurance based team) withdraw before even the first round of the season. IMHO, only very big teams like ConeDodgers and Sonicrealms, can do both IGTC and the GTAL, just because of their epic amount of drivers they have inside of their team.

So, what I'd like to see, as a driver and as an ex endurance team-manager, is a softer rule on that point. As suggested before, a number of hours driven on IGTC seems to be a good thing, but IMHO there should be a distinction between the race winners and the rest of the field. An alien, who won once on IGTC out of the 2 races he took part, but cba to involve himself more in these series shouldn't be allowed to take part, while the average racer who took part in two races and finished 20th or so in both of them, and can't do more in the IGTC because someone else replaced him should IMO. Both of them drove the same amount of hours, but they are very different. That's why I'd like to see a limit of results, maybe something like 8th, which means you're out of the GTAL if you do better than that, alongside of a maximum amount of races driven, maybe something like 4 or so.

I agree with you Yann. This is what I have been trying to say. I think that what you suggest at the end, would work, but that if a driver feel that he isnt IGTC worthy, he can write a PM to the GTAL leaders, to ask for an exception. Then, they will review if he is good enough for IGTC or not. The guy who doesnt feel he is good enough for IGTC, should also say why he doesnt feel so etc, and tell a bit about the background. Thats what I think would be a rule, closer to perfect.

So this:

Quote :

So, what I'd like to see, as a driver and as an ex endurance team-manager, is a softer rule on that point. As suggested before, a number of hours driven on IGTC seems to be a good thing, but IMHO there should be a distinction between the race winners and the rest of the field. An alien, who won once on IGTC out of the 2 races he took part, but cba to involve himself more in these series shouldn't be allowed to take part, while the average racer who took part in two races and finished 20th or so in both of them, and can't do more in the IGTC because someone else replaced him should IMO. Both of them drove the same amount of hours, but they are very different. That's why I'd like to see a limit of results, maybe something like 8th, which means you're out of the GTAL if you do better than that, alongside of a maximum amount of races driven, maybe something like 4 or so.

AND that drivers can apply for exceptions, if they for example have done more than 4 starts, or was just lying on the other team-members performance in that race, while he was doing a bad job, but they managed to finish like 7th-8th because of the other team-members.


EDIT:

Quote from GianniC :

Checking racing hours ? Hmm. I believe that our new Admins do have better things to do than that. I don't really understand the fuzz about the issue here. It's easy and clear, why always try to bend the rules or abuse the loopholes .

Right now, there isnt any rules about this yet, and we are free to discuss the rules.

Thats my 2 cents. At least, it seems that me and Yann is having the same idea. As we both have been managers, and we both are drivers, and we both feel that you're not supported enough the way up to IGTC (at least imo :P)

I don't think they will hear anything...

Quote from GianniC :

Checking racing hours ? Hmm. I believe that our new Admins do have better things to do than that. I don't really understand the fuzz about the issue here. It's easy and clear, why always try to bend the rules or abuse the loopholes .

GTAL is for teams who're new or reasonable new to endurance racing in LFS. If you're racing in MoE you're obviously no longer an amateur. IGTC might be borderline, then again... it's obvious that a team of nFinity eSports or Core Racing is not new to endurance racing. If your team races in MoE or IGTC, you can't race in GTAL, unless bringing in an entire new pack of drivers to endurance racing. Like this for example Core Racing can introduce their younger, unexperienced in endurance racing drivers also into the world of endurance racing while defending their team name and colours. If a driver has ever raced in MoE or IGTC he or she can not race in GTAL, like this we also avoid some pre-planning in drivers doing one season MoE, other season GTAL. Primary focus is on the drivers, secondary focus is on the teams. I believe that's pretty crystal clear and not abuseable. If one of the big teams cancel their application to IGTC or MoE in order to race in GTAL-only and "win hands down", well... guess that says enough about what kind of team that is... I doubt that will happen.

Looking forward to hear more about GTAL soon !

You forget one thing.
At Conedodgers we have more as 50 members (and we are not the only team with more as 10 members) and only 4-5 of them are drive in the IGTC/MoE and the rest say we have not the speed or the time to practice to take part at this leauges.
This guys they have the time but not the speed and expirince for the 2major leaugs would drive here to get better.
And so I disagree with you when you say only teams they didn`t take part at the IGTC/MoE could drive in the GTAL.

Damion:

Quote :

This guys they have the time but not the speed and expirince for the 2major leaugs would drive here to get better.
And so I disagree with you when you say only teams they didn`t take part at the IGTC/MoE could drive in the GTAL.

So if Conedodgers brings forward a team consisting entirely out of non-IGTC and MoE racers, they perfectly can race in GTAL (according to what I propose - see bold below quote).

Quote :

If your team races in MoE or IGTC, you can't race in GTAL, unless bringing in an entire new pack of drivers

In General:

Quote :

At Conedodgers we have more as 50 members (and we are not the only team with more as 10 members) and only 4-5 of them are drive in the IGTC/MoE and the rest say we have not the speed or the time to practice to take part at this leauges.

Then why are you taking part in this league ? If you got 50 members (or +10 members) and you can't find 2-5 racers who can train for this league and are "fast enough by you word" to participate in this league, then why do you participate ?

Quote :

but that if a driver feel that he isnt IGTC worthy, he can write a PM to the GTAL leaders, to ask for an exception. Then, they will review if he is good enough for IGTC or not.

What's the definition of "not feeling IGTC worthy" ? On what criteria will the have to review this driver ? What is "good enough" for IGTC or not ? Just saying: this is way too subjective and I see the abuses of this already coming by miles (from eg. Core Racing).

Quote :

As we both have been managers, and we both are drivers

I'm a (team) manager and racer also, your point ? When I read Damion's and your proposal all I see is one thing: we're a big team, we want to shuffle in a pro in our amateur team so we can win.


How about this ?

Driver races in MoE ?
No GTAL.

Driver races in IGTC ?
No GTAL.

Driver has raced previous season in MoE ?
No GTAL.

Driver has raced previous season in IGTC ?
Individual review by admins, done on specific criteria which are made public. All teamleaders must agree.

Driver has raced previously (more than one season in between) in MoE and / or IGTC ?
Individual review by admins, done on specific criteria which are made public.

I think GTAL shouldn't be league for amateurs only because i dont think when some teams get up to IGTC so we have situation when MoE is full, IGTC full and in GTAL we got 10-15 cars (maybe, because we saw a lot of transfers in biggest teams and we have some empty places in higher leagues) and in that 3-5 are serious and rest will try and maybe never show on next round or they are driving too noobish... for teams who really want get to IGTC and they must show what they can in GTAL and race for real when rest of the grid have very low experience and get on the track without practicing and it means lot of crashes (maybe with bad luck for that 3-5teams who are battleing to be on the top of the league)...
So i Think GTAL should be something like that (3RD) lowest league something like:

F1 - MoE
F1.5 or F2 - IGTC
F2/3 -GTAL

and just only for example in GTAL can drive ~10last in standings IGTC teams because IGTC teams who are mainly on last places dont have sure situation and 100%chances to stay for next IGTC season.
Finally imo GTAL shouldn't be a league for Total amateurs only because in that top teams like Core, CD and others have very experienced 3-4 drivers for MoE/IGTC and rest of team members dont have a place to improve themself and this league maybe is their chance to drive in real endurance series.

p.s. I dont think admins want to spy and looking for that who have XX hrs in higher league for any driver.

Why do take me as CoRe Racing? Like that I will drive in GTAL? Of course Im a member of CoRe Racing, but Im talking from my point of view.

Condedodger are taking part, because they want their not-so fast and inexperienced drivers to get experience, without just beeing throwen out in one of the biggest leagues! They have 50+ drivers, where 5-6 of them is capeable of doing IGTC pace/has the experience to do it. Where are the 45 other drivers going to get experience from, to take the step up to IGTC? Tell me that... Condedodgers will for sure go for the experienced ones in IGTC, and its not easy to prove you're worth being one of those 4 drivers when you dont have any places to do show what you got/get experience!

an IGTC worthy driver is a driver who can a good pace, without doing mistakes, and is able to do so in the races. A driver who can that twice. Not only one time. If he has a lot of speed, but is always spinning the car each 10 minutes, he's not IGTC worthy, even though he is fast, in my opinion. You need to be fast, consistance and calm, in my opinion (and probably a lot more skills! :P)

You have not thought of that teams can have slower and inexperienced drivers, have you? No, you havent.

CoRe Racing does not use any proes in GTAL (if we even is gonna drive). That will be FAR AWAY from our points, and of course, CoRe Racing would never use any proes in an amateur league for winning. If we are gonna have a team in GTAL, its gonna be for our inexperienced drivers, who has barerly done any endurance racing. The results here is not important for us, as long as the drivers get experience. Im talking from my own point of view, but NONE would allow drivers like Phil Diaz, Nolan Scott or Rik De Jong in GTAL, as they have a lot of experience, and has done a lot of endurance races. But CoRe Racing does also have talents, and drivers who DONT have much experience in endurance racing (if at all), like Lennart De Jong, Yannick and Roland maybe. (Roland has done ONE race in MoE, where he finished 15th). Kenneth is soon or already ready for IGTC/MoE, since he has now tried to do as many endurance races as possible.

etc etc etc... The list goes on. Lets take an example for your team. Lets say you have one driver who has done one race in IGTC, and he is one of the drivers you want to use for GTAL, as he wont have the chance to drive in IGTC. Should he just drop endurance racing then? Or maybe he will even go as far as leaving your team, because your team can not offer what he wants.


bah... This was a lot of writing, and its very bad formated, but anyway. I hope I didnt do tooo many mistakes/write something I wasnt suppose to

Quote :

Kenneth is soon or already ready for IGTC/MoE, since he has now tried to do as many endurance races as possible.

No offence, but in my opinion, Ken has been ready for IGTC for a long time. And I do agree with the idea of having a rule allowing teams outside the top 15 to drive here.

Quote from pacesetter :

No offence, but in my opinion, Ken has been ready for IGTC for a long time. And I do agree with the idea of having a rule allowing teams outside the top 15 to drive here.

You think that because he has been fast. He has not been conistant, and has done a lot of mistakes, which has made him retire/loose a lot of places in many races. But he's improved on that now, which he also showed in the NDR race. Sorry Kenneth

Quote from Tomhah :

...
CoRe Racing does not use any proes in GTAL (if we even is gonna drive). That will be FAR AWAY from our points, and of course, CoRe Racing would never use any proes in an amateur league for winning. If we are gonna have a team in GTAL, its gonna be for our inexperienced drivers, who has barerly done any endurance racing. The results here is not important for us, as long as the drivers get experience. Im talking from my own point of view, but NONE would allow drivers like Phil Diaz, Nolan Scott or Rik De Jong in GTAL, as they have a lot of experience, and has done a lot of endurance races. But CoRe Racing does also have talents, and drivers who DONT have much experience in endurance racing (if at all), like Lennart De Jong, Yannick and Roland maybe. (Roland has done ONE race in MoE, where he finished 15th). Kenneth is soon or already ready for IGTC/MoE, since he has now tried to do as many endurance races as possible.
...

Good example. I don`t think it is a good thing to disable any team to the GTAL, if that means there will be no full grid at the starting line. I don`t know how many team like to join the GTAL, but IMO disabeling some teams to join the league might get less cars at the start, and that`s, I think, just what we do NOT want
Just my 2 cents

Talking for myself, as everybody already may have noticed, I`m racing for the CoRe team now I`m a big fan of endurance racing,I had my first endurance experience last Saturday at the 2 hr NDR event. For me, it would be awesome to race in the GTAL for the CoRe team. But when the rule about blocking a team also racing in MoE/IGTC, this would mean I cannot start endurance racing in the GTAL, and I should start in IGTC, IF CoRe decides to put me in. Because we can use every driver, they would probably NOT pick me, because I have too little experience (apart from me failing of course :razz in endurance event. That would suck totally , because I think the GTAL is THE league for amateurs starting with endurance racing.