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Cliffe crashes out of the lead
(324 posts, started )
Quote from tristancliffe :Bit of a bump, but this seemed the most recent thread in which to put this little link:

http://vimeo.com/4862120

I hope you enjoy watching it, even if the first half is a bit dull! The thread title is now a bit wrong, as I didn't crash out of the lead this time.

Awesome footage! I love watching onboards with telemetry puts things in perspective a bit more. Must be frustrating when your foot is too the floor but the engine doesn't respond!
Quote from Intrepid :Go out and get it then!

I'm trying, I'm trying!

I've just started doing a bit of karting actually, the Warden Law track near Sunderland is doing some arrive and drive races. I seem to be doing okay, 7th out of 21 at my first meeting with no previous experience of the track and no practice before the races! Oh, and I spun nicely spectacularly. I haven't bought a kart though, and most of the money for it isn't going to come from me, considering I've just turned 14. This ain't really the place to discuss it, though advice would be nice. Remember we have very little money available though, my family is quite poor tbh.
Great vid, you'd have won by miles if it weren't for the instability in that long right hander
Quote from traxxion :Great close racing there!
The first overtake: nice and clean. Second attempt: quite hairy.. (is he really that bad on the brakes?! ).. Third attempt, awesome! Harrison's overtake the lap after: just as brave! Finally: nice and clean overtake!
All in all very entertaining to watch, and nice to see honest cheering over the finish.. congrats on your first win!!!

Thanks

Quote from hotmail :is it the gearbox making that noise on 14min 50sec or is it your brakes?

That was the gearbox. I shifted down the 4th because I was on the inside, but found a box full of neutrals. Eventually managed to get it into the right gear with a slight blip of the throttle... Will check the gearbox internals later in the week

Quote from Vain :Nice video.

The trackvision stuff is really nice. From the sound of it I would've guessed you weren't brave enough to stay on the throttle at Gerrards and were struggling with understeer, but seeing the throttle inputs it seems that the injection system just dried out and you tried to keep the car straight to counter the issue. Is the fuel pressure perhaps not able to cope with the lateral acceleration or did you find another cause?
Oh, and are you struggling with oil temperature? The readout went from 60°C to 120°C, which is a rather significant jump...

A lateral G misfire. At 2.3G the carbs are going rich (no injection on this car ), and making the car splutter, hesistate and lose speed. Nothing I could do other than be smooth and take a wider line to reduce the g forces a bit. We fixed it for the following day by lowering the fuel pressure

The oil starts off cold (15°), goes through 60° as the car warms up, and settles at about 120°. This isn't really a problem as modern synthetic oils are fine up to about 150°. It does mean we end up with a slightly thinner oil, and hence slightly lower oil pressure, but that can be fixed by using a 10W60 or something.
Quote from sil3ntwar :Awesome footage! I love watching onboards with telemetry puts things in perspective a bit more. Must be frustrating when your foot is too the floor but the engine doesn't respond!

Yes. Yes it was. But I was quicker for the other corners. And once we cured the misfire I was another second per lap quicker on Monday morning.
Quote from NotAnIllusion :Great vid, you'd have won by miles if it weren't for the instability in that long right hander

No instability. Just losing power through it, especially when I got off the throttle and changed lines to lap people...

Glad you enjoyed it. I certainly did! Next up - DONINGTON
Forgot to say thats also one incredibly dull circuit. Could do with a few more corners to keep you awake!
Great footage, awesome data overlay. I'd love to see more. Good luck with your future adventures.
Quote from Timdpr :I'm trying, I'm trying!

I've just started doing a bit of karting actually, the Warden Law track near Sunderland is doing some arrive and drive races. I seem to be doing okay, 7th out of 21 at my first meeting with no previous experience of the track and no practice before the races! Oh, and I spun nicely spectacularly. I haven't bought a kart though, and most of the money for it isn't going to come from me, considering I've just turned 14. This ain't really the place to discuss it, though advice would be nice. Remember we have very little money available though, my family is quite poor tbh.

Well 1. your family isn't poor. Go to Africa and you'll see true poverty and then you'll understand the opportunities you really have!

Admittedly being 14 makes finding money difficult. As much as I like Warden Law maybe if you start now you can save enough to buy yourself your own kart. it may take a year or two but if thats what it takes.

Alternatively you can get yourself involved with helping some teams at the local club racing. You might not get paid much, if any at all, however what you will learn is shockingly valuable.

back on-topic. that car actually looks fun to drive unlke the last one CLiffe
Quote : I haven't bought a kart though, and most of the money for it isn't going to come from me, considering I've just turned 14.

Karts are a money pit. I would suggest competing in a rental series first - it's less financial investment and you get more track time for your money. Being 7th out of 21 in your first race it is clearly track time you need most, more than a kart... Getting into an owner driver series will only push you further down the results, increase the cost, and give you less minutes on track per £ spent.

When you are winning rental races and need to move up because the competition just isnt good enough, that is the time to start looking at getting a kart - by then, your folks and any potential sponsors will have seen - in a cost effective way - whether you're worth remortgaging over.

To put it in context, if I do an arrive and drive i'll usually lap the entire field atleast once in a short session. When you're as quick as an old has been who aches on cold mornings like me, go buy a kart
Well, we're relatively poor...at least compared to just about everyone I know. I do realise I'm extremely lucky!

I'm not aiming particularly high, I don't think I'll follow a racing or even a motorsport related career, but it would be nice to do a bit of racing. I think I might save up for a kart and get involved as much as possible though! You never know what might happen, if I find I have a lot of talen I might take everything more seriously, for now I'm just trying things out. Cheers for the advice.

Ooh, Becky posted while I was writing! Yeah, I'm in a rental series atm. I have to go through the categories, so I'm in a junior one now. It's for 8-14 year olds, so I'm easily the oldest there (the next oldest is 11 or 12) and double the weight of most of the kids! I doubt it's a very good indicator of performance... The next category up is aimed at children around my age, so that should be a little better. I'll see how I do there before making any major decisions I think.

EDIT: Uh-oh, fight! Hmm, I think I'll stick with the paragraph above tbh. As I said, I want to measure how good I am before taking any major steps.
Quote from Becky Rose :Karts are a money pit. I would suggest competing in a rental series first - it's less financial investment and you get more track time for your money. Being 7th out of 21 in your first race it is clearly track time you need most, more than a kart... Getting into an owner driver series will only push you further down the results, increase the cost, and give you less minutes on track per £ spent.

When you are winning rental races and need to move up because the competition just isnt good enough, that is the time to start looking at getting a kart - by then, your folks and any potential sponsors will have seen - in a cost effective way - whether you're worth remortgaging over.

To put it in context, if I do an arrive and drive i'll usually lap the entire field atleast once in a short session. When you're as quick as an old has been who aches on cold mornings like me, go buy a kart

sry Tristan hijacking your thread here

I couldn't disagree more Arrive and drive series cost an absolute fortune and you barely learn enough to be prepared for what we consider proper karting. When you consider the true cost of arrive and drive Vs owner driving it isn't all that different. Remember in arrive and drive you don't BUY anything. Its a flat rate cost. In owner karting you can SELL you equipment. The money recouped can be deducted from the overal cost total.

for example

I go on Ebay buy a £1000 kart
go to PFi pay my entry £40
Fuel £20
Spares and repairs £150 MAX

Spent £1220

Drive ALL Day

Go back on Ebay. Sell everything for £1000 again

total cost £220

name me a rental track where you can drive from 9-5 for £220 and drive a fast kart?

Also you learn 10x and develop more as a driver in owner karting.

Karting isn't a money pit. buying a house, having kids, and going on holiday twice a year is a money pit!

/off topic

we need a off topic thread creator
Quote from sil3ntwar :Forgot to say thats also one incredibly dull circuit. Could do with a few more corners to keep you awake!

Well there are about 100 different chicanes, but only the bikes use them. Theres also a lake in the infield that you can end up in if you screw up seriously badly.

Anyway yeah you were much faster than him 'cept for that misfire, damn now I want to get back into racing again.
It's not the most 'interesting' circuit, but Gerrards is bloody quick, and gives your neck a pounding (especially if, like me and most other club racers, you don't do any training on the neck!) because it's so long.

The esses and the last curve are pretty easy and conventional, whilst the hairpin is the slowest in the UK so requires a lot of lock. It's very easy to run wide, or simply scrub off what little speed you have after turn in. Plus the kerbs on the outside of the exit are really nasty!

Anyway, I've uploaded my pole lap from the following day. 0.007 seconds off the lap record (but they are set during a race, so it wouldn't have counted anyway). We cured the misfire overnight, so it was much easier.
http://vimeo.com/4883989
Quote from tristancliffe :It's not the most 'interesting' circuit, but Gerrards is bloody quick, and gives your neck a pounding (especially if, like me and most other club racers, you don't do any training on the neck!) because it's so long.


you spend all the cash racing trying to find tiny bits of time btu don't train you neck which can be done for free its free time FREE!
Nope. I don't have time or the inclination. It's not like I've really struggled to cope with 15 minute races. I could probably do about an hour before I wouldn't be able to hold my own head up. At no point does it affect my concentration or my ability to drive. I don't believe it would find me any time, certainly no more than spending the same time on the setup or preparing the car itself.
If you feel it 'gives your neck a pounding' then it IS affecting you. The fact you can recall that in your memory MEANS it did sap your concentration. And there is no one on earth you can tell me better fitness isn't an advantage.

If some young fit driver came into your championship with the neck of an Elephant and started consistently lapping .3 .4 that you quicker are youa seriously telling me you wouldn't somehow find the time to do some more fitness work?

But it's up to you and as you don't seem to have intent on a pro-driving career it doesn't matter that much.

I am hoping to race this summer at some club events and even I am planning a stupidly mad fitness regime coz the neck is the #1 concentration sapper!
So you are saying that I shouldn't feel it a bit the next day? I don't notice it at the time. And I'm not saying that fitness isn't an advantage - I'm hardly in bad shape, and for the level of competition that I partake in I am fit enough by far. You think Hamilton doesn't feel worked out at the end of a Grand Prix? You think Grosjean doesn't feel it the next day? You think Ricciardo doesn't know he used his neck muscles the next day?

You haven't seen my neck have you? But no, I don't have time for fitness work. I barely find time to do the washing up every few days. So no, I wouldn't. If some young, fit driver came into my championship then I'd just make sure the car was prepared better or that I drove better. I'm not tired after a race. I could do several in a row. I'm just aware for a few days that I used my neck muscles.

I don't have ANY intent on a pro-driving career. I'm not good enough, and I prefer the engineering side anyway. Having said that, my dad did jokingly suggest starting our own British F3 team with me as the driver (but also as an engineer, a mechanic, a designer, a machinist and a data analyst!!)

But who am I to argue with you? You've obviously had success at every level and know far more than I do about driving F3 cars at Mallory Park...
Quote from tristancliffe :But who am I to argue with you? You've obviously had success at every level and know far more than I do about driving F3 cars at Mallory Park...

It would be irrelevant if I had. It wouldn't make what I say and more or less valuable or truthful. For all you know I could be reciting the exact words of some F1 team boss or a physio and fitness instructor for the WRC.

I just gave some friendly advice and as usual get all defensive
But I'm not after your so called friendly advice. And once I've informed you of my actions (i.e. not training specifically) then I don't want a lecture from some wannabe in gokarts who hasn't had any more success than I have, and knows no more about it than I do.

Not defensive. I just don't want your opinion as I value it as worthless. You might call that semantics, but I see a rather large difference.

Tell me - when you go for a run or go to the gym do you ever feel it later in the day or the next day? If you do then clearly you are to unfit to drive karts, because paid atheletes who have time to train for hours per day wouldn't (as much).
Congratulations on a well fought and well deserved win Tristan! It looked a bit hairy a few times (the 'moments' at 100+, the grass at the hairpin and the divebomb), but it must be satisfying to win a race like this, battling most of the way there. Do you know what the problem is that's causing the telemetry to display the wrong gear sometimes (lagging behind gearchanges and showing 6th when you couldn't find a gear at the start of the last lap)?
edit

meh!
Very nice video and driving! It's a shame the brake sensor seems on/off, I would have loved to see the braking more detailed. How does the track position overlay work? Gps?
But as I have no intention or particular desire to make a career out of none of that matters. It's a hobby. I also do amdram as a hobby, and I don't intend to get voice coaching or make a career out of it.

I'm not entirely sure I know what you mean by ego. I know I'm not special as a driver. I'm not special as a race engineer (see the threads I've made asking for basic info), and I'm not going to win anything more prestigious that a club motorsport title or two. If that's an ego then I want out!!!
Out of interest Intrepid, in all the time you've been giving people advice on how to further their motorsport career, how far up the ladder have you actually climbed? Great videos by the way Tristan, look forward to seeing some more wins. Post videos of your wins too Intrepid, when you have some.
Quote from tristancliffe :But as I have no intention or particular desire to make a career out of none of that matters. It's a hobby. I also do amdram as a hobby, and I don't intend to get voice coaching or make a career out of it.

I'm not entirely sure I know what you mean by ego. I know I'm not special as a driver. I'm not special as a race engineer (see the threads I've made asking for basic info), and I'm not going to win anything more prestigious that a club motorsport title or two. If that's an ego then I want out!!!

An egoless person would have responded with a more balanced answer. They would have explained their situation without the need to put down the other person by claiming their opinions 'worthless'. They may have also asked for advice on where to improve.

This is perfect example of ego

Quote :But who am I to argue with you? You've obviously had success at every level and know far more than I do about driving F3 cars at Mallory Park...

I know personally of World Champions who have seeked driver coaching from people that have won barely more than a club race... and thats the reason why they are SO good. Little ego! It's a lesson in life as much as in motorsport! If i was at a kart track and you happened to be there and said you noticed me doing something that could be changed i WOULD listen. Even tho you haven't driven a proper kart (apart from some old TKM) I'd be foolish not to listen and try what u say with 100% commitment... you simply never know!! I've learnt so many times to not pay attention and listen can lose someone MANY opportunities they don't even know about.

I've met people much worse than you however. As I say your 10% from being very good but allow your personal issue with me manifest into an ego.

but your motivation is up to you whatever... what's the point of me even trying to help you out clearly it's a waste of my time. I've wasted my time like this before so I have learnt that lesson now Good luck anyway!
Quote from ATC Quicksilver :Out of interest Intrepid, in all the time you've been giving people advice on how to further their motorsport career, how far up the ladder have you actually climbed?

And explain to me why that has relevance? Some of the best football coaches, golf coaches, tennis coaches etc... have had limited success as a player in their chosen sport. Does it make them less valuable? It's fairly obvious I personally have not achieved major success on the race track but only an IDIOT would give that as a reason not to listen or even PAY for someone advice and coaching.

I can give you a big list of successful sportsman who turned out to be sh1t coaches!

Cliffe crashes out of the lead
(324 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG