I'd say Muscle car would be a good addition, but I am fairly sure that what people really want is a powerful FR vehicle with a proper heavy body to complete the LRF class.... (since the only fast road going FR we have weighs as a house fly and has some...behaviour issues...)
The cars I have in mind are
M3 / M5
Corvette
Viper
Ferrari 599
Supra
Coding the 599 would be an absolute nightmare, because so many aspects of the handling are directly controlled by the onboard computer. It is a very different car if you turn all of them off.
I approve of the rest of them though, certainly.
Secondly, there is something fun about man-handling a sloppy chassis old american car with rubbish brakes and a live axle, while some, nimble, turbocharged asianmobile dances around you, only to light up a 5.7l v8, and just overtake before the next corner, where you once again, take your life in your hands. imo.
Maybe once chassis flex is modelled in LFS, then classic muscle will become more worthwhile.
I can see the appeal of it though, and don't understand what the issue is over the crap handling. As long as everyone's muscle car handles equally craply, then it's all good.
I'm sure it'd come as a complete culture shock to race huge old barges like this, compared to the lightweight, relatively nimble cars we have now, but it'd be terrific fun.
Unfortunately I expect that any dream of racing muscle cars will remain just that - a dream. We already have a challenging set of cars in the LRF, and the only thing the community uses them for on public pick-up servers is drifting. With LFS's drift-friendly tyres, I suspect that any muscle car would also only see widespread use for drifting, despite all the talk in this thread of racing them.
It's all about make do what you have got. That's why people are drifting the LX6 and FZ50. Not because the porsches and caterhams are the best drift vehicles in the real world but because they are the only ones available in LFS.
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I don't really see the possibility to put a muscle car into the LRF class. First off, it doesn't really make any sense to have a porsche GT3 and a vintage american muscle car in the same class, even if it is mostly an aesthetical issue . And it would be very hard to balance the class to work because the muscle car would most probably be the heaviest car with most power. So on one end you have the rac, a light and powerless () car and on the other end of the range you have the amc (american muscle car :tilt. The other is "slow" on fast tracks while the other hopeless on slow tracks. Currently the FZ50 and rac work well enough together, I doubt a muscle car would work though. If there is a car that would work well in LRF it would be something like bmw m3 but not a vintage muscle car
Secondly if the muscle car ended up in its own class I doubt it would be any popular becasue of what it is. The sound wouldn't be anything too good with the lfs sound engine and with the current tire physics it would slide around a lot, especially with some harder and less grippy tires (which would/should be true to its era). With all that power from a natural aspirated big V8 it would really be a car that needs a smooth throttle pedal because otherwise it would just heat up the rears in no time. And with the "success" of the LRF class I really can't see the car getting any much online use either :/. As to clarify what I mean by a muscle car, I'm talking about a vintage muscle car that is in race trim with lots of horses, racing tires from 40 years ago along with the suspensions and other bits reflecting the cars from that era, not some boat from 1950s with a 3-gear auto box and claimed 400bhp along with awful suspension. It would be one of the hardest cars in lfs, or so people would think - and not drive it online.
On top of that there is still the slot open for the supercar class in LFS, for cars like Ferrari F430, F40 and alikes, the class for cars that are way too fast to be put into current classes but would still qualify as road cars. The muscle car might go too close to these cars and it isn't imho sensible to add cars that are so close to eachother even if the other one will always be slower. Especially when the said car wouldn't really create its own class that is for cars that are really different than the cars outside the class. But then again cars like scirocco are put into lfs and looking at the specs it's essentially a tad heavier and intake restricted FXO with road tires so a muscle car might be "a viper with intake restriction and more weight". Although, I doubt we ever see "a viper" :/.
As much as I'd like to see a vintage muscle car in LFS I'd like to see the more powerful road cars and I feel that the vintage muscle car (in race trim) would be too close to those. But then again those cars wouldn't probably be any popular so it might have more sense in putting something easier with slicks and aero into lfs, no matter how much I'd personally despise such decision
The only way to get a muscle car into LFS would be to add an ac cobra styled car with the LX8, an event that doesn't look like it could happen...
The character of each car is what made all cars what they are. It's not about badging or being american specificaly. E.g. Weismann's German roadsters being arguably more British than some British roadsters.
An AMC for LFS could just as well be a completely made up US/Aussie hybrid, modern muscle car. IMO they could definitely fit into the LRF class something like a retro styled Mustang or Charger with modern independent suspension that's as much less good than the rest of the LRF class' handling, as the AMC's fire breathing engine would be better. And I have managed to get some pretty decent NA V8 sounds out of the LFS sound engine; so if I can do it, Scawen or Eric certainly can.
I think a classic american muscle car would work in the LRF class. I don't think we have to be completely true to era, such as with the tires and brakes, they could be modern like I have on my muscle car. Also remember that while the "hard_track" set might handle like a boat, a proper set could tighten up the handling. see below: a classic car with modern brakes, tires, and a tuned suspension much like we could replicate in lfs. Notice it is competitive against the newer WRX.
There are two problems with the car and putting it into lrf. First off, there are the tires, 2nd is the weight and 3rd is the power. Even if you equalize them through power/weight and similar tires it is still impossible to balance the lrf in a way that the whole grid of cars is equal. And if you make it close to the specs of the lrf it would look and feel more like a modern car which would defeat its purpose.
Imho, the only way I can see the muscle car to work in LFS is to give it own class. By doing that you could make the car true to its origins, give it proper amount of power, tires made of cast iron and suspension from horse carriage - great fun . If you start modernizing the car I think it would be better to have a real modern car instead of making some strange mix of the two. Naturally some stuff needs to be added into lfs before anything true vintage can be added and looking from that point of view that "modern vintage car" may be the easier "possible" option, or the true modern car...
Muscle cars are not known for their finesse of driving skills only for speed in a straight line. I guess they could be fun for drag racing but for little else.
Actually, the lack of handling would really only be fun on a FFB wheel, with the lack of power steering. Our MG feels much more "solid" compared to a modern car when driving. I know an MG isn't exactly American Muscle, but it has the same boat-like handling, and is insanely fun
you're looking too far back if you're thinking of cars with no power steering.
Also I disagree with trustnhim, I imagine because of the difficulty, it would take more finesse and skill to handle the car. plus as I said before a proper set with stiffer, lower springs would help the handling immensely. one thing missing from classic muscle of the 60's and early 70's is rebound dampers, which would be interesting to drive.
It's 1978, and it was supposedly modern at the time
Cars back then just felt a lot more "solid" than today's cars, like you were completely in control and there wasn't some computer controlling everything. Which there wasn't
I'd imagine a muscle car would feel much the same, but a lot more powerful. And that'd be some hell of a ride
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(wheel4hummer)
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by wheel4hummer : didnt make much sense tbh
I disagree, i can remember this video (http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=F9xM-UM-vhw) where a Dodge Charger does the same time (even better) than a Gallardo's in a tight AutoX. The Dodge Chargers, as everyone know, aren't famed for their agility, so this makes me think that with an appropriate setup and driver they could fit in a class somewhere.
IMHO, not in the LRF class, just because it would be so similar with the FZ5 (except it would be FR). Heavy-Arse car, exit-oriented, extra-slow-in-->fast out.
It would be very good if a new class was created. But again, check how popular the LX4 is... So either :
1) Make it fit the LX4 class, by making it heavier (1.7tons), but with around 260bhp.
2) Create a class of N/A racing car where the AMC would fit perfectly and add to it two other cars. Could be a retro-style class with some old 300SL for instance.
Oh god, it's hard! That obviously means it's not worth doing, right? The attitudes here totally suck.
I was under the impression that people wanted to actually DRIVE the cars, not have the car drive THEM. It's not supposed to be easy. If you don't like it, you don't need to drive it, but that's definitely no reason not to have it included. The FO8 is hard to drive too, requires a bit of effort and learning but when you get it right (a rare thing for me), it is a fantastic feeling to know you've tamed the beast. The FZ50 (with no TC you f*cking slackers) is the same. If you NEED the ABS and TC and power steering just to drive a car, you have bigger problems to worry about.
Just because you want something that you can pile into corners at 90mph and drive without effort or thinking, doesn't mean that's what everyone else wants too.
I'm no specialist on american muscle cars (or anything car related ) but what was hot, cutting edge and used in the 60s and 70s where those cars were raced was something totally different what you get if you start putting modern tech into those cars.
Personally I'd love to see an "amc" in LFS, with proper power and being true to the cars it's trying to relate to, not some modern muscle car that has independant suspensions, fuel injections, modern gearboxes and racing brakes. Although LFS doesn't really make any different in brakes or fuel injection, all that or just bits of it would really just create a car that too fast to be true to its race car "heritage" just as the road version would be too slow to be true to its origin.
I'm not really saying that any kind of modernization would be bad, I'm just saying that it would make the car some kind of strange "medium-stage" muscle car. Especially if you try to squeeze it into the lrf. I'm not saying I wouldn't want it, it would be a really positive addon for lfs for all I can tell, I'd defenately want it and would really enjoy the challenges what 400bhp on rock hard tires and leaf springs would introduce. But if it needs to be modernized, why not take a modern car instead to begin with, a car that can be modelled exactly how it is without making too many changes to lfs or compromises to make do what you have? A modern car like 'vette or viper?
Nice vid, but that autox course is tiny. Way to small a sample to make a point on.
260HP muscle car? I don't think so... And it wouldn't be similar to the FZ. The FZ is rear engined and actualy has some great chassis characteristics, only made odd by the weight distribution. The engine character could also be very different, e.g. if the amc engine is a relatively low revver.
Hyperactive.. That's pretty much what I've been saying. I think Scavier would know how to best compromise between vintage and modern. If you look upthread you can see I said the same thing - a mixed vintage/modern design would probably be too strange.
I do think the car would best go in the LRF class.
The leaf spring comment was sorta tongue in cheek. The corvettes still use leaf springs. Point being that you can still get the muscle car character almost anywhere in the range of old and new, and better or worse performing mechanical parts of muscle cars.
Personally I'm not too convinced. The cars we have now already manage to be quite strange mix of pure racing machinery and road going luxury.
I'm having a really hard time seeing the amc being possible in lrf. First off, how do you deal with the huge offset of setups of the cars? Secondly are the tires and third is the power/weight-ratio. The car would probably be heavier than the FZ50 and thus needs more power. Looking at how wide and fast the tracks in lfs are you are getting into big trouble when you try to balance it out when one car has 245bhp (RAC) while the amc might have more than the fz50. Even if looking at getting the lrfa (:tilt balanced with all that you might end up in a situation where the amc is seconds faster on some track while being seconds slower on another. Like on Aston GP you'd be 2 secs faster than the FZ50 (4 secs faster than rac) and then on SO4 2 secs slower. While it might work for leagues it would have some bad effect on the normal servers. The current lrf is greatly balanced mostly due to all cars having same tires, an amc having slipperier tires and being considerably heavier is something that is really hard to balance without making it into different car that it is/should be. And if you needed to put road supers on it why not make a fully modern muscle car instead?
I think it would have to be a "vintage" muscle car, simply because the new ones are too close to what we've already got...
Add the muscle car BECAUSE it is so different.
A few people seem to worry about the class... simple solution would be: add another one, or just anything that raced against these cars in RL.
Lads, in the old days Mustangs (I know it's actually a pony car) raced against Mini Coopers and Lotus Elans!
Strange is sure.. All that matters, though, is for the class to provide good racing.
There's a few reasons I see for putting an amc in LRF: -It would increase the density of the performance cloud of the class. I said this before a dozen times already, but the point still stands and is pertinent here: the more cars in a class, the better the chances of a close race each time you add a new car, regardless of performance spread from track to track: 1, 2, 3), meaning closer racing even in single races.. e.g. Where the FZ gets left in the dust by the RAC and LX because of its weight, an amc ought to be nearby. In addition, the more cars in a class, the less the faster cars can get away from the pack on their own. -There's no better fitting class at the moment. The only real problem I see is that the LRF class is still a bit weak compared to the true muscle cars.. So an amc would have to be porked by power or weight. That's a burden, in designing a fun car, but it should be counter-balanced by lesser handling. -And it's better than a whole new class, unless Scavier can manage 2/3 new cars for this specific class at the same time.. Which is a less interesting proposition than e.g. 1 new car for 2/3 classes we already have.
I'm not a car dynamics specialist at all. But it ought to be doable, as far as I can guess, because the whole car is free to be designed to fit the class. That means gear ratios and engine character, specific chassis and suspension design, etc etc. All the quantitative is up to Scavier, and the only criteria is qualitative: that it conform to amc character. I don't have any hard evidence to back up this gut feeling, but although I see it could end up being pretty hairy, I think it's doable. Can you be more specific or give a precise example of why the setup offset problem would be unsolvable?
Do you really think that Scavier couldn't come up with some combination of parts that'd stop it from getting too far off the mean laptimes?
But that's really not so uncommon.. Would it really detract from an LFS amc's character to be a base vintage amc with a few minor upgrades? Because you see those about as often as bone stock ones, in the streets of the usa, and as far as I can tell, it doesn't really kill the 'amc' spirit of the car. What it does dilute is the specific character of such or such model as it was designed by the factory (e.g. the latest Mini had everyone astounded at how balanced the whole design was, but then it was given more power (more than the -S IIRC) by after-market parts, and that dramaticaly screwed up the balance and character), but we're not restricted by that in LFS.. And having those few upgrades would allow for even more balancing possibilities into the LRF class.
The car merely has to have the characteristics that made the AMC movement as a whole. Another thing this implies is that Scavier can actualy free themselves of all the red tape that the modern AMCs had to deal with, re: computerization and other modern manufacturing obligations.. The car could very well be modern and have the 80s (and earlier) unbuffered ass-seat-road feel, as well as a genuine muscle car feel. Maybe Scavier can look at all the old and new muscle cars and do what the manufacturers couldn't or weren't willing to do. Pull a Weismann of sorts. I don't think that's very far fetched at all!
It might not be specificaly a vintage feel, but it would still be completely different from everything else in LFS. I don't think it'd be a loss if it really were impossible to make a truly vintage amc that fit into the LRF class. Even a modern one (which is really just a few digits changed on performance charts, the character would remain) would satisfy all but the most hardcore muscle car fans.
It shouldn't be shoehorned in to any class. If it was to be added, it should be added as-is and then compared after that. If it can be made to fit into an existing class then great, but if it can't then it's no big deal because we have a few cars that are independent anyway.
And people can always add their own mods to intake restrictions and ballast if they want to put it in a lower class. I'm not so fussed about AMC specifically (I prefer old Chevy's) but it's still something I'd like to see, without all the safety features that we take for granted these days
With LFS's drift-friendly tyres, I suspect that any muscle car would also only see widespread use for drifting, despite all the talk in this thread of racing them.
. And it would be very hard to balance the class to work because the muscle car would most probably be the heaviest car with most power. So on one end you have the rac, a light and powerless (
) car and on the other end of the range you have the amc (american muscle car :tilt
