I presently drive with the Logitech WingMan Formula Force GP. I am wondering if the FFB model in LFS or this wheel is my problem.
As it stands, I am not sure if my wheel is up to it. An example would be driving say the RA, on a straight, foot down (already straight remember) and the back end steps out after a short while. Ok, heavy right foot perhaps, but I get nothing from the FFB to warn my grip is about to go. It just happens. Now either it's the same for all LFS'ers, or the FFB on this wheel is not responsive enough.
Which is it?
Having read though the "rig" thread I notice most use the DFP or Momo. For good reason I assume. Is this FFB related?
Indeed it is but I'm looking to know about the "feel", not the fact it is happening.
I'm using the Inferno sets generally and they are pretty good AFAIK.
If the car gets unsettled at full throttle a few meters out of a corner, does your steering "lighten" up first and do you feel it through the FFB? Generally, with this wheel, I do not.
Post a piccy of your FFB settings (from windows and in LFS), then we can tell you what your doing wrong. This will be much easier than us thinking of 100 things it could be.
There is not much to show Tristan; basically everything is at 100% in Windows and in LFS. I have increased everything in Windows to 150% (max) so I wonder if this will make a difference.
Kev that goes some way to answering my question. If you don't feel it either that it's most likely not the wheel. I would rather the steering be "firm" then let up some when the grip goes but maybe LFS does not output FFB this way. That said, you have "never" had the RA step out in a straight line? This could be because you can feel what the car is doing though FFB. I cannot imagine no matter how careful you drive that you have never had the back end kick out when you apply a little too much gas. You maybe caught it before it happened with feedback from the wheel.
Sounds like your problem to me. Try these settings - I get wonderful FFB (with a Momo Racing).
Edit: I normally have windows on 50%, and LFS on 30-50%, but for some reason I'm on 100% in windows. The only effect is that LFS's FFB steps with . and , are less fine.
Running at 150% was interesting. The maxed out tension in the wheel did demonstrate that once the wheels let go, the FFB output changes very little (i.e. the steering was just as tence during the slide as prior to it).
I am begining to think now that LFS FFB output does not give enough feedback to suggest "back off a little, you are loosing grip".
Does for me. But on the high powered cars you have to be very quick to catch it, so maybe you just aren't quick or sensitive enough yet, but it will come. Ignore Kev, he's a noob
Your settings Tristan were undriveable. Hardly any feedback at alll just a "floppy" wheel Every car I have ever driven wants to straighten itself naturally coming out of a turn and to have the centre spring off means to have to turn the wheel yourself to get straight again. I'm not sure about MX5s, but Celicas for sure drive themselves straight out of a gentle turn
I'm almost convinced now the game is not feeding enough back and I am having to compensate by remembering at which parts of the track I should be careful on as opposed to reacting to feedback from the sim, which is wrong, IMO.
Well, mine auto centers, goes lighter and heavier when I lose or have grip, and yet isn't too heavy (100% is unrealistically heavy), so I don't know whats going wrong.
Just because you can't get good FFB doesn't mean LFS's FFB is inherently borked, indeed LFS's FFB is widely regarded as the most superior.
The wheel in a real car auto-centres aswell... It's just a result of the forces acting on the wheels (which are simulated in LFS). So you should turn off the centering spring for sure.
Yes, LFS works out the forces in the steering column in REAL TIME, and then generates the FFB based on that. To get proper LFS FFB, you must not have spring effect, dampers or centering in Windows.
I don't know what I feel, I just feel it. It's like the wheel goes light and tries to go to opposite lock (like a real car) and goes heavier when I apply the right amount of opposite lock.
I can feel oversteer, but I can also feel the sidewalls of the tyres flex it's that sensitive.
Oh, and my avatar was booed off the stage. By Bogey of all people!
I'm still the same as you on that front Kev, no feeling of "steady, i'm about to let go" when the back end slips.
That said, I have not done many laps yet with this new controller config, so maybe there is something I am missing at the moment while I fully adjust to the new FFB.
I think most people's problems are confusing "feel" with wheel "stiffness". Seems to me that most think you need high forcefeedback which results in a very stiff to turn wheel. Then what happens is they either don't feel the differences when the backend goes out or the front understeers or it is so drastic a difference, that it is impossible to catch to correct, ie, you end up fighting the stiffness of the wheel. My overall FF effect is probably very similar to Tristan's, I just come about a little different. I have the wheel settings lower at 60% and in LFS a bit higher, 35-65%. At Tristan's settings, it is possible to run out of adjustment if you wanted to go lower in a particular car. That's why I turned my wheel settings (the drivers in windows) down from 100%. I didn't even recognize that it was Tristan posting that, you changed your avatar! Anyways, my point is that you get MORE feedback by turning your FF DOWN. All the little suttle feedback feelings you get more with less FF strength because at a high strength, you end up just fighting the stiffness of the wheel as it tries to center itself. Did that make any sense?
Try this. Drive for a bit in LFS, then jump in your real car and drive a bit (just not as fast ) and pay attention to how the steering wheel feels compared to LFS. If you run 100/100% in Windows options/LFS, then your real car isn't anywhere near as "stiff" as it is in LFS, is it? My opinion, if you can't drive at a more "on-road" speed in LFS with just steering with you're thumb and forefinger one handed, then your FF is too high. In a real car, I don't need a death grip on the wheel so that it doesn't get ripped from my hands when I am in a turn.
Lol, stealth posting! I get confused when other people change their avatars, so I'm giving them a taste of their own medicine.
Yes, I like a weak force settings, because then the subtleties shine though. With a heavy wheel, it's just on or off, with no warning. One thing I'd like Scawen to add when he's twiddling his thumbs for something to do would be a couple of sliders in LFS for the force-feedback - one to tune the weight of the wheel overall, and the other to increase/decrease the relative strengths within the forces (so you can have a bigger difference between grip and no grip for example, but not worded very well).
And Mike, I normally have windows set to 50% so I have more adjustment in LFS, but for some reason (a lazy reinstall perhaps) it was at 100. I've changed it back to 50 now, so it should be nicer.
Comparing to my RL car is something I do regularly as I am looking for realism in this sim. TBH, there is a world of difference, mainly in the grip levels.
It takes many times more effort to get my real car sideways. I drive it hard (when it's safe) and not once have I had it in such a state that I can often get in with FWD cars in LFS. It's all about feeling. When I'm sat in my RL car, if it wants to let go, there is plenty of warning and of course you feel it through your whole body. However, comparing the grip levels generally, my RL car has much more grip than FWD LFS cars.
If you are loose (oversteer, back end swings out) then the front wheels IRL try to continue to track the direction of travel, so describing the wheel as "going light" isn't really a correct description. You're wheel should kind of automatically countersteer for you. With 50% windows, 35-65% LFS, and my 138% spring strength (NOT centering spring) in windows, my Momo does this exactly when the backend swings out. When the front slides (understeer) as in FWD cars on the throttle in a corner, then the wheel gets light. So in essence, in RWD when you loose the rear, you should feel the wheel do what you want it to, countersteer. When the front slides, you feel/force the wheel do the opposite of what you really WANT to do and you end up turning it more. What you want is to turn less to regain grip, but since the steering wheels (front wheels) slide, the steering wheel (dash wheel) gets light and YOU have to make it steer less to regain rather than it doing it for you in tracking the line.
And wes.brook, I was talking about the feel strictly in the steering wheel up there ^^. Not the grip levels but the stiffness of real life wheel compared to those who run 100% windows/100% LFS force feedback in racing sims. I think disregarding the low speed grip problems that the DEV's know about and will hopefully fix in the next patch, grip levels are probably very realistic. Then again, do you really think you could take T1 at Blackwood in a real life junk hatchback at 50 mph/80 kph? Probably more like 35-40 mph if you could drive Blackwood for real given you'd have the feeling of the "seat of your pants" as input as well. You would probably be on the verge of washing the front end out as well if you drove EXACTLY like you do in LFS. Also for RWD cars, IRL most are designed with an understeer "setup". Could you imagine all the idiots out there on the road if real cars were set up as loose as we make them in LFS with 80% locked rear diff using the throttle to turn the car? The work commute in the mornings would look exactly like a race in LFS with people spun out everywhere. I can see everyone hitting shift-R "restart work commute" and yelling out their windows, "come on guys, restart!"
Tristancliffe - Excellent wheel setup! And it was "wrong" too. I'll need to try changing my drivers to 50% and maybe it'll feel even better.
I've been playing this game for months now and to be honest the best thing for me was always the netcode. Not anymore. After sifting through this forum for a long time over the last few weeks I've found three things which have dramatically improved my experience and my times.
1. Obvious really, DON'T GRIP THE WHEEL TOO HARD! As someone mentioned above, if you can't drive at normal speeds with just a couple of fingers then it's too heavy! Dial it back.
2. BALLS! Squash balls to be precise. Adding a halved squash ball under the brake pedal helped immensely. In fact, the effect is somehow similar to that gained with the wheel gripping tip. I get far superior feedback as regards wheels locking up. Don't underestimate this.
3. Tristan's setup above. I use a DFP and felt I had to have the ffb settings up high to kind of justify having the wheel. Rubbish. Just dial things back and the improvements can be amazing.
The squash ball trick alone knocked a consistent second off all my lap times. It's perhaps worth bearing in mind that I'm not all that good at the best of times. lol
I'm not a racing driver or anything (I wish) but I am a van driver and drive every day, all day. I'm lucky enough to be driving day to day on some of the best roads in Scotland and it's good to be precise. Now I can get that buzz in LFS now, at long last.
Every car I have ever driven wants to straighten itself naturally coming out of a turn and to have the centre spring off means to have to turn the wheel yourself to get straight again. I'm not sure about MX5s, but Celicas for sure drive themselves straight out of a gentle turn 
