Quote from Racer Y :

What I meant was about the "god gene" was an inclination to believe in a God. Not a gene that determines Godhood.

And I guess Messiah was the wrong word to use. I didn't mean that
people with it were "God-like", but more inclined to be viewed by others or believed by others as a prophet or something.

And the only thing I really liked about Dune was Sting got killed.

OK, maybe you oughta sharpen up the sledgehammer so I don't get confused Lots of people have discussed humans' propensity to believe in gods and how that belief arose. My personal view is that it's more an external, cultural/societal sort of pressure than a genetic on/off switch. When we're young we don't know what's good for us, so it's natural to defer to & trust authority figures when it comes to what to eat, what's safe & unsafe, what's the right way to behave and every other aspect of life. Small children are very eager to believe what adults tell them, and don't have strong enough reasoning capacities not to anyway. It's a matter of survival to trust your parents or elders. I think the readiness to believe in gods is related to that unquestioning trust in your elders - if your parents are the ultimate power in your world and then they reveal there's an even higher power watching over the whole universe, that's going to make a very heavy impression on a child's mind (it did on mine, but iirc it wasn't my folks who told me about it). From what I've seen, most religious or formerly religious people are or were that way from childhood - I'd be very interested to see how religious numbers would be affected if parents left religious choices up to their kids when they're old enough to think about such things themselves.

As for prophets or messiahs, I'm not sure you need to find the switch for it in someone's DNA. Some people in this world are very charismatic & persuasive and have large numbers of followers and are even viewed as prophets, but it's not always a good thing - think David Koresh, Benny Hinn, head prophet of the FLDS (uber-Mormons), Reverend Jim Jones, Charles Manson. Prophets & con-men & great politicians all have the same sort of skills, it's just a question of which direction they point them in.

Hey, Sting's alright. I saw The Police earlier this year and that old bastard can still rock

Well I might as well show you my big neo-con brick.

I'm saying that whats happening now is exactly the same as what happened right before WWII. Western Europe (indeed the entire world, including most Americans) is turning a blind eye to what is obviously not a religion of peace and love but one of hate that aspires to be dominant over all other religions and governments. Its called appeasement and it is how Western Europe allowed Hitler to rise to power setting into action the events that led to WWII.

Amazing how we never really learn from history

Mike, violent and oddball splinters of generally tolerant religions always get the majority of the press. Not all Christians (not even a large minority) are similar to those shown in Jesus Camp, but it's still terrifying. I'd be similarly hard-pressed to find someone who'd be willing to bomb an abortion clinic or shoot a doctor in the name of the pro-life cause. And the Westboro Baptist Church thankfully only has dozens of members and not millions.

The same can be said for the militant and intolerant branches of Islam. The proportion may be larger, but the level of industrialization and modernization needs to be taken into account when assessing it.

Quote from flymike91 :

Well I might as well show you my big neo-con brick.

I'm saying that whats happening now is exactly the same as what happened right before WWII. Western Europe (indeed the entire world, including most Americans) is turning a blind eye to what is obviously not a religion of peace and love but one of hate that aspires to be dominant over all other religions and governments. Its called appeasement and it is how Western Europe allowed Hitler to rise to power setting into action the events that led to WWII.

Amazing how we never really learn from history

The draft-dodgers in the White House don't seem to have learned a thing from Vietnam ...

Hitler rode a wave of acute national humiliation which followed Germany's capitulation at the end of WWI. He turned that anger and shame towards extreme nationalism and fuelled it with deeply-rooted anti-semitism which had its roots in the hateful 16th century writings of Martin Luther. Certainly, Hitler was appeased by Western European leaders - they were all doing business with him until September 1939, oblivious or apathetic toward his treatment of Jews and other minorities (so was the US until early 1941, one Prescott Bush doing very well) and making out handsomely.

The point is, Hitler was in control of a revitalised, robust and industrialised country with considerable economic clout and reinvigorated & re-armed military - miraculous, considering the post-WWI hole Germany had to climb out of. The leaders of the world were happy to do business with him until Hitler took it way too far and attacked a peaceful nation under false pretenses.

That's the difference between Hitler's National Socialists and the various groups of jihadists around the world: the jihadists have nothing the rest of the world wants - the only card they can play is threatening anyone who speaks against them. Certainly, political correctness prevents robust dialogue with some parts of the Islamic world because of this (Danish cartoons, anyone?), but an actual invasion or "takeover" is very, vary far from possible. The Nazis were centralised, efficiently organised, well-funded and extremely well-armed with a rock-solid (if utterly repulsive) ideology driving them - they also had a nation united behind them. The jihadists are widespread, disorganised and have nothing but fear to play with. They have their own solid ideology but there are so many schisms and splits in Islam, even among the extremists, it's difficult to imagine them getting united enough to even come close to "taking over the world". It's right to be wary of these people and be on your guard, but comparing them to the Nazi war machine is a false analogy.

Another thing the Nazis did was to catch a lot of people off guard. Much of the world didn't learn about the true evil of the Third Reich until after the war. However, the world knows, right now, that there's a small percentage of the Islamic world which seeks to destroy "The West" and all it stands for.

Quote from Hankstar :

However, the world knows, right now, that there's a small percentage of the Islamic world which seeks to destroy "The West" and all it stands for.

I was with you right up until that point. "All the west stands for", to paraphrase, has different meanings. What the jihadists (and importantly, not at all definable as a % of the Islamic world) perceive as what the west stands for is not what the west thinks it stands for, nor is it what the west thinks the jihadists think the west stands for. Muddy, but absolutely crucial.

We should also separate out the difference between fundamental belief and extremist belief, because it's important to the thread as a whole. For example, a fundamentalist Christian does not believe that all Islamists are the enemy, and neither does a fundamentalist Islamic believe that the western world is the enemy. Fundamentalism in these faiths is not intolerant. Extremism is where you find that trait, and often Extremist Fundamentalism (as a noun, not an adjective).

Quote from flymike91 :

you can't say much to that Because it's true. I'm not making a statement about the French I'm stating my opinions on the "religion of peace"

Then I must assume that you have the very truth of things and so your opinions are truth by default :ices_rofl

Quote from SamH :

I was with you right up until that point. "All the west stands for", to paraphrase, has different meanings. What the jihadists (and importantly, not at all definable as a % of the Islamic world) perceive as what the west stands for is not what the west thinks it stands for, nor is it what the west thinks the jihadists think the west stands for. Muddy, but absolutely crucial.

Of course I meant the jihadists wish to "destroy all they think the West stands for". Continue being with me Samwise, I shall be more explicit in the future.

As for fundamentalism, however, I think that's the very definition of intolerance. Intolerance of dissent, intolerant of criticism - just because some fundamentalists aren't violent extremists (thin line indeed), it doesn't mean they're accepting or tolerant of anything even slightly contrary to or questioning of their beliefs.

Fundamentalism of any flavour states "the scripture says (x) and no deviation from (x) will be tolerated". Extremists (who, by necessity, must be fundamentalists to begin with) simpy back that up with action. While a fundy may attempt to impose their narrow views on others or keep their own on the "right path" of strict scriptural adherence, the extremist will seek to punish those who don't tow the line or bow down. Often, as I said, the line between fundy and fundy extremist is very thin.

Quote from RocksGt :

Then I must assume that you have the very truth of things and so your opinions are truth by default :ices_rofl

Much like those sacred books which state they are the truth; and because they are sacred books which state the truth they must be true - after all, they're sacred books! Ah, circular reasoning. Tasty!

Quote from flymike91 :

Well I might as well show you my big neo-con brick.

I'm saying that whats happening now is exactly the same as what happened right before WWII. Western Europe (indeed the entire world, including most Americans) is turning a blind eye to what is obviously not a religion of peace and love but one of hate that aspires to be dominant over all other religions and governments. Its called appeasement and it is how Western Europe allowed Hitler to rise to power setting into action the events that led to WWII.

Amazing how we never really learn from history

Damn... youre really starting to scare me

Do you actually think that way at the States? I was thinking you were joking or you were a children with absolutely zero knowledge about the external world (you know, there is a entire world outside the States :nod but know you're scaring me...

You have a complete distorted view of Islam. You're confusing Islam as religion with Islam as a way to control people by totallitary and fanatic governments (and "religious" leaders). Reading your posts feels like if you spot a muslim you will 1.- Run away, 2.- Shoot at him (and then praise to your God of love to forgive him for being such an heretic ).

You also have really weird opinions about WWII detonants... What do you mean when talk about "obviously not a religion of peace and love but one of hate that aspires to be dominant over all other religions and governments"? Are you talking about jews at Germany or about Germans and an unknown religion of their own that makes him want to control the earth?

Quoting you: Amazing how we never really learn from history.
Sincerily, not so amazing if our knowledge of history it's more on the fantasy side than on the real and factual side...

Quote from Hankstar :

the jihadists have nothing the rest of the world wants

1.- Oil
2.- Need for weapons so some countries can make lots of money providing those weapons they need.
3.- Strategic territories.

Quote from RocksGt :

1.- Oil
2.- Need for weapons so some countries can make lots of money providing those weapons they need.
3.- Strategic territories.

The most important reasons are:
1) money
2) political value

Take a look at Africa. It has neither so the world pretty much leaves them alone. Naturally big corps have quite a lot power down there so sometimes the african countries get in between but most of the time no one really cares. If Rwanda had oil it would have not gone through the civil war it did. Ot Afghanistan when the US and Soviets were duking it out.

Quote from Hankstar :

The point is, Hitler was in control of a revitalised, robust and industrialised country with considerable economic clout and reinvigorated & re-armed military - miraculous, considering the post-WWI hole Germany had to climb out of.

Some historians claim that in 1938 the German economy was at the brink of collapse. The Nazis saved their butt by invading and looting Czechoslovakia, which was industrialized and prosperous at the time. From there on Hitler continued fleeing forward until Europe lay in ruins.

Quote :

The leaders of the world were happy to do business with him until Hitler took it way too far and attacked a peaceful nation under false pretenses.

Those leaders were more worried about the threat of communism, and considered Hitler the lesser of two evils, or possibly a useful ally. They were a bit slow to change their minds.

(The "red threat" continued to plague conservative minds, which has ensured support for the likes of Suharto, Marcos, and Pinochet. Talking about not learning from history...)

Quote from SamH :

Did THIS not start waving red flags in your face about that AIPAC-sponsored craprag?

The article, by Robert Spencer, contains more than two dozen links, to sources (including a bunch of recognizably "mainstream media," and several others that are unfamilar to me, but seem reputable enough) for the information in the article.

I recognize no basis for your assertion that the article lacks credibility inasmuch as having been published by a website that also publishes the writings of Ann Coulter. The Spencer article is apparently well supported by identified, reputable sources; a description of its author is included at the bottom of the page; there is no reference to Ann Coulter, or AIPAC, anywhere in the article.

The publishing website is apparently owned and operated by David Horowitz, who is a prolific writer, himself, and does not, as far as I know, claim to be a spokesman for any organizations, or ideas, but his own. That the website may receive donations from AIPAC (I'll accept your word that it does), or that it publishes the writings of other authors (including Ann Coulter), has no recognizable relevance to the credibility of the Spencer article.

I can't believe you're that stupid, David. You must be faking it.

Not a very useful reply, Sam.

While you (and I) might disagree with David's point, it's important to debate him on the same terms he debates you and not resort to ad hominem attacks.

Quote from RocksGt :

Do you actually think that way at the States? I was thinking you were joking or you were a children with absolutely zero knowledge about the external world (you know, there is a entire world outside the States :nod but know you're scaring me...

There are certainly a contingent that do think this way, but thankfully they're a (vocal) minority. Most educated Americans are pretty tolerant an enlightened in my experience, despite what the media seems to portray.

Quote :

You also have really weird opinions about WWII detonants... What do you mean when talk about "obviously not a religion of peace and love but one of hate that aspires to be dominant over all other religions and governments"? Are you talking about jews at Germany or about Germans and an unknown religion of their own that makes him want to control the earth?

That part kind of baffled me too. I guess what he's getting at is that the military/extremist arm of the Islamic faith could be used as a cultural rallying point as Nazism was. But the circumstances involved make them significantly different enough that I can't help but see that as baseless fearmongering.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Not a very useful reply, Sam.

Yeah, I know. I sat reading David's response and just couldn't get my head around it. As RocksGt said, it's actually very scary how these extremists think. Or don't think, which is more to the point. Any chance or even hope of peace in this world is being eroded away to nothing by the Bushes, the Horrowitzes and the rest of the american extremist neo-con movement. You say it's a vocal minority, but the fact is that it's in power in the US and it's at odds with the rest of the world. I read statements like David's, and I'm utterly horrified. There is a terrible world war brewing, and it's being fired by these extremist americanists.

Quote from flymike91 :

^^^Jordan this is an educated discussion. Even though people here don't have to agree, we're all showing respect for different viewpoints. leave your worthless and rude comments out of it

There not worthless If he is real,What race would he be? Mixed? White? Black? Asian? Chinese? No one knows:o

Quote from flymike91 :

I don't consider genital mutilation and honor killings to part of a religion of peace, both of which are highly accepted by muslims in the middle east

FYI:
- Genital mutilation of girls is highly accepted among Christians in Egypt and Ethiopia.
- Genital mutilation of boys is highly accepted among Jews and among U.S citizens.
- Honor killings are or were highly accepted in many societies. Well-known examples from (non-Muslim) literature are "Chronicle of a Death Foretold" by Gabriel Garcia Marquez, and "Broken April" by Ismail Kadare.

This all is beside the point, BTW. We were discussing violence between religions, not the cruelty among people of the same faith.

To sum it up: you are drawing irrelevant facts into the discussion, you either fail to see the beam in Christianity's eye or you wrongly attribute cultural phenomena to Islam, and you don't get your facts right.

Quote from flymike91 :

I looked at sources such as the BBC, but they don't have the balls to say who the real perpetrators are, they simply say "frustrated young minorities" are burning down Paris.

So because the BBC sees things differently they "don't have the balls" to tell your version of the truth? In that case I can state that you fail to see things my way because you're simply too damn scared. Can't I?

Quote from wsinda :

Some historians claim that in 1938 the German economy was at the brink of collapse. The Nazis saved their butt by invading and looting Czechoslovakia, which was industrialized and prosperous at the time. From there on Hitler continued fleeing forward until Europe lay in ruins.

recently ive heard that apparently the plans to take over europe had been cooked up way before 33
seemingly he ran out of money producing arms and had to start the invasion a couple of years too soon which is one of the many reasons why the eu isnt called germany

If you choose not to be angry, thats your choice. Personally I would be very angry if a religious group burned down my neighborhood and shot at the police in my town. Perhaps when Islam is the law in France, things will be better for you.

The question I pose to you all is what should we do about (or to) the extremist muslims? Should we simply allow them to regain power in the Middle East? Should we stand by and let them cut off girls' clitoris?

(@ Wsinda: circumcision does not "break" the sexual organs like female clitorectomy does. Almost every guy I know is circumcised, jewish or not)

Should we allow them to kill minority groups and non-muslims within their communities and countries? It seems to me that a lot of you would propose to do nothing about what I see as an immediate threat to all our countries. Should we kill them? Imprison them? Let them go? What would your governments do if there was a 9/11 type of situation in your country? Would you let it go, citing it as a quirky religious thing or pursue the people responsible?
Americans consider extremist Islam to be the enemy and we are actively pursuing them and attempting to eliminate them so that they don't crash more planes or bomb more UK subways. It may be an impossible mission, but at least we're trying to do something about a problem that affects the entire world whilst you criticize from in front of your computer.

Why would things change for wsinda if there was islamic law in France?

Anyway, I'll take this opportunity to ask a question that's been bugging me for some time now: why is there a bigger number of atheists/agnostics on almost every religious discussion on the interwebs I've come across, but in RL™ this group isn't the majority?

The americans are the aggressors. 9/11 was a response to american aggression and assisted oppression, just as the invasion of Iraq and the continuing occupation is the strongest call to arms that the jihadists ever could have wished for. The current american administration and the us's historic foreign policy is entirely responsible for the current instability, almost worldwide.

You cannot eliminate extremist islam, you can only create it, and you are doing an exceptional job. Thanks for risking our lives for your extremist ends.

PS: wsinda isn't from France.

Thanks for putting it that directly Sam, seems a page of subtle hints didn't help too much

Quote from Gil07 :

why is there a bigger number of atheists/agnostics on almost every religious discussion on the interwebs I've come across, but in RL™ this group isn't the majority?

In the UK, agnosticism and atheism is definitely the majority, but since for them religion isn't an even remotely important consideration, it's just not a topic they even think of discussing in normal day-to-day life. The only time it crops up is when we're talking about the loony extremists in the us and the middle-east.

Quote from Gil07 :

Thanks for putting it that directly Sam, seems a page of subtle hints didn't help too much

I felt like throwing a brick at someone

Then it's probably my location... Over here definitely a majority is christian, maybe not really "practicing", but still believing. Even with people my age, which I really would expect to start thinking by themselves, I mean, kids have much more thought freedom these days than in the past.

Most of the agnostics I know will refer to themselves as Christian, but only in reference to their upbringing. They use the term Christian to help someone else pigeon-hole them, but they don't actually carry any beliefs. Some of them send their kids to Sunday school to get the basic ethos of right and wrong, but pull them out before they start getting taught hellfire and damnation or any other unhelpful indoctrination. Most parents dispel the god/jesus delusion for their kids at about the same time that they let Santa go, around here.

My dad is actually a lay preacher and our church is one of the earliest Methodist chapels. It seats about a hundred but these days it has a regular congregation of about 8 people, and none of them are under 70. Still, the building gets used for animal welfare events and karate every thursday, etc, so it's still serving the community. Works for me.