The online racing simulator
Something [does god exist]
(421 posts, started )
Quote from wsinda :Strange that you call it suppression of religion.

My understanding was that this was basically what you were advocating.

Quote from wsinda :If people have a religion that tells them to force their beliefs upon others, should that be allowed? Does freedom of religion mean that you are even free to violate the freedom of others?

The answer depends upon what you mean by "force their beliefs upon others." Violating other adults, by physical force, is not behavior that is permissible, since it is inconsistent with a condition of civilization. Advocating one's ideas, is permissible.

Quote from wsinda :You seem to equate morality with religion.

No; I don't equate them. However, I do recognize that religion may be a source of morality, so that religious education may be an example of moral education.

Quote from wsinda :Atheist parents can teach their children morals without invoking a deity. So can teachers -- at least, the ones at non-religious schools.

And religious parents can teach their children morals, with invoking a deity.

Quote from wsinda :And finallly, the law also provides guidelines for people's behaviour, not based on any supreme being.

The law provides guidelines for people's behavior, based upon its suppositions about the requirements of the society, which suppositions may or may not be based on any supreme being and, in any case, are likely to be based upon axiomatic beliefs.

Quote from wsinda :(What's also nice about the law is that the price for misbehaving is spending time in jail, free from torture, instead of being eternally subjected to excruciating pain.)

What is not nice about the law, is that it is sometimes arrogant, having been intended to act to satisfy people's desires, rather than merely to act as their agency of self-defense (and in either case, acting violently, since that is intrinsically characteristic of law and government).

Quote from wsinda :What does seem reasonable IMHO is to ask that religious people do unto others what has been done unto them: granting freedom to choose one's beliefs. And those "others" includes kids.

As I tried to explain, children are a special case; they have no ability to choose their beliefs, until they have some beliefs to inform the choice. Also, there is of course a difference between asking religious people to do something, and forcibly compelling them to do it.

Quote from wsinda :(In case you might wonder: I'm an atheist, but I do not force my children to become atheists. For instance, when they ask me what Easter is all about, I tell them "Christians believe such-and-such, but I don't." I won't tell them that the story about Jesus dying for our sins is hogwash, which is basically what I believe. My kids should form their own opinion.)

I tend to expect that you teach your children to understand the world, as you understand it, just as other parents - religious or otherwise - generally do. I am pleased that your understanding of the world, includes an understanding that people eventually must make up their own minds; I think that parents generally tend, eventually, to recognize this - some, sooner than others. How they behave in the meanwhile, or after, is best subject to evaluation, with regard to their specific behaviors. I don't suppose that there is any ideal parenting technique that would be justifiably enforcible.
Quote from somasleep :It's that science CANNOT explain these attributes because these attributes are not the domain of science.

just because you want that to be true doesnt make it true

Quote :There is no experiment to measure intentionality or consciousness.

yes there is and a surprising number of animals are conscious

bah why am i doing this anyway you never think about the responses you get and you always ignore questions that test your beliefs... as far as your conduct here is concerned you fail the turing test even more miserably than eliza except you always repeat stuff from the same jargon file instead of repeating user input
Shotglass do you truly feel that science can explain our purpose on earth? X+Y=Man's ultimate goal in the universe?
Also he will never agree with you, but thats not the point. The point is to display both sides of an issue, not convert believers into atheists, which is going well so far.

My quick take on morality: The bible preaches love for all, not to say that that always happens, but can you really expect every atheist parent to teach that same sort of morality? They might teach "love everybody, but not those damn mexicans" Nobody has perfect morals, and therefore cannot teach morality to anyone else. It is assumed that the bible was written by people that were above any twisted view of morality. No commandment says "love thy neighbor, except that one"
Quote from flymike91 :Shotglass do you truly feel that science can explain our purpose on earth? X+Y=Man's ultimate goal in the universe?

And why it's supposed to exists an ultimate goal for human existence in the universe?
we like to hope there is, or else we're all just tiger food.

That question is a fundamental difference between the religious and the non
-
(AndroidXP) DELETED by AndroidXP
Quote from flymike91 :we like to hope there is, or else we're all just tiger food.

That question is a fundamental difference between the religious and the non

We meaning who?
I really don't mind as I'm sure there is not such ultimate goal

And I'm happpy I don't believe such a thing... if it exists that goal for sure I'm not working to achieve it (and that would make me afraid :schwitz

Have you any clue about what goal is that or are you waiting to meet the maker to ask him?
Quote from flymike91 :My quick take on morality: The bible preaches love for all, not to say that that always happens, but can you really expect every atheist parent to teach that same sort of morality? They might teach "love everybody, but not those damn mexicans" Nobody has perfect morals, and therefore cannot teach morality to anyone else. It is assumed that the bible was written by people that were above any twisted view of morality. No commandment says "love thy neighbor, except that one"

Also bible gives you the right to have slaves, enforce sexism and generally stoning people to death for various "filthy" things... Cherry picking the most pleasent and easiest parts of the book is easy and is so nicely done nowadays with religion that it hurts. If there ever was anything real with the religions the current ones are mostly something like children's versions of them. If you want to take a good look what pure religion led country looks like, look at the extreme islam countries, or Europe in the dark ages. Those display in essence what the religions essentially are, a tool to control people. With brute force, fear and terror.

And if there is something that teaches people to treat other people differently based on their color of skin, what they have done or do, religion is the prime example of discrimination and inequality.

Open mindedness and friendlyness, desire to help and develop as humanity are not the values religion teaches.
Quote from flymike91 :My quick take on morality: The bible preaches love for all, not to say that that always happens, but can you really expect every atheist parent to teach that same sort of morality? They might teach "love everybody, but not those damn mexicans" Nobody has perfect morals, and therefore cannot teach morality to anyone else. It is assumed that the bible was written by people that were above any twisted view of morality. No commandment says "love thy neighbor, except that one"

Then maybe someone should tell that to God himself. By all accounts he's going to throw many many billions of us into the pit of Hell for the rest of eternity, for exercising our God given right of 'free will', and choosing not to believe in him.

I'm sorry Mike, but you seem to have a very naive view of the word of God. I'd suggest you do a little bit of research about that particular quote. You may be surprised by what you find !

Oh, and the Bible doesn't preach love for all, not if you read it properly, which is another thing i suggest you do
If teacher was not teaching religion or something like that, then she has been bad teacher that just has tried to use her authority to brainwash students to believe what she believes, which happens to be fairytales and story characters scientifically, afaik.

Imo, religion should be banned from schools or at least made volunteer, as church must be completely separate from government and church should not be allowed to collect taxes as any other corporation or organization is not allowed, church should be just like some car club juridically, nothing more.

I don't deny good things religion and church have done, also I don't like to deny those from people who likes to believe in them, but it is their thing, it should not be my thing if I don't believe in them and equally I should have right to not believe and follow path of my choices without need to anyone getting upset about it.
However there are days in calendar when I can't go to shop, even without religion effect I could, so it is not equal now.

Religion has caused incredible amount of deaths during time, people kill each other because don't believe in same way to same 'god', which I find rather stupid, however some people are still killing each other for religious reasons. Even it has given lot of good, there is so much bad in it too that I find irresponsible that any government has anything to do with it.

But surely, without religion humans would find something else to use excuse of killing each other, so there is no point to ban religion either.

Newest religion seem to be saving planet from global warming, kids are brainwashed in schools to this new religion again, I wonder when new church of green bandwagon will emerge...
Quote from JTbo :
Newest religion seem to be saving planet from global warming, kids are brainwashed in schools to this new religion again, I wonder when new church of green bandwagon will emerge...

Teaching people to look after their environment and using the worlds resourses in a responsible way is one "religeon" I would gladly subscribe to.

Most of the "god" religeons are quite happy for us to burn the planet up, as this will bring forth the day of reckoning.
Quote from Polyracer :Teaching people to look after their environment and using the worlds resourses in a responsible way is one "religeon" I would gladly subscribe to.

Most of the "god" religeons are quite happy for us to burn the planet up, as this will bring forth the day of reckoning.

There is of course not much wrong in green, however way it is done now is ridiculous.

It is ok to change phone every year and generally you are more green if you replace your old and working stuff, yeah, right. Teach kids by these lines and you will get only ecological problems, why not learn to maintain old and working, learn to consume less?

I'm against that religion until they start to use reason, which does not happen, seem to be feeling all the way.
Does an entity exist, which has ultimately created and controls all life, all matter, all space between, within our universe but which perhaps exist on another plane beyond this universe?
No.

There is not even a fraction of doubt in my mind, and no far reaching argument has ever convinced me at all that I'm wrong.

We are what we are. We exist because we are able to exist, like a carrot. A billion things made it possible for a particular carrot to exist today, but if one of those things were different, and the carrot didn't exist, then maybe something exists in its place. Maybe the carrot is in the place of the thing that might otherwise have existed but for that one thing. There is no grand purpose for the carrot. There's no grand purpose for the human race but to exist.
Quote from flymike91 :Shotglass do you truly feel that science can explain our purpose on earth? X+Y=Man's ultimate goal in the universe?

convince me that there is one

Quote :My quick take on morality: The bible preaches love for all, not to say that that always happens, but can you really expect every atheist parent to teach that same sort of morality?

can you expect a fundamentalist christian to do so? or a fundamentalist muslim? or a fundamentalist jew?
most religions have some serious issues when it comes to dealing with infidels and theyre probably supposed to thanks to the roots in tribal culture
Quote from flymike91 :My quick take on morality: The bible preaches love for all, not to say that that always happens, but can you really expect every atheist parent to teach that same sort of morality? They might teach "love everybody, but not those damn mexicans" Nobody has perfect morals, and therefore cannot teach morality to anyone else. It is assumed that the bible was written by people that were above any twisted view of morality. No commandment says "love thy neighbor, except that one"

Explain why in the US there are more christians than than atheists (relative to number in general population) in prisons.
Quote from flymike91 :
My quick take on morality: The bible preaches love for all, not to say that that always happens, but can you really expect every atheist parent to teach that same sort of morality? They might teach "love everybody, but not those damn mexicans" Nobody has perfect morals, and therefore cannot teach morality to anyone else. It is assumed that the bible was written by people that were above any twisted view of morality. No commandment says "love thy neighbor, except that one"

Have you any idea how insulting this is to Atheists like myself?

In todays world you are far more likely as a religeous person to add to this insult by being violent - even to kill me, after all as a Muslim you are told by your God to do exactly this.
Women are treated worse than I treat my pet dog, homsexuals viewed as evil.
Teaching religeon to a child is nothing short of child abuse, their minds are twisted by their own parents schools and preachers long before they have the chance to think for themselfs.

This is not learning - it is flat out brainwashing pure and simple, - thats why it is imperitive that religeous teaching is taught from the crib, because religeon knows that if the child is given a strong belief at an early point in life, then brainwashing goes deeper and is likely to remain there for the life of the person - regardless of any evidence to the contrary that may be put forward.

I have brought my children up as athiest, who in turn have brought my grandchildren up in the same manner.

Like myself they have a love and respect for life - they have no enemies and are loved by everyone that they come into contact with.
Being an Athiest is simple, the rules are - treat everyone as you would like them to treat yourself I'm sure your religeon may say something similar.
The trouble is that religeon makes that conditional.

You see I have as much love and respect for everyone whether they are religeous or Athiest, - given your comments above, it is quite clear that you don't feel the same way.

So who is giving their children better morals?
Quote from duke_toaster :Explain why in the US there are more christians than than atheists (relative to number in general population) in prisons.

Most are "Born Again" after they've been incarcerated.

It's mainly due to the extensive prison ministries, run by a few 'well meaning' christians, but in most cases, publicity seeking TV Evangelists.

Although i guess it can't be a bad thing to have on your prison record when it comes round to probation time and early release.
Quote from David33 :No; I don't equate them. However, I do recognize that religion may be a source of morality, so that religious education may be an example of moral education.

Religious education is a package deal: morality (= rules for your relations with other humans), plus the supernatural stuff (= rules for your relations with a deity). You can teach kids the former without touching the latter, but religions don't want to treat them separately. That forced package deal is what I find objectionable.
Quote :As I tried to explain, children are a special case; they have no ability to choose their beliefs, until they have some beliefs to inform the choice.

I'm not sure if children need help in developing that ability. In any case, I'm pretty sure that it isn't helping them if the first belief you instill in them is the notion that all other beliefs are vile heresies that will send them straight to hell.
Quote :Also, there is of course a difference between asking religious people to do something, and forcibly compelling them to do it.

... just like there is a difference between asking your kids to believe something, and forcibly compelling them to do so.


Quote from somasleep :I know enough about science to know that it is descriptive and not perscriptive. It describes how nature works not why. Why is the domain of metaphysics and religion.

Quote from flymike91 :Shotglass do you truly feel that science can explain our purpose on earth? X+Y=Man's ultimate goal in the universe?

You are both making a bold assumption: that there is a reason and goal for the universe and for human existence.

Then you argue that because there is an intention (which you have just postulated), there must be someone who has that intention, and that someone can only be God. A fine example of circular reasoning.
Quote :It is assumed that the bible was written by people that were above any twisted view of morality. No commandment says "love thy neighbor, except that one"

Then it is also assumed that the chapter about Jericho got in the bible by accident, together with all the other bloodshed. And AFAIK the sixth commandment is about not killing your fellow tribesmen -- slaying foreigners was accepted practice.
Quote from LFSn00b :Well, i got back from school 30 mins ago and i am kinda confused. I am maybe an atheist because i really don't think that God exists, but now i still think he doesn't exist. But our teacher says different :/

Well, she told us four different facts why does he exist. First is the Cosmological provement which doesn't even make sense to me because in cosmological provement thingymabob, "there is one who puts everything moving" and it is God. Then there is the teleological provement. The world is organised with sense or something. This makes no sense to me neither because if the world is organised, why there is drug-addicts and such?

Third one is Ontological thing.
The human has an image of God in his mind(jpeg's so they wont take the whole memory) about the perfect creature. The perfection is God and i am kinda amused in this. I have usually believed that God is a merciful and loving emperor. But he's also selfish? :wtf2:


Then is the moral provement which also does not make sense. Because people do everything because of their confidence(wrong choices of words?) and they can recognise the good and bad things with their confidence. And confidence is ran by God? Makes no sense at all!

I believe in all kinds of Evolution. Because i think the world has been created by a big boom or an accident. I don't think everything is created by God. Well, maybe something is, but i dunno.

I just hope i won't be called the next lerts because that guy was evn weirder than me now But i hope i make sense atleast half of that what i wrote. Because i cannot find the answer anywhere. Maybe it will be solved at the end of the world or when you die?
Don't flame me!

I understand ur situation. I believe in a God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit. And that everything was created by him. Things like cars and video games like LFS were inspired by God to the person or persons who created them. If God controlled us 100%, every1 would go crazy. Of course it is your option to follow God or believe in him. Its all about faith.

God knows what u want to do, but He doesn't control what u do. If you ask. He can sure help control yourself. "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." Matthew 5:5 (not sure on the verse)

God is a Jealous God. Not selfish. He says so in the Bible. Exodus 20:5 tells us that God Himself is a jealous God.

I believe that God is Perfect. ONLY, because he designed people to be perfect. since the fall of man, life expectancy went from almost 1000 years to less than 100 and 120 at max

for your evolution question. National Geographic had a cover story about evolution. titled: Was Charles Darwin Wrong?
and it was a huge cover story that was a lie. supposedly scientists had found out about more scientific evedence. which wasn't true.
I'm not at home currently so i cant give that much info.
If u reply I promise I will comeback to you
Quote from DTrott :I remember reading somewhere that many religious poeple believe in the big bang theory.

The order of creation (in the bible) is fairly accurate to what really happened. The earth and seas then plants then animals and finally humans. The length of day isn't specified in the bible.

the length of day is not clearly specified but it says that the Sabbath is from sunset to sunset
I can see that there is mass confusion with beliefs. through what I believe

1. there are 6000 years in world's history.
2. Darwin was right with evolution but had a wrong idea
3. the big bang theory wasn't created till 200 years after darwin's death.
4. Sabbath was changed to Sunday because of Constantine wanting to combine his forces with the christians.
5. I follow the word of God not the words of man.
It's tempting, real tempting....but no, not with a newb.......not yet....
Quote from Mazz4200 : It's tempting, real tempting....but no, not with a newb.......not yet....

who is the newb
Quote from pinoykid13 :who is the newb

Join date: Feb2008

It's not an insult, just pointing out you're a new face around here.

Welcome
Quote from Mazz4200 :Join date: Feb2008

It's not an insult, just pointing out you're a new face around here.

Welcome

Thanks then

Something [does god exist]
(421 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG