It might (probably not) be good idea to use neural nets to calculate some smaller more specific parts of tire physics. But creating a huge net, which inputs stuff like velocity, position, temperature, etc... and outputs stuff like... contact frictions?, sounds quite silly to me. Probably it is possible, sure, why not, but slower than the current test bench algo.
Also lookup tables can be small part of the solution.. but not the whole thing, this is not NFS where you fetch the friction coefficient from LUT by angle of attack. It doesn't mean that anything can't be acquired from LUT. Maybe some minor stuff, which adds some spice to the soup, but would be too heavy to calculate realtime.
Also lookup tables can be small part of the solution.. but not the whole thing, this is not NFS where you fetch the friction coefficient from LUT by angle of attack. It doesn't mean that anything can't be acquired from LUT. Maybe some minor stuff, which adds some spice to the soup, but would be too heavy to calculate realtime.
I don't know why, but to me LFS physics feels most natural. Somehow, the car behavior is more predictable. It feels that there is rubber between the car and the road. Feels like the tire physics are (already) better than in most of the other sims.
Contact between the road and car feels more... softer.
I've tried and played several other sims.
SimRaceBin, quite arcade to me. Still fun thou.
iRacing, that's what i currently play. It's closest to LFS.
AC, tire contact feels somehow harder. Not harder to drive, but harder compared to softer LFS physics.
Contact between the road and car feels more... softer.
I've tried and played several other sims.
SimRaceBin, quite arcade to me. Still fun thou.
iRacing, that's what i currently play. It's closest to LFS.
AC, tire contact feels somehow harder. Not harder to drive, but harder compared to softer LFS physics.
Want to buy G27 mainboard.
Hello,
My G27 mainboard is dead, USB device not recognized, tried with several PC's. Looked it with oscillosscope, and looks like the processor is broken. Not replying to USB commands it receives from the PC.
I'm looking to buy a G27 mainboard, so if you have broken wheel laying around, please contact me.
And if you happen to have G27 dc motors as well, from the same wheel for example, i'm interested in those as well. But not the motors alone, mainboard have to be in the same package.
My G27 mainboard is dead, USB device not recognized, tried with several PC's. Looked it with oscillosscope, and looks like the processor is broken. Not replying to USB commands it receives from the PC.
I'm looking to buy a G27 mainboard, so if you have broken wheel laying around, please contact me.
And if you happen to have G27 dc motors as well, from the same wheel for example, i'm interested in those as well. But not the motors alone, mainboard have to be in the same package.
omg.. well, first, check my post count. and then check yours..
there is a very thin line between projecting and provoking. i don't think you understand what i mean, but whatever. i'll leave this forum again for a next 2 years or so, and then maybe come back to check the progress. cu mate.
That's what happens to lot of my own hobby projects. If i can't make it exactly the way i want to, to the perfection, i lose my motivation.
That's why artists needs bosses, to force them to do compromises.
Sad this happened to this game, the start was so good. Maybe someday Scawen will get enough motivation to finish the god damn physics. That's the issue, after physics are good enough for him, he can finish the easy&boring stuff very fast.
But ATM not looking too good.
Cmoon, don't mess this up. This is the opportunity of your life. Just do it!
This is ten percent luck, twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure, fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!
Be humble, do whatever it takes. Hire the teamleader, the one with the sharpest whip. The one who forces you to keep working.
You will thank yourself afterwards.
That's why artists needs bosses, to force them to do compromises.
Sad this happened to this game, the start was so good. Maybe someday Scawen will get enough motivation to finish the god damn physics. That's the issue, after physics are good enough for him, he can finish the easy&boring stuff very fast.
But ATM not looking too good.
Cmoon, don't mess this up. This is the opportunity of your life. Just do it!
This is ten percent luck, twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure, fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!
Be humble, do whatever it takes. Hire the teamleader, the one with the sharpest whip. The one who forces you to keep working.
You will thank yourself afterwards.
Last edited by mdmx, .
Laddering system and organized races are the main reasons i switched to iR..
And way more racers online of course, which i believe comes from the latter mostly. Nobody likes anarchy...
And way more racers online of course, which i believe comes from the latter mostly. Nobody likes anarchy...
Resolution doesn't matter. To calculate realistic FOV, you need to know the width of the monitor and distance between your eyes and the monitor.
With realistic FOV, you see the same amount of stuff you would see if you were sitting in a car with a window same size and equally placed than you monitor. Which means, you won't see a s*it with single 21" 16:19.
I have 3 x 22"16:9, and distance is 50cm. My FOV is 160degrees. And that's still way too much, to be totally realistic. I think (don't quite remember for sure) realistic FOV for my setup would be 120degrees, i calculated it once.
That means that realistic setup with single 22" 16:9 watched from 50cm would be 40degrees.
Anyway I think 90degrees is way too much, you'll totally lose the sense of speed. You should set it as low as you possible can live with.
This is LFS forum, ment for LFS fanboys, right?
If you go to hunting forum and whine that all the guns should be illegal and shooting animals is wrong, you are trolling.
If you go to 'anti-hunters' forum saying that hunting and guns are okay, you are trolling.
If you go to religious forum saying that god does not exist, you are trolling.
If you go to drug users forum saying drugs are bad and all the users are losers, you are trolling.
If you go to LFS forum whining that LFS is dead, you are trolling.
See the pattern here? You don't like LFS anymore and are not interested to wait, then stop playing and stop writing into LFS forum.
I haven't played LFS for over a year, probably biggest reason is it's quite hard to find good races anymore. So really i can't see myself as a fanboy. I play another stuff, and if the new shiny tyre physics are someday released, and they are as good as i expect (need to be the best, better than iRacing), i'll most definitely start to play LFS again, IF there are good races.
So i prefer waiting few more years and get the new standard for sim racing tyre physics, than get something i can already get from another sims right now. More cars, more tracks, okay physics and stuff like that. It already exists, in another games, no need to duplicate. I rather get something new.
Makes me think you guys are the fanboys here, disappointed fanboys who can't get over it.
Imagine it like that the rim is trying to rotate, torque is applied, and that the tyre is glued to the surface.
That's very close what happens really, torque is applied into the rim and friction between the tyre and surface converts angular torque into linear torque, which accelerates the car. If you accelerate the gum is flatten in front.
If you brake it's flatten in rear, this time the rim want's to stop and the tyre want's to keep rotating.
So it's accelerating clockwise (or braking counter-clockwise).
That's looking really promising btw. Just finish what you have planned. Comments about perfection and endless 'loop' it causes are quite funny, you really think scawen doesn't already know that?
I'm willing to wait, no matter how long as take, as long as you update graphics and stuff like that to match the current standard when it's finally finished. I can always iRace while doing so..
That's very close what happens really, torque is applied into the rim and friction between the tyre and surface converts angular torque into linear torque, which accelerates the car. If you accelerate the gum is flatten in front.
If you brake it's flatten in rear, this time the rim want's to stop and the tyre want's to keep rotating.
So it's accelerating clockwise (or braking counter-clockwise).
That's looking really promising btw. Just finish what you have planned. Comments about perfection and endless 'loop' it causes are quite funny, you really think scawen doesn't already know that?
I'm willing to wait, no matter how long as take, as long as you update graphics and stuff like that to match the current standard when it's finally finished.
I can always iRace while doing so..
Last edited by mdmx, .
Gfx candies get obsolote quite soon, good tyre physics does not. Maybe that's why they haven't release anything during this time, it gets old before the physics and S3 is done.
That's the way it has to be done with small indie team, you just can't keep it up-to-dated all the time with one programmer while doing major physic update, that's impossible. After the physics are done, you can polish it quite fast, and release immediately before gfx gets outdated again.
LFS isn't that dead it can't be revived if the major update comes. If devs are able to fulfill the expectations, and make near-perfect tyre physics, it's back alive and in a full strength in a matter of days (hours?).
Maybe unconscious and in coma, but not dead.
Last edited by mdmx, .
I agree with you.. I think the main reason is to maintain 'artist freedom'. I've worked on several commercial projects, as well as few 'hobby' projects.
Hobby projects are usually very fun. You can be very creative, polish the stuff you want to polish, test and play with algorithms, optimize, make it closer to a perfection, etc.. The stuff all the 'real', born-to-be programmers love to do.
In large commercial projects it's all about deadlines, fast and efficient solutions, finding the point where it's good enough to make maximum profit. And shit like that. Oh and you must work with all kind of pricks.
Working with good friends is not work at all.LFS seems to be more like hobby than commercial project. It's somewhere between, hobby where you make a bit of money. Scawens dear baby.
Keep up the good work..
There are road driving simulators, which simulate real driving situations and rules. I think you can learn from them, quite much actually. But LFS is not road driving sim.
When driving within speed limits, in traffic, it has almost nothing to do with racing. You don't have to know anything about weight transfers and other essential racing stuff. You are driving so slow and so far away from the limits that there is almost no skills needed for actual handling part.
In public roads safer is better. It's all about anticipation and knowing where other cars are and what they are going to do. And not getting aggressive or angry in any situation. And being smooth and predictable so others can anticipate what you are going to do.
I'll say if you love to drive LFS and love racing you are probably very bad driver for the first years.
At least i was, i crashed twice quite bad, not with other cars but with tree and stone. 2nd time was bad, we were racing with my friend, driving the same road we have driven so many times. It was winter and slippery road. He was right on my tail. 170kmh, tight turn ahead.. Brakes, brakes, brakes... OMG it's slippery. Seat belt broke few of my ribs. Thank god it was on.
And back then i used to think i am very good driver.. Well, i think i was better racer than average john doe, but very bad and risky driver in public roads. There is a big difference.
And this is definitely not a brag, more like warning. Take it ez..
I was lucky, still alive and didn't hurt anyone else either.
EDIT:
This is driving test simulation where you can practice lot of things:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wogpRazlu8
http://www.focusmm.co.uk/shop/ ... pr-1317.html?MMCF_dtstemp
And others exists as well, google will help..
When driving within speed limits, in traffic, it has almost nothing to do with racing. You don't have to know anything about weight transfers and other essential racing stuff. You are driving so slow and so far away from the limits that there is almost no skills needed for actual handling part.
In public roads safer is better. It's all about anticipation and knowing where other cars are and what they are going to do. And not getting aggressive or angry in any situation. And being smooth and predictable so others can anticipate what you are going to do.
I'll say if you love to drive LFS and love racing you are probably very bad driver for the first years.
At least i was, i crashed twice quite bad, not with other cars but with tree and stone. 2nd time was bad, we were racing with my friend, driving the same road we have driven so many times. It was winter and slippery road. He was right on my tail. 170kmh, tight turn ahead.. Brakes, brakes, brakes... OMG it's slippery. Seat belt broke few of my ribs. Thank god it was on.
And back then i used to think i am very good driver.. Well, i think i was better racer than average john doe, but very bad and risky driver in public roads. There is a big difference.
And this is definitely not a brag, more like warning. Take it ez..
I was lucky, still alive and didn't hurt anyone else either.
EDIT:
This is driving test simulation where you can practice lot of things:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wogpRazlu8
http://www.focusmm.co.uk/shop/ ... pr-1317.html?MMCF_dtstemp
And others exists as well, google will help..
Last edited by mdmx, .
Yes more bumps to track surface is needed. Not big ones, but small cracks to tarmac and some worm out grooves, and stuff like that, which makes the car more 'nervous'.
Another thing is tire physics. If i remember correctly, scawen said that there is not enough grip in lfs tyre physics for scirocco ESP to work properly.
Now i'm not sure, but when driving it feels like the problem is how the slip angle affects the grip. 'Circle of attack', or 'Traction Circle' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_forces) is not properly simulated in algorithms. And again, im just guessing.
I have implemented car physics simulation myself, not near as finished as it is in LFS, but enough to know how important part the slip angle is in tyre algorithms, it can make the difference between arcade and simulator. In fact in my simulation i was able to switch between arcade and simulated physics by simply modifying the circle of attack. Just by flattening things out you can make the car very very easy to drift and drive like you do in NFS, as it's very predicable when grip doesn't change depending of the angle.
When that is properly implemented, in next patch i hope, i believe it makes drifting a LOT more difficult. As it's way too smooth and easy now. Also may be very well described as 'neutral' as you did.
It affects the grip when slip angle changes. Basically meaning when you drift, the grip radically changes depending on the angle, making it feel much more unpredictable and harder to control. Like it is IRL. Especially light weight single seaters and slicks.
Another thing is tire physics. If i remember correctly, scawen said that there is not enough grip in lfs tyre physics for scirocco ESP to work properly.
Now i'm not sure, but when driving it feels like the problem is how the slip angle affects the grip. 'Circle of attack', or 'Traction Circle' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_forces) is not properly simulated in algorithms. And again, im just guessing.
I have implemented car physics simulation myself, not near as finished as it is in LFS, but enough to know how important part the slip angle is in tyre algorithms, it can make the difference between arcade and simulator. In fact in my simulation i was able to switch between arcade and simulated physics by simply modifying the circle of attack.
Just by flattening things out you can make the car very very easy to drift and drive like you do in NFS, as it's very predicable when grip doesn't change depending of the angle.When that is properly implemented, in next patch i hope, i believe it makes drifting a LOT more difficult. As it's way too smooth and easy now. Also may be very well described as 'neutral' as you did.
It affects the grip when slip angle changes. Basically meaning when you drift, the grip radically changes depending on the angle, making it feel much more unpredictable and harder to control. Like it is IRL. Especially light weight single seaters and slicks.
Last edited by mdmx, .
I didn't find my name in the list.. Am i not qualified for league or did u just missed my post? 
Usually the actual programming is the easiest part of bug fixing. Much harder part is to get green flag from higher level, so you can start doing it. Byrocracy ruins lot's of good projects.
If fixing the bug isn't worth it, measured in $$$, then it's usually not going to happen. And it highly depends on company and bosses how much value they give to features like that and their reputation among certain group of players.
If you are talking about large packs of friends, it simply may be hard to find room for them. Again, if the ladder system is the only way to go it's very stupid, are you serious that there is no team servers, no clan wars, no stuff like that? I dunno, haven't played MW2 online, single player campaign was great entertainment, good movie.
Err.. who said anything about hobbie programmers?
I've been on sw industry over 10years as a designer/programmer/specialist, and for example implemented clustered MMO gaming server system from scratch. Among other things. Believe me, it's really not a big deal to implement working laddering system. Quite simple math and logic involved.Problem here is, we just can't rev engineer the lfs network protocol and connect our proxy to master server, it's against the law..
And large gaming companies usually hire youngsters directly from school, as they are highly motivated and can do 12h/day with minimum salary.
That's far from being best type of server system, as you can see in LFS. One server which is totally full and lot of people waiting to get in, and a tons of servers which are empty.
Yes i agree, if that's the only way to join, then it's very bad. I didn't mean that.
I personally often want to race with equal skilled people, i don't care who they are or where they come from. If i want to race with friends, then i don't have to join the server with laddering system but use regular one instead.
But friend list sounds good feature, if done properly. But imho it can not totally override the laddering mechanism. At least not with large packs of friends. Few joining together sounds fine, but not like 10. If large group of friends, who are not equally skilled, wants to race together, well, the laddered server is just not the right place for that, imho. That's why it definitely should NOT be the only type of server the game offers, like in MW2.
Anyway, that is small detail, and may be configured by server admin however he likes.
The point was to implement freely configurable laddering server and allow people/teams to host them, which i believe would be popular. What comes to car classes and tracks, i was thinking that all the sub servers uses exactly same cars and track rotation. That way the 'proxy' server can show correct track and cars to lfs lobby, and only drivers are divined to keep the grid getting too huge.. Of course server admin can also decide this, laddering server should allow both ways.
All careless semi-wreckers with low safety ratio goes to their own server, to learn how it feels. Sounds good to me.
So, there are bugs in implementation, or the friends are not equally skilled enough. That doesn't mean the concept is bad, it's just not properly implemented.
This is interesting thread. Not least bcoz, as devs have told us, in the next big update of LFS setupping road cars (std and tbo classes i think?) is limited to tyre pressures and front toe's only, the same things you can adjust IRL without changing any parts.
They are also changing default setups to act more like a standard road car, probably meaning longer and softer springs etc.
Really looking forward it.. i just hate driving the locked-diff sets, which everybody uses, even they are fast. It feels so unnatural. And i'm too lazy to make my own LSD setups..
EDIT:
Ooops, just noticed this thread was from 2006. Anyway, due the incoming setup restrictions this is topical issue again.
They are also changing default setups to act more like a standard road car, probably meaning longer and softer springs etc.
Really looking forward it.. i just hate driving the locked-diff sets, which everybody uses, even they are fast. It feels so unnatural. And i'm too lazy to make my own LSD setups..
EDIT:
Ooops, just noticed this thread was from 2006.
Anyway, due the incoming setup restrictions this is topical issue again.I think that some kind of 'gateway server' would be very nice feature. A dummy server, which shows in server list, and redirects player to the actual server.
This way there can be for example two IHR servers, and only the gateway shows in server list. When player joins, it can check the current licence/PB time/other stuff and decide if it redirects player to server A or B. Can be used for automatic divisioning, a ladder like system like in iRacing or battle.net or so.
That would be very easy to implement... Maybe it could be done even without devs help, as 3rd party tool, but devs approvement is needed of course coz it has to connect to master server. What i mean is that we don't need the devs to upkeep/administrate the ladder, we just need the tools so teams can easily set up laddered multi-server systems.
This way the fast guys and slower guys drivers at different server, racing is more tight and fun. And when you get faster, you are automatically redirected to faster server. Hmm.. sounds good to me, have to check if it can be easily done.
EDIT:
Yes i know that it should be very easy for people to just join different server if one is full. But the thing is, they are not going to. Coz they don't want to join to empty server, and they just don't get it that if few of them join others will follow.
So dividing racers to multiple servers should really be automated procedure. And i believe doing it based on lap time/points/other factor, would hugely improve the online experience, which means more people will play, which means races keeps getting better.
One of the annoying parts of LFS is, that there is not any kind of laddering support. All we need is programmable or very very freely configurable gateway server, and i am sure the teams will do the rest. What i mean is that we don't need developers to set up and admin the global ladder, like in battle.net or iRacing. Instead just give the tools so teams can easily setup laddered multi-server systems.
Last edited by mdmx, .
Meh i used to think i am quite old in this community, born in -79. But you could easily be my dad. Respect
Umm. None of them. Pay developers for license wtf? I just don't see any sense in that.
I would probably buy some WRC car instead, as there is 4months of snow and lot's of gravel roads. As a toy, and maybe to drive some N-series rally
Also would buy S2000 racing car and start to drive the league. Very close battles in there, and driving costs are not too high so can finance it several years with your lottery won. In GTR or F1 lottery won or single oil well is not enough to keep doing it. In LFS XF GTR is that kind of car.
Hmm, like-a-XRT car (rwd tbo with +200hp, and old looking chassis) is not that big deal. All you need is a decent job, and you can easily buy (and build) one.
Older Nissan SX200, Toyota Supra, Sierra Cosworth, Mitsu Starion, etcetc.. You can get and tune one up with less than 6k. I used to own SX200 S13, you can very easily get 300hp out of it. With 10k (car + tuning) it would be +400hp.
So definitely no need for lottery or oil wells there..
Pay developers for license wtf? I just don't see any sense in that.I would probably buy some WRC car instead, as there is 4months of snow and lot's of gravel roads. As a toy, and maybe to drive some N-series rally
Also would buy S2000 racing car and start to drive the league. Very close battles in there, and driving costs are not too high so can finance it several years with your lottery won. In GTR or F1 lottery won or single oil well is not enough to keep doing it.
In LFS XF GTR is that kind of car.Hmm, like-a-XRT car (rwd tbo with +200hp, and old looking chassis) is not that big deal. All you need is a decent job, and you can easily buy (and build) one.
Older Nissan SX200, Toyota Supra, Sierra Cosworth, Mitsu Starion, etcetc.. You can get and tune one up with less than 6k. I used to own SX200 S13, you can very easily get 300hp out of it. With 10k (car + tuning) it would be +400hp.
So definitely no need for lottery or oil wells there..
So could you tell me what another choices there are to buy, to drive pick-up races and occasional events online? Excluding iRacing, renting is not an option, i'm not that serious sim racer.
And rFactor physics are even worse than current beta state of LFS physics.. so..
Not to defend LFS, but more like finding way out of it.
But afaik there simply isn't any option, sad but true. I hope i'm wrong and you can name some serious competitors im not aware of.
Last edited by mdmx, .
Nothing per month, as long as servers are 3rd party.
But I am willing (and going) to pay for S3, and probably even S4, S5, etc.. if they keep polishing the physics and other stuff. And adding new interesting content. Lot's of totally different car and track types out there, which can be added.
But I am willing (and going) to pay for S3, and probably even S4, S5, etc.. if they keep polishing the physics and other stuff. And adding new interesting content. Lot's of totally different car and track types out there, which can be added.
Nope, 'ghost car mod' allowed you to do that, as well as race against ghost car. But it doesn't work anymore, with newer versions of lfs.
So does it mean that your BOV is not connected to intake manifold via vacuum line, and opened by negative pressure, but overpressure in intake tubes instead?
The more boost there is, the more far away it is from being negative pressure. Which means that more loosened BOV controller spring (if connected to manifold, opened by negative pressure) would only 'leak' on full throttle when there is yet not enough pressure and engine is vacuuming negative pressure to pressure tubes/hoses as well?
Can this even happen in boosted engines, negative pressure before flapper? Dunno, happens all the time on 'free breathing' (what's the english term?) engines.
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG