As some of you know I am doing a research project using LFS for my psychology dissertation. The other day after doing the pilot studies my project supervisor who is a car/driving enthusiast himself commented on how "neutral" the cars seemed to handle. I got the impression he was unimpressed by it's physics. He does sprint races and plays GT5 and the likes. He said that the cars in GT5 tend to be a bit of a handful in contrast to LFS. Now I got a faint idea of this myself after purchasing Forza 2 for the Xbox a few weeks ago, the cars seem to move around a lot more and seem unstable at high speeds. Now I have enough experience in LFS to know that understeer and oversteer tendencies are very easy to provoke. Something else which bugged me was Scawen's comments on how the Scirocco handled with the current physics, is this stability issue due to the drifting nature of LFS physics and would this explain a) my supervisors comments and b) one of the reasons why the new tyre physics is being developed?

Id like some objective posts here not fanboi comments please. And im aware of the difference between hard core sims like LFS and things like Forza, but my point still stands.

Thanks,

IMO the big factor is the smoothness of the available tracks.
Cars at speed are unstable only if they run over bumps.

wait untill the new physics come out

...waiting...

Quote from tiagolapa :

IMO the big factor is the smoothness of the available tracks.
Cars at speed are unstable only if they run over bumps.

i think that he is having a very good point here. for example if you try the swing* corner at the strait of the SO tracks, you will find it the most unstable corner in lfs. this is mainly because SO got a update ( 2 years ago) with muck more bumps.

an other point about the not that unstable has got more to do with the setups. because you can setup more in lfs ( for some cars too much, if you ask me ). it is easier to make the car handle better, more stable, better turning.

about GT5, im not sure about GT5 because i dont have a ps3. but about Forza 3, witch i got. it coming closer to LFS ( dont get me wrong here ). With Forza 3 you can setup and tweak your car setup. if you buy the Racing springs ( upgrade ) you will find that you can setup every car much better. in this way you can make it much more stable. (im not sure or GT5 has got sport springs, etc) as you probley know LFS has got at this moment only race springs, in other words Highly adjustable springs / dampers. i believe this is why LFS has got more stable cars.

maybe you know Bob Smith's Street cars setup pack. using this setups you will find the car much more unstable. its only a shame that most of the tracks in lfs are just too flat and doest have so many bumps...

(i hope this doesn't sounds like a fan boy post. at least i didn't try too)

Swing Corner: Corner 1 on this picture http://upload.lfsmanual.net/im ... /f7/SO1.jpg/300px-SO1.jpg

I know that corner well, I try to keep the inside then drift right out as not to destabalise the car too much. But even still, when it does become 'skittish' it still has the smooth drifting feel to it compared to the more left-right-left-right type weight transfer you get in say Forza 2.

In laymans terms and thinking aloud I think the difference would be having LFS able to break traction more sharply and abruptly as well as be able to regain it suddenly instead of the slow motion type lose traction go into a drift then slowly back into traction again. If im making any sense.

Quote from Dac :

I know that corner well, I try to keep the inside then drift right out as not to destabalise the car too much. But even still, when it does become 'skittish' it still has the smooth drifting feel to it compared to the more left-right-left-right type weight transfer you get in say Forza 2.

In laymans terms and thinking aloud I think the difference would be having LFS able to break traction more sharply and abruptly as well as be able to regain it suddenly instead of the slow motion type lose traction go into a drift then slowly back into traction again. If im making any sense.

It makes sense, and has been discussed a lot before. No simulation is perfect. It also makes a difference by what he means as being a "handful". If the GT5 cars are unstable at high speed, then what cars are we talking about here? Monstrously powerful 1960's vintage cars that don't have any downforce? Well, yeah, they'd be unstable. Also, not seeing GT5, I can't say much, but a lot of console games over do the gyrations of the car to give the impression of more speed. In other words, everything is bouncing around on the screen and the user thinks that makes things more unstable.

LFS does seem to have issues with how the tires break loose and how they regain grip, sometimes. It is dependent on the situation and the setup used.

You'll find everybody has an opinion on how accurate and realistic a particular sim is. It mostly depends on their experience with games and what they think is important. A lot of people say Forza is more realistic than LFS simply because the graphics look better. It's what they deem important.

Quote from Hallen :

It makes sense, and has been discussed a lot before. No simulation is perfect. It also makes a difference by what he means as being a "handful". If the GT5 cars are unstable at high speed, then what cars are we talking about here? Monstrously powerful 1960's vintage cars that don't have any downforce? Well, yeah, they'd be unstable. Also, not seeing GT5, I can't say much, but a lot of console games over do the gyrations of the car to give the impression of more speed. In other words, everything is bouncing around on the screen and the user thinks that makes things more unstable.

LFS does seem to have issues with how the tires break loose and how they regain grip, sometimes. It is dependent on the situation and the setup used.

You'll find everybody has an opinion on how accurate and realistic a particular sim is. It mostly depends on their experience with games and what they think is important. A lot of people say Forza is more realistic than LFS simply because the graphics look better. It's what they deem important.

TBH I think the biggest limiting factor with all sims is the connection to wheel, pedals etc. It just doesn't feel the same.

I think the enviroment and hardware make a big influance on how a newcomer to LFS perceves its first impression.

If you put someone in a race seat with mid to high volume sounds, a 24" display, with a good quality and well set up, FF wheel (like the games conventions setups) and let them drive an RAC or LX6 round one of the longer tracks at South city, then they will report a different experiance to someone who experiances LFS for the first time on an 800x600 old laptop using very quiet and low quality sounds, using the KB or mouse, driving XFG.

additionally its not just the screen size and higher visual quality, but the ability to race against players of similar skill levels that will effect the overall feeling of enjoyment from the "gameplay" if you did an experiment where you let a subject race 3 races (online in a locked server with experianced oponants, at any given track/car combo)

The first race, you and the "oponants" drive very badly and let the subject win.
The second race you all drive at race pace and let the subject lose (unless subject is very good)
The third race you allow the subject to pass and be passed making sure the oponants keep the action close no matter how fast or slow the subject drives, and allow him to finish mid pack or top 10.

I would expect the 3rd race to score a much higher feedback in terms of addictive gameplay for the majority of "mainstream" subjects, maybe the gearheads would prefer race 1

IMO its not just the driving experance, more the close racing aspect that makes the online gameplay so adictive.

SD.

Quote from SparkyDave :

IMO its not just the driving experance, more the close racing aspect that makes the online gameplay so adictive.

I couldn't agree more - I remember racing with you in the RB4 around SO a few years ago, that was some of the best racing I had done in LFS.

I think whats most important is the feeling of being in the 'zone' and not being aware of the fact that you're playing a sim, this usally only happens to me when I'm concentrating and battling with others on track.

Quote from boscho :

wait untill the new physics come out

lol

Yes more bumps to track surface is needed. Not big ones, but small cracks to tarmac and some worm out grooves, and stuff like that, which makes the car more 'nervous'.

Another thing is tire physics. If i remember correctly, scawen said that there is not enough grip in lfs tyre physics for scirocco ESP to work properly.

Now i'm not sure, but when driving it feels like the problem is how the slip angle affects the grip. 'Circle of attack', or 'Traction Circle' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_forces) is not properly simulated in algorithms. And again, im just guessing.

I have implemented car physics simulation myself, not near as finished as it is in LFS, but enough to know how important part the slip angle is in tyre algorithms, it can make the difference between arcade and simulator. In fact in my simulation i was able to switch between arcade and simulated physics by simply modifying the circle of attack. Just by flattening things out you can make the car very very easy to drift and drive like you do in NFS, as it's very predicable when grip doesn't change depending of the angle.

When that is properly implemented, in next patch i hope, i believe it makes drifting a LOT more difficult. As it's way too smooth and easy now. Also may be very well described as 'neutral' as you did.

It affects the grip when slip angle changes. Basically meaning when you drift, the grip radically changes depending on the angle, making it feel much more unpredictable and harder to control. Like it is IRL. Especially light weight single seaters and slicks.

Quote from mdmx :

It affects the grip when slip angle changes. Basically meaning when you drift, the grip radically changes depending on the angle, making it feel much more unpredictable and harder to control. Like it is IRL. Especially light weight single seaters and slicks.

Hence why too wide a tyre can actually reduce handling performance

The tracks may be too flat, but before the tire physics get updated we dont need any improvement on that part.

IMO the tires in LFS have too little grip "when grippin' " (at least at low speeds) and too much grip when traction is lost (drifting), this combined makes the somewhat gripless feel in LFS. I miss this snappy feeling (my car is very similar to the UF1, and its snappy as hell if drivin at the limit , the UF just understeers everywhere)