Indeed. And a lot of us won't use a monitor for sims now we've experienced it. Apart from the 'being in the car' aspect rather than watching, the sense of speed on a monitor is so distorted as you slow down it jars.
xxxxEdited out a bit about 3D mirrors not being in the other sims: they are there, but just don't look as convincing.xxx
The only negative about LFS' VR is that the "screen door effect" always adds a kind of aggregate greyness to the scene, and LFS does look rather grey to start with - which normally looks quite serious and professional IMO . Certainly compared with rF2, which looks like a 4 year-old's colouring book. But then ISI's graphics guy did stamp his feet and state that although he'd never tried VR, he knew he didn't want it, so there! LOL So that's not really a surprise.
One physics question that has always intrigued me is how Scawen managed to make the cars seem like the front tyres are actually connected to the track whereas In rF1, rF2, iRacing, AC, pCars, they don't. E.g. when the rear slides in other sims, it feels like the front becomes disconnected too and you're guessing what to do with the steering. iRacing is probably the worst. It's particularly visible in a tankslapper, where in other sims, cars seem to rotate about the centre instead of the rear swinging back around an axis at the front of the car. Externally, it looks like the front tyres are going one way and rears the other, Iike it's on ice. Got one in IRacing the other day, and watching the replay onboard with the Rift it looked like I was sitting in the middle of a merry-go-round. Can't be right. I'd be interested in Scawen's opinion on this difference.
Last edited by Postman Pat, .
The problem with samples is they can sound like shit at times, particularly if you're trying to be awkward. 
The problem with 'synthetic' is that it always sounds like shit. It never sounds like the real thing.
The problem with 'synthetic' is that it always sounds like shit. It never sounds like the real thing.
I can't really tell much from that video I'm afraid.
I'd say this is about the best I've heard in a sim. Not inside the cockpit though..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J26nFVmCe_A
I'd say this is about the best I've heard in a sim. Not inside the cockpit though..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J26nFVmCe_A
I'll be happy to be wrong about the graphics. 
No one will persuade me about the Elise engine sound though. That's too synthetic and is annoying me already in the tech pv videos. I don't think I could put up with that for long. I need to know this will be improved before I get a new 'puter basically for A.C. If it sounded like present rf2 ISI content I'd be satisfied.
No one will persuade me about the Elise engine sound though. That's too synthetic and is annoying me already in the tech pv videos. I don't think I could put up with that for long. I need to know this will be improved before I get a new 'puter basically for A.C. If it sounded like present rf2 ISI content I'd be satisfied.
Is anyone a bit disappointed with A.C's graphics? (Just going by screen shots and Youtube - I haven't a 'puter for it yet). Maybe I was expecting too much, but a lot of the track colour looks a bit pastel-like and with a lot of grey. Not as stark as iRacing. But the cars also, a bit plasticky looking. No?
And I'm praying they improve the sound a lot. That's so important.
And I'm praying they improve the sound a lot. That's so important.
Yes, I suppose if you can't get your wheel in the right place, it might look odd. That's the key though. If you can get your seat height, wheel position,FOV, monitor height, and horizon all right, it looks and feels a lot more like you're sitting inside the car.
OTOH, one might argue that people can't have it both ways by saying they can ignore a wheel and/or hands being there when driving, but not ignore them *not* being there.
Out of interest, why would you want to see 2 wheels and someone else's arms? Feels like I'm not really driving.
It makes a difference to frame rate in iRacing. Pretty sure in everything else too.
It makes a difference to frame rate in iRacing. Pretty sure in everything else too.
I'd be crazy not to be able to turn off the virtual wheel. Bad for immersion (imo) and frame rate. Hate having a virtual wheel there.
Agreed. But I think for a lot of people it's just as much being able to measure yourself against other drivers (stop giggling at the back!). At anytime in iRacing you can see the fastest Q, practice and race paces of the best drivers in a track/car combo currently run and know where you stand. Since sim racers are generally over-competitive head cases, this is important. We are told that a large proportion of 'sim racers' don't even race on-line. Even in iRacing, many people only do 2 races a week in a series because of the championship points system + pressure and need to practice to maintain iRating. In iRacing you've a guaranteed race every hour/2hours in Mx-5 or skip. But there aren't enough on-line sim racers to find that in every car/track you might want even with iRacing's large captive membership.
I'm also thinking there might be an issue for any sim introducing environmental conditions e.g. weather/grip levels; it no longer becomes possible to compare hotlap times meaningfully. So an element of interest/motivation is removed for the off-line drivers. I'd suggest a "hotlap mode" which has a fixed starting environment and number of laps say 10 - so you can still lay down some rubber. But otherwise the same conditions for everyone.
A good AI, and ability for modders to create some sort of competitive system with rules/penalties would be the best we can hope for I suppose. With a driving aids option to bring in the arcade boys (and money) in addition to a hard core sim physics, I think AC could really be a winner. rFactor2 was more hope than expectation for me and ultimately disappointed; it's got too much wrong for me at this stage - like iRacing - to think the creators will ever get it right. But I really think AC could be it...what I've been waiting for. :goodvibes
They've got to sort out the sounds though post NetKarPro. We can't still have that canned sounding skid noise, and somebody kicking a dustbin if you go off track. The latter I can still hear.
Every official iRacing vid I've seen has undrivable wheel lag visible, but I get none really in practice. It's just a function of fps on my system. Turn all the graphics on max, fps goes down, and there's lag. FPS at 100+, and there's not much, at 180 there's none to speak of. At demos they obviously want games to look pretty. My guess. If there's vsyinc on, then it'll always be dreadful in my experience.
The snap of the drift car looked near perfect to me. Best I've seen.
The snap of the drift car looked near perfect to me. Best I've seen.
The 2-foot mash (brake + throttle) to save spins in RWD cars works in every sim as long as you can lock the front wheels quickly and keep the rear wheels driving. But a bit less well in higher grip ones like LFS and nekPro. The person demonstrating it in an Elise in the video in the Ben Cornett's thread is Andy Walsh, who is a racing driver (contrary to what was implied) and a former F1 test driver (Benetton). Where the thread is right is the unnatural extent in which cars tend to snap straight again in the sims. Which I'm guessing has something to do with over-the-limit grip.
I spun out in the NTM Mustang yesterday at Okayama in the slow up-hill left-hander (about 3 from the end). I could have stopped it possibly just countersteering, but couldn't be bothered. Whilst watching the replay, another car came up about 10secs later and did exactly the same thing. When I recently drove the Mustang (which I don't do much) at Watkins, my race pace was equivilent to about 3rd fastest overal Quali time. You have to ask how someone who can drive after all, can spin out at 30-40 mph with a completely steady throttle just because they weren't concentrating hard enough. If that were real, anyone on a country lane in the UK at 60mph looking out the window/talking etc. would probably die.
Low speed grip and/or when breaking traction must be wrong in iRacing, and the NTM hasn't helped much. It also doesn't help that there's no real qualitative difference (only quantitative) between grip and sliding - one just keeps rotating and you wonder why on that occasion. A member of Team Redline (Hutto's team) summed it up well by saying he couldn't drive by instinct in iRacing. Just imagine what it'd be like now if conditions were realistically changing all the time.
That said, Tim Wheatley, formally of iRacing and now working for ISI, said the maintenance contract for the iRacing scanner alone is $50,000/yr, and the subscription service is the only way you could afford to do what they're doing. So with that an updates every 3 months it's going to cost money. That's what it's got: organised racing and laser scanned tracks.
I think rF2 is by far the best tyre model at the moment. But the collision physics and the general way the cars look/move from the outside - appears really arcade compared to iRacing IMO - ignoring the occasional glitch to be seen all over youtube courtesy of the anti-fan boys.
Oh well, roll on Assetto Corsa...
I spun out in the NTM Mustang yesterday at Okayama in the slow up-hill left-hander (about 3 from the end). I could have stopped it possibly just countersteering, but couldn't be bothered. Whilst watching the replay, another car came up about 10secs later and did exactly the same thing. When I recently drove the Mustang (which I don't do much) at Watkins, my race pace was equivilent to about 3rd fastest overal Quali time. You have to ask how someone who can drive after all, can spin out at 30-40 mph with a completely steady throttle just because they weren't concentrating hard enough. If that were real, anyone on a country lane in the UK at 60mph looking out the window/talking etc. would probably die.
Low speed grip and/or when breaking traction must be wrong in iRacing, and the NTM hasn't helped much. It also doesn't help that there's no real qualitative difference (only quantitative) between grip and sliding - one just keeps rotating and you wonder why on that occasion. A member of Team Redline (Hutto's team) summed it up well by saying he couldn't drive by instinct in iRacing. Just imagine what it'd be like now if conditions were realistically changing all the time.
That said, Tim Wheatley, formally of iRacing and now working for ISI, said the maintenance contract for the iRacing scanner alone is $50,000/yr, and the subscription service is the only way you could afford to do what they're doing. So with that an updates every 3 months it's going to cost money. That's what it's got: organised racing and laser scanned tracks.
I think rF2 is by far the best tyre model at the moment. But the collision physics and the general way the cars look/move from the outside - appears really arcade compared to iRacing IMO - ignoring the occasional glitch to be seen all over youtube courtesy of the anti-fan boys.
Oh well, roll on Assetto Corsa...
They could just start by adopting a definition of "intentional" that might be recognized by anyone else on the planet. Otherwise, the protest system is a cop-out as cynical as some of the driving.
If you ask me the Caddy is vastly overpriced.
It's got that revolting synthetic iRacing engine sound, slides around at low speed, and it'd be quicker to send a postcard to the front wheels than turn the steering wheel.
Why do they produce these diabolical baseline setups? Do they want everyone to think the cars are even worse than they are, or do they think that's how a car should handle? Don't know what's more worrying.
That said, not sure yet, but I've a suspicion that the 'trailing brake oversteer' thing I brought up before (where adding or removing brake during entry seems to have the opposite effect that I'd expect) might have been improved upon. But I think there could be some odd brake bias issues now to complicate understanding what's happening.
But regarding iRacing grip generally: if you drive from the grass to the road at say 25 mph with constant throttle and a good amount of steering lock on, then the disturbance of the grass/road/curb transition will often result in the car spinning through as much as 180 degrees. That's completely unnatural at that kind of speed, and to me indicates the tyres still don't know how to regain grip properly. You'll notice it's the bumpy grass areas that break traction when your on them that have you sliding around in a weird way too. Not regaining grip is so fundamental to handling that it makes a nonsense of all these other temp and pressure considerations and whatnot.
Some 'tiny' improvements in some engine sounds though e.g. off throttle.
It's got that revolting synthetic iRacing engine sound, slides around at low speed, and it'd be quicker to send a postcard to the front wheels than turn the steering wheel.
Why do they produce these diabolical baseline setups? Do they want everyone to think the cars are even worse than they are, or do they think that's how a car should handle? Don't know what's more worrying.
That said, not sure yet, but I've a suspicion that the 'trailing brake oversteer' thing I brought up before (where adding or removing brake during entry seems to have the opposite effect that I'd expect) might have been improved upon. But I think there could be some odd brake bias issues now to complicate understanding what's happening.
But regarding iRacing grip generally: if you drive from the grass to the road at say 25 mph with constant throttle and a good amount of steering lock on, then the disturbance of the grass/road/curb transition will often result in the car spinning through as much as 180 degrees. That's completely unnatural at that kind of speed, and to me indicates the tyres still don't know how to regain grip properly. You'll notice it's the bumpy grass areas that break traction when your on them that have you sliding around in a weird way too. Not regaining grip is so fundamental to handling that it makes a nonsense of all these other temp and pressure considerations and whatnot.
Some 'tiny' improvements in some engine sounds though e.g. off throttle.
It's amazing the extent to which people drive above their abilities and of those around them. I sometimes join in ghost/spectator mode and see cars who're 1-2 seconds a lap slower than me driving on the bumper of the car in front where I wouldn't even when I'm a ghost (trying to drive as I would). They don't notice anything that's happening e.g. the car in front is getting loose or the one in front of that is actually crashing. Ego and stupidity. They can't drive, a lot of them, but don't know it and are trying to get any advantage by being super aggressive - out braking, diving etc., and always assuming everyone around them is perfect. And if you are looking at what's in front, you're likely to be rear ended by one of them behind you.
The Nim system is obviously a joke; one person regulating everything. If you spectated a day of races and protested every example of verbal abuse - just the first few laps would do! - Nim would still be processing that in a week's time. I always think of that when the fanboys say 'did you protest it? - well if not it's all you're fault then' - when someone complains about the driving.
The Nim system is obviously a joke; one person regulating everything. If you spectated a day of races and protested every example of verbal abuse - just the first few laps would do! - Nim would still be processing that in a week's time. I always think of that when the fanboys say 'did you protest it? - well if not it's all you're fault then' - when someone complains about the driving.
If it was "absolute communism" it'd be based on common ownership. The one thing you don't have in iRacing is 'ownership" of anything! LOL
Totalitarianism (which can be left or right) is what you're on about. Which it isn't, btw.
Rappa Z: Ignore me, some of us have a strange sense of humour over this side of the pond...
Totalitarianism (which can be left or right) is what you're on about. Which it isn't, btw.
Rappa Z: Ignore me, some of us have a strange sense of humour over this side of the pond...
I agree they seem to think they can get away with pushing out sub- standard content.
I can't go along with the 'Communist dictatorship' description though. Yes, there are some terrible fanboys who'll gang up on anyone attacking the physics, but there are some right ones on the ISI forums too. iRacing do allow big threads on rFactor2, Kunos' stuff, pCARS etc. with people openly advocating the competition and talking of superior tyre models elsewhere. In fact 'mr Kunos' turned up to clarify some issues about pricing on his sim, in one. They could decide not to allow any of that.
I don't know what anttt69 said there - did he mention DaveK's crossdressing proclivities perchance? I merely PM'd him, mentioned the photos, and he kindly sent me go-faster plugin to keep me quiet. Oops! Now I've gone and done it. Oh well, never mind....
I can't go along with the 'Communist dictatorship' description though. Yes, there are some terrible fanboys who'll gang up on anyone attacking the physics, but there are some right ones on the ISI forums too. iRacing do allow big threads on rFactor2, Kunos' stuff, pCARS etc. with people openly advocating the competition and talking of superior tyre models elsewhere. In fact 'mr Kunos' turned up to clarify some issues about pricing on his sim, in one. They could decide not to allow any of that.
I don't know what anttt69 said there - did he mention DaveK's crossdressing proclivities perchance? I merely PM'd him, mentioned the photos, and he kindly sent me go-faster plugin to keep me quiet.
Oops! Now I've gone and done it. Oh well, never mind....Tend to agree. It's a cliche that anyone can get close to top RL racers' times, but it's that little extra that's so hard and separates the talented ones from the rest. A lot of that is about being able to feel subtle changes in the car that even the drivers themselves can't consciously describe. I've heard top instructors talking about sneaking info into students unconscious minds when their guard is down.Really, you have as much chance of learning how to drive on the limit in RL from sitting infront of a computer as you have learning to balance your body on a tight- rope by playing with a computer animation thereof. Totally different thing. Sims can be useful training, but aren't going to give you the stuff where real talent comes to bare.
Also, it should be bloody obvious the sim is wrong for the following reasons:
A real racer turns up at a track he's not been to for a year (or ever). It has changing grip levels due to rubbering in, heat, weather etc. but within half an hour he's driving on the limit safely. And top drivers are doing lap records.
Conversely, in iRacing it's a static environment, people do thousands more laps with a lot of trial and error. Yet they'll spin off at speeds that'd embarrass a novice in real life. Look for example at the WR Radical laps around the Ring. A bumpy cambered surface but they're sawing at the wheel without concern. If it were like iRacing you'd die driving like that as it requires such a precise and 'predictive' driving style (e.g. you have to learn to pre-emptively counter-steer or balance the throttle because last time it spat you off the track into the wall somewhere for no apparent reason). There's not way you could be bouncing around in a noisy, smelly environment that's a real race car yet maintain such precise measured inputs. Not to mention half of iRacers have to drive into bends with one foot on the throttle or they'll spin out anyway! If the inputs are so different - and they plainly are - then it's not simulating very well.
Good point. I was a conscientious objector about something in LFS so long ago now I can't remember what it was - engine sounds or transmission maybe. Transmissions OK I think now probably. I'd have to search my posts to find out.
Then waiting for the update it didn't seem worth it 'till then....I just had another drive of NkPro (ahem), and after rF2, it seems too easy holding slides. Can't be that easy in RL. Even top drifters are more busy with the steering doing it. And iRacing feels bad now. I think rF2 has the best tyre model out. I never got on with rF1 btw.
No, there's always been elements of LFS I approved of greatly. But to me (I think this is part of it) it seems more like a hobby for Scawen - an intellectual puzzle of solving the tyres that's gone on too long now from the point of customers. You've got to have some vague time frame, and then just say it is what it is. And work on the next iteration. Unless he's getting no where and going in circles. Either way something needs to happen. And no other track content is laughable when you think what modders have put out for free in this time.
I like the feeling of rfactor2. It's not all slidey like iRacing, but has a bit more of a dangerous edge on the limit than LFS. Which would seem to me to be what's right. Overall, I think my favourite sim feel to date. But the crash physics and even external motion of the cars looks poor and arcade-like compared with iRacing or LFS generally. Which is odd. How can it seem right driving, but look wrong on the outside?
I also think the graphics are ugly, like a comic illustration. LFS and Simbim stuff don't look like that. You can see it in the menus too. It's an aesthetic thing I suppose. Hopefully modders can put that right. But it's hardly a big step forward for graphics.
Cockpit sound is great IMO, external sounds of other cars are shite- like a bunch of munchkins imitating a motorbike.
I also think the graphics are ugly, like a comic illustration. LFS and Simbim stuff don't look like that. You can see it in the menus too. It's an aesthetic thing I suppose. Hopefully modders can put that right. But it's hardly a big step forward for graphics.
Cockpit sound is great IMO, external sounds of other cars are shite- like a bunch of munchkins imitating a motorbike.
It's not as bad as that surely? I don' think it's that much different in that respect. If anything slightly more controllable than the first NTM. The problem has always been to me, and still is, that it doesn't communicate a qualitative difference between just over the limit and that point of no return. So you think you're doing the same thing as the last x number of laps and wonder why this time countersteering didn't do anything and you kept rotating. The snap when (if) it regains grip in a slide is much more severe though now.
Well yes, unless you've got at least 3x24" screens, you can't see a f***ing thing through most corners! And then there's the fact, according to research I've seen, that you need a variable FOV to accurately represent speed and distance in a 2D sim environment: high FOV gives more accurate low speed representation (optical flow), and low FOV gives better high speed representation when tested on subjects who can accurately judge and produce speed in real cars. That's one thing - ever noticed you've spun out at around 10mph (what??) and then realised computer says it was something like 30mph?
Maybe I'm missing your point. But how can you check how that corresponds with a real car which it has a driver in it making corrections? Obviously there are extremes of behaviour. But real racing drivers (champions) and instructors - I can think of a couple who've also sim raced at a very high level - have said that in RL they make continuous adjustments with their inputs based on feeling the balance and accelerations of the car, that these are completely instinctual and unconscious, and that the eyes wouldn't be fast enough to do this. By the time you see most of it, it's too late. And the fastest drivers, are the ones who can feel and interpret this stuff best.
You can do fast lap in the iRacing skip and not experience any of this sliding and snap-back horribleness as long as you detect the yaw early enough so no sliding. But there are places and situations where it's visually difficult to spot e.g. certain corners where everything is already rotating fast and there's bumps and humps and cambers etc. to throw into the mental calculation. If you could physically feel the changes of balance and rotation, even I a non-RL racing driver, can see it's obvious it'd be completely different.
It could be (to play devil's advocate) that the over the limit behaviour is actually too manageable, and made so in sims for this reason. We take it for granted that that's the way to drive and live there all the time, moaning about difficulties and non-continuities. Whereas, in RL, you'd start crapping yourself the moment it started to feel such situations where about to develop, and correct them fast. I don't know. I do think the cars drive wrong, but I'm just saying most of us are criticising lack of similarity with what we haven't experienced.
I just assumed DK was 'the physics person' and if the cars do wrong stuff like this, then it's his fault.
When they test on these rigs e.g. CALSPAN, do they get data for over the limit behaviour/sliding, and also that takes into account how quickly or slowly that situation develops etc. So many possible variables, I do wonder about data.
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