Quote from diablo21 :

AFAIK he has already beaten a few WR's with autoclutch

And I respect him for that! That's the way to go (off my black list)

@glenn: can't make it more clear to you, sinbad did too... the macro is an EXTERNAL AUTOMATION... that's the fundamental thing to call it a cheat. The others you keep referiring too are of secondary importance.

Quote from migf1 :

glenn: can't make it more clear to you, sinbad did too... the macro is an EXTERNAL AUTOMATION... that's the fundamental thing to call it a cheat. The others you keep referiring too are of secondary importance.

ok so programming your controller to make it easier to access and change settings in the F11 & F12 screens is a cheat? Or using logitec profiler to adjust the profile of your clutch axis is a cheat? Hmm what about using teamspeak to chat to team mates about race strategy, or using the analog gauges to give you a different view of your gauges to whats standard or modifying sound files to enable you to hear skid sounds more clearly or using logitec profiler to adjust deg of wheel rotation or using an insim app to be a pit spotter. I could go on.

The fact is I've proven that it is not the macro that gives the clear advantage here. The macro is not what makes macro shifting faster than autoclutch. In fact it is not faster it's just that the button clutch does a better job of simulating a clutch movement than the autoclutch. And if the autoclutch behaved as it did back in patch P this whole discussion would not be occuring as the differences between button clutch and autoclutch would be so miniscual the topic would have never been raised.

To me the deciding factor if an external app is a cheat is if it interferes with LFS within resident memory. A logitec profiler macro doesn't interfere with LFS at all.

@Glenn67...are you by any chance a macro user? You seem to be very vociferous in defending them!

Personally, I think that everybody who uses a macro, a button, or even autoclutch is a nub...REAL drivers use a pedal

(and suffer the consequences of missed gear shifts and a wife nagging because of the noise when you thump your foot on the clutch )

Quote from Bladerunner :

REAL drivers use a pedal

Like Walter Rohrl in Audi Quattro?

Quote from -M- :

Like Walter Rohrl in Audi Quattro?

er...how many Audi Quattros are currently available in LFS???

I bet if Walter Rohrl was driving a Suzuki Swift (XFG!) he would use a pedal!

well arrechee just gave 5 answers in lfsworld ...

how to wall-ride?

Quote from Glenn67 :

ok so programming your controller to make it easier to access and change settings in the F11 & F12 screens is a cheat? Or using logitec profiler to adjust the profile of your clutch axis is a cheat? Hmm what about using teamspeak to chat to team mates about race strategy, or using the analog gauges to give you a different view of your gauges to whats standard or modifying sound files to enable you to hear skid sounds more clearly or using logitec profiler to adjust deg of wheel rotation or using an insim app to be a pit spotter. I could go on.

No matter how long you can go on, the macro is an EXTERNAl AUTOMATION (more than one driving operations assigned to ONE button).

Quote from fujiwara :

well arrechee just gave 5 answers in lfsworld ...

Actually 4 (the FZR replay gives me an OSS error).

Quote from migf1 :

Actually 4 (the FZR replay gives me an OSS error).

i'm using patch Z..and got no error.

me too, but i get

Quote from fujiwara :

well arrechee just gave 5 answers in lfsworld ...

5 hard WR's in a pair of days and without cheats.

Quote from Emilio :

5 hard WR's in a pair of days and without cheats.

Judgeing from Flotch's post, only 4 of them are without "cheats"

You see now though, he's taken a couple of my XRG wr's which wern't to slow, but he's taken them both by under a tenth, makes a change from 7 tenths.......

HI,

This wr laps i made to all people who said my wr laps is with macro or similar crap programs...

You are watching with manual clutch or auto clutch the results is very similar...But with CLUTCH BUTTON NO MACROS...

Say my today laps is not very worked,only each 1 combination,no more hotlaping 30-45min...But is sufficient to demostrate really little diference to use any metod de gear.

FZR sprint 2 lap deleted by small stroke on the wall

Greetings and no more stupid discussions.

Bye!

Quote from Bladerunner :

@Glenn67...are you by any chance a macro user? You seem to be very vociferous in defending them!

Believe it or not I don't care at all about macro users, well I care about it at the exact same level as unrealisticly low deg of wheel rotation, low max brake pressure, unrealistic setups,etc, etc. It's a controller config or setup choice that is there even if it is unrealistic imo.

Using a macro clutch I'd venture to say gives less gain than an individual setting their deg of wheel rotation low and if you take out the differences of autoclutch not acting as it should then the difference between the speed gain of low wheel rotation and a macro are light years apart.

I have seen many well respected drivers in the past (I'm talking 2004 era) use a macro clutch and these are drivers that were dead against cheating.
I just get very bemused at how when things swing around and become politically incorect by the majority how aggressive and forcefull the mob becomes against those that don't do what "they" believe is right.

Don't get me wrong I don't mind people having a different opinion then me, I just get concerned when I start to see life time bans and possies being raised to go and hunt down all those dreadfull nasty cheats. I find the whole thing rather unpalatable which prods me to investigate further and try to bring some balance to peoples views. I believe I have done that to some degree.

The bonus is I may have uncovered a bug in the autoclutch which might get fixed and all autoclutch users would then get a better experience in LFS than they do now.

But the point is, you can't say that macro/button really isn't any faster, when in fact yourself and a few others of us have proven that it is. No matter how flawed the autoclutch may be, the fact still remains that for the time being it is slower than the other methods. Imagine in hotlapping, two equally fast drivers are doing the same combo. Both are using autoclutch, and have done a lap at the very edge of what is possible. The time difference between their laps is, lets say, 0.08s. Now the one that is 0.08s behind switches to macro/button clutch and instantly do a lap 0.3s-0.4s better. How is that not a huge advantage? And there is also the issue of more clutch wear when using autoclutch.

Quote from arco :

Imagine in hotlapping, two equally fast drivers are doing the same combo. Both are using autoclutch, and have done a lap at the very edge of what is possible. The time difference between their laps is, lets say, 0.08s. Now the one that is 0.08s behind switches to macro/button clutch and instantly do a lap 0.3s-0.4s better. How is that not a huge advantage? And there is also the issue of more clutch wear when using autoclutch.

Now imagine the same senerio with someone like balderunner who uses axis clutch and shifter also imagine if more than 50% of LFS's used such a setup. How is it not the case you using an autoclutch doesn't give you a huge advantage over him? Even more so if you have a G25 but don't use the shifter/clutch. I know it's his choice to use that controller method, but it's also your choice to use autoclutch. It seems to me that if something disadvantages the majority it's a called cheat but if it only disadvantages a minority it's ok.

As you know I agree there is a big problem at the moment in the disparity of the autoclutch over the button clutch and I'm hoping it will be fixed.

I just personally draw the line at calling the use of a macro a cheat when it can't be clearly demonstated as the cause of the advantage. Go back to when S2 was first released and at that time there was no clear advantage of using a macro because the button clutch and autoclutch worked in much the same way. Between then and now something has changed in the way the autoclutch operates to give it a distinct disadvantage.

Quote from Bawbag :

Judgeing from Flotch's post, only 4 of them are without "cheats"

You see now though, he's taken a couple of my XRG wr's which wern't to slow, but he's taken them both by under a tenth, makes a change from 7 tenths.......

I'd say that the difference is the time expended working in the combo

arrechee's WR's usually are the combinations for our weekly league race. Obviously one week hotlapping will bring a better WR than 4 days for 5 combos

Anyway... he has proven not to use the macro (and not to need it), I only hope that people get sure of what they say before accusing anyone of cheating

Quote from RocksGt :

[snip]

Anyway... he has proven not to use the macro (and not to need it), I only hope that people get sure of what they say before accusing anyone of cheating

I paid my respects to arrechee for his recent wr using AC, which were against two tough oponents: Bawbag & Rudy van Buren! In this weird macro situation (where it's not crystal clear who's using it an who's not) the only safe way to stay with a clean name is to drive either with AC or with CL.

If anyone will be accused of cheating or not is pretty much his responsibility, and as far as I am concerned, arrechee just did the right thing! He proved his case! I just hope he keeps using AC (or CL)

As Glenn said, the point is not the manual clutch (both button and axis) working better than autoclutch, but the autoclutch being worse than those. With LFS you are provided an automation of the clutch pedal called autoclutch, so you don't have to worry about it. But you are also provided a manual way to use the clutch. It happens that the automatic clutch is slower and has poorer performance than the manual one, so it's just natural that some people will chose manual clutch over automatic.

Now, how can you tell that someone using manual clutch is using a macro or not? Well, there's simply NO way. You might say that analyzing his RAF or whatever. But it can perfectly be the case that the guy masters the technique of pressing two buttons at the same time (which is not difficult at all). That's having no evidence at all.

Before, I was against the macro because I thought its performance was unreachable by humans, but after reading glenn's report on different clutch method's behaviour, now I find it pretty interesting. AC is indeed VERY unrealistic, while pedal/button/macro are all more realistic. I don't consider it an unfair advantage anymore, but I consider AC a disadvantage now.

I'm glad he did that, but to be fair, those laps weren't anything special. I mean yeah they are good, not saying that I can beat them, but take BB's Fe Club XRG lap for example. We were on teamspeak just after some FZR testing, and I said the fe1 WR looks pretty easy to beat. So we beat it within 10 minutes.. well I think he did it quicker. He's like 'oh oh, good split... aww crap shitty last split. oh well its still a wr'. Arrechee only beat this lap by 0.02, if he had have used BC he most likely would have beaten it by more than 0.1, possibly even 0.2, but I doubt it on such a short track.

Anyway, good on ya arrechee, thanks for doing laps that way to prove to everyone you can drive with ac as well.

Now it's time for zaninanina or whatever to do it

Isn't the AC artificially tuned down to give players using manual clutch reward for their skill?
I mean, why on earth somebody using AutoClutch (thus not driving the car as in real life) should have the same performance available than somebody who drives the car properly (and thus has to do more to move around track)?

And I *do* use AC, so I have to accept this disadvantage too, but it was my choice to not bother with clutch, so I can perfectly understand I'm punished for it a bit.

Quote from [DUcK] :

I'm glad he did that, but to be fair, those laps weren't anything special. I mean yeah they are good, not saying that I can beat them, but take BB's Fe Club XRG lap for example. We were on teamspeak just after some FZR testing, and I said the fe1 WR looks pretty easy to beat. So we beat it within 10 minutes.. well I think he did it quicker. He's like 'oh oh, good split... aww crap shitty last split. oh well its still a wr'. Arrechee only beat this lap by 0.02, if he had have used BC he most likely would have beaten it by more than 0.1, possibly even 0.2, but I doubt it on such a short track.

Anyway, good on ya arrechee, thanks for doing laps that way to prove to everyone you can drive with ac as well.

Now it's time for zaninanina or whatever to do it

Yeah de lap is good lap but no top worked.I lost a 6x split 2,but no more try...anyway try to beat again FE1 XRG..you say it very easy to beat...why are you waiting?its easy to win the current wr...less talk an more racing.Sure nobody eat actually wr by 0.3...

Quote from Ped7g :

Isn't the AC artificially tuned down to give players using manual clutch reward for their skill?
I mean, why on earth somebody using AutoClutch (thus not driving the car as in real life) should have the same performance available than somebody who drives the car properly (and thus has to do more to move around track)?

And I *do* use AC, so I have to accept this disadvantage too, but it was my choice to not bother with clutch, so I can perfectly understand I'm punished for it a bit.

I totally agree with you. It's like using automatic gears. If you use automatic gears, how can you say "it's not fair that the people using manual gear shifts are faster than me"?

Is arrechee a cheater??