The online racing simulator
Round 1: Post-Race Discussion
1234
6
(156 posts, started )
#126 - BreadC
Quote from danowat :Funny how the faster drivers moan about the slower drivers, and vice versa, I am starting to think the only way to at least come close to solving this issue is to ballast/intake restrict the faster drivers so they don't lap the slower ones...........

Either that or both parties act sensibly, which we know probably isn't going to happen.

It boils down to an ego thing, the slower drivers ego gets hurt because they have to yeld to faster drivers (and probably wish they were as fast, heck, I know I feel it) and the faster drivers ego's get the better of them when a slower driver gets in the way of "their" race.

Bottomline, this will never get sorted, not while there is such a spread of skill levels on the same track, so I emplore the IGTC admins to clarify the rules so that these sorts of disscusions become null and void, because it will go round, and round, and round, you get the idea......

so the fast drivers are gonna get penalized even more coz they spend hours and hours getting the perfect setup while others just turn up and race? i saw a few PB's in the race where they improved by 3-4 seconds..

its not the fault of drivers who put in the hard work of perfecting a setup which can hold a 1:08 lap every lap.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :danowat nailed it there.

So please, wait for us to formulate a new policy.

Then we can start another round of arguing.

right.... i await to read these new ballast rules....

PS. for all you that say we front runners are "hotlappers" that is not true... the teams all probably have a set which they worked hard on thats why they all were in top 5.

and i was in hotlapping mode.. but only from 3 hours 50 to 4 hours... hence fastest lap last lap
#127 - joshdifabio
The most annoying thing is when you lap someone, and then they draft you out of the corner and you have to yield to them into the next turn to avoid an incident. This just loses (note the correct spelling nubs) both of you a lot of time and is completely pointless, especially when you are clearly quicker.

It should certainly not be allowed imo, it's basically the same as defending a pass if you continually attempt to repass a car as soon as it laps you. This is especially common with the GTR class as the FZR is a lot better than the others under braking, the FXR accelerates more quickly from the corners, and the FXR and XRR both have a higher top speed than the FZR.
#128 - DeadWolfBones
BreadC, I think dano was using a bit of sarcasm there. Or at least that's how I interpreted it.

There will be no "success ballast" in the IGTC. Ever.
#129 - DeadWolfBones
Quote from joshdifabio :The most annoying thing is when you lap someone, and then they draft you out of the corner and you have to yield to them into the next turn to avoid an incident. This just loses (note the correct spelling nubs) both of you a lot of time and is completely pointless, especially when you are clearly quicker.

It should certainly not be allowed imo, it's basically the same as defending a pass if you continually attempt to repass a car as soon as it laps you. This is especially common with the GTR class as the FZR is a lot better than the others under braking, the FXR accelerates more quickly from the corners, and the FXR and XRR both have a higher top speed than the FZR.

Do you think this needs to be explicitly written in?
#130 - danowat
Quote from DeadWolfBones :BreadC, I think dano was using a bit of sarcasm there. Or at least that's how I interpreted it.

There will be no "success ballast" in the IGTC. Ever.

Yeah, doesn't come across to well in written text.........
#131 - DeadWolfBones
The perils of taking the internets as serious business, I guess.
#132 - SamH
Here's an example. I'm not actually proposing these as a set of rules, but basically lifting from what Eric said and using as little prescriptive and as much goal-based ruling as I could in a hurry (I'm busting for the bathroom!)

What the faster guy has to realize is that the slower guy is racing too. You may have to wait for a corner or two before the pass can happen if you catch them at a bad spot.

1.1) It is the responsibility of lapping cars to wait for a safe opportunity to perform an overtaking manoeuvre by indicating presence and their intention to the car ahead. (flash headlights 3 times).

Conversely, the slower guy has to realize that the faster guy isn't just out there hot lapping for a pb. They are having a race too and every 10th of a second is important to them. Don't fight the guy, work with him to let him get around as quickly and as safely as possible.

1.2) Cars being lapped must acknowledge the presence of approaching lapping cars by turning on their hazards for 2 seconds either in advance of being flashed, or immediately upon. Failure to acknowledge a lapping car within two track segments (corners or straights) may be considered wilful obstruction by the admins.


Lapping is a big part of endurance racing. Traffic giveth and traffic taketh away. Learn from it and accept it. It will not change anytime soon. I can't say it any stronger than this. It is part of endurance racing at every level. Expanded and explicit rules are not really going to make it any different, just more complicated.
1.3) Once both the lapper and lappee have established acknowledgement of each other, they are bound to work together to allow passage safely immediately and without hesitation.

2.0) A cluster of cars is defined as a group of 2 or more cars competing together for position, with no more than 2 car lengths between any car in the group.

2.1) Lapping cars, approaching clusters, must accept that a delay may be inevitable. The Lead Car of such clusters may indicate a willingness to be overtaken by the use of hazards. This indication should then perculate promptly to the rear of the cluster, resulting in an indicated easy passage for the lapping car.

2.2) Advantage must not be taken by any car in the cluster until the lapping car is fully past the whole group.

2.3) The marshals place expectation for these rules to be followed by both the lapper and lappee cars. Failure to comply in a prompt fashion by either parties may result in penalties. Marshals retain the right to determine if compliance is a driver's action is regarded as sufficiently prompt, and cars involved in blue flag situations should act immediately to avoid penalties accordingly.

The last bit, 2.3, just basically seals the bag.. drivers can openly interpret and stretch the rules as much as they want, but on pain of death of their team's standings. What is expected is, here, well defined.. push it and a driver may just push himself out.
#133 - DeadWolfBones
Quote from SamH :
1.1) It is the responsibility of lapping cars to wait for a safe opportunity to perform an overtaking manoeuvre by indicating presence and their intention to the car ahead. (flash headlights 3 times).
1.2) Cars being lapped must acknowledge the presence of approaching lapping cars by turning on their hazards for 2 seconds either in advance of being flashed, or immediately upon. Failure to acknowledge a lapping car within two track segments (corners or straights) may be considered wilful obstruction by the admins.
1.3) Once both the lapper and lappee have established acknowledgement of each other, they are bound to work together to allow passage safely immediately and without hesitation.
2.0) A cluster of cars is defined as a group of 2 or more cars competing together for position, with no more than 2 car lengths between any car in the group.
2.1) Lapping cars, approaching clusters, must accept that a delay may be inevitable. The Lead Car of such clusters may indicate a willingness to be overtaken by the use of hazards. This indication should then perculate promptly to the rear of the cluster, resulting in an indicated easy passage for the lapping car.
2.2) Advantage must not be taken by any car in the cluster until the lapping car is fully past the whole group.
2.3) The marshals place expectation for these rules to be followed by both the lapper and lappee cars. Failure to comply in a prompt fashion by either parties may result in penalties. Marshals retain the right to determine if compliance is a driver's action is regarded as sufficiently prompt, and cars involved in blue flag situations should act immediately to avoid penalties accordingly.


I see what you're trying to do with this, but I think it necessitates too many silly rules (i.e., 2.1 and 2.2) that would be very difficult to execute in actual racing. I like the headlights/hazards idea (I know headlights are used this way in real life enduro racing), but I think that in LFS this might cause more problems than it solves.

I think that prescriptive can still work here.
#134 - srdsprinter
I like the intent, but hazzards and flashing lights are going to send me off the track fumbling around the keyboard. I've never used them, and the G25 doesn't have a plethora of easily accessible buttons.

I still think K.I.S.S.: Lapping car must present a passing manouver, lapped car must not defend.
#135 - DeadWolfBones
I agree with that, Stu.
#136 - danowat
Jesus, IMO, this is getting waaaaayyy out of hand.

As an aside from this DWB, how does this lapping situation work in MoE?
#137 - joshdifabio
Quote from DeadWolfBones :Do you think this needs to be explicitly written in?

Possibly, I do think that it was a problem during round 1. Maybe just add that attempting to immediately re-pass a car which has just lapped you is seen as defensive driving.

SamH: I think that you need to realise that "hotlapping", as you call it, is probably the main part of endurance racing. Look at the results from any IGTC or MoE race and you will see that the teams posting the fastest times are at the front! If a team is more aggressive than others at passing backmarkers, and gains 0.2s per lap because of it, this adds up a lot over a period of four hours. 0.2 per lap would equate to around 40 seconds in the race just gone.

It's not fair to keep critisizing teams for wanting to lap as quickly as possible; if a team wants to challenge for wins then they can't possibly give away a few tenths every lap. Remember that in an endurance race you aren't constantly battling for position with the cars around you, gaining places is achieved by being quicker over a long period of time, which means being fast lap after lap.

I also want to add that hotlapping means being fast over 1 lap, being consistently fast over a sustained period of time is a different skill entirely. People need to stop bashing others for wanting to win races!
#138 - Gil07
"Hotlapping mentality" has nothing to do with being fast. It is acting like you're the only one with the right to be on the track, and everyone should move aside for you when they catch a small glimpse of you in their mirrors

Stu's K.I.S.S. sounds good enough for me...
#139 - The Moose
Quote from srdsprinter :I like the intent, but hazzards and flashing lights are going to send me off the track fumbling around the keyboard.

Agreed. My hands don't want to come off the wheel at all during a stint.
#140 - SamH
As I said, it wasn't intended to be a proposal for rules. It was just an example of homing in from what you want to achieve to a rule-set that achieves it. The more you can filter out the intricacies while covering the aspects they relate to, the better and more usable the rule-set becomes.

[edit]Josh, what Gil said. It's about the mindset, not about the activity.
#141 - BreadC
during the race i only had to defend my position from a backmarker once...

so i dont think after getting lapped is much of a problem

maybe others had it more?
#142 - SamH
Quote from BreadC :during the race i only had to defend my position from a backmarker once...

so i dont think after getting lapped is much of a problem

maybe others had it more?

We had it the other way where our driver was put into a wall by someone coming through, too impatient to wait for an appropriate moment, and (it seemed to me either totally deliberately or blatantly disrespectfully) ran our guy off the track and into a wall. I don't think the lapping driver lost 4 places with his DT, like he caused us to do. I feel very familiar with this situation being very firmly on the receiving end of an unsporting and bullish mentality in lapping drivers.
#143 - BreadC
Quote from SamH :We had it the other way where our driver was put into a wall by someone coming through, too impatient to wait for an appropriate moment, and (it seemed to me either totally deliberately or blatantly disrespectfully) ran our guy off the track and into a wall. I don't think the lapping driver lost 4 places with his DT, like he caused us to do. I feel very familiar with this situation being very firmly on the receiving end of an unsporting and bullish mentality in lapping drivers.

i guess that was a dig...

nevermind.. life goes on
#144 - SamH
Oh bugger, was that you? Sorry mate, I didn't realise! LOL
#145 - DeadWolfBones
Quote from danowat :Jesus, IMO, this is getting waaaaayyy out of hand.

As an aside from this DWB, how does this lapping situation work in MoE?

Surprisingly uncomplicatedly.

If you'd asked me prior to round 1, I would have sworn we'd be arguing about the SC periods right now, not blue flags. Go figure.

Anyway, unless anyone has a major objection to the last revision I posted here, I think we can move ahead with those rules. I'm interested to hear whether CD in particular have an objection.

They should be clear enough for everyone to understand, and the penalties for disobeying them are obvious.

I would also say that cars who are found guilty of blocking/defending against lappers 2x or more in a race will probably face points penalties and/or probation/suspension, at the marshals discretion. As would lapping cars who repeatedly fail to show respect to lapped cars.
#146 - srdsprinter
To clear the negative emotions derived from the words "hotlapping mentality":

- Yes, you need to go as fast *as realistically possible* every lap!

It is understood that LFS does lack a number of details that affect the possible realism including track temp, oil, grass/dirt, finalized damage, etc. Therefore you obviously don't need to account for these in how hard you push.

What I hope people understand is that lapping cars is part of racing, tenths / lap will be lost. It is entirely Unrealistic to make rules that cater to ensure that teams will be able to lap cars without any delay. It is up to all the drivers (especially late into races) to work together to minimize the amount of delay.

It is this "hotlapping mentality" where drivers expect to be 100% unimpeeded to turn 100% perfect laps.

- I think this is actually very rare in actuality, otherwise you would not be in a series with Wind and No Rejoin/Reset.

The fastest teams will win, we just need to work together to create as realistic racing as we can given the current state of LFS.
#147 - BreadC
a rule that i saw recently was in nascar.. for every safety car, the first lapped car gets to go around and rejoin the back of the line? how would that fair with the admins? good or bad?
#148 - DeadWolfBones
Quote from BreadC :a rule that i saw recently was in nascar.. for every safety car, the first lapped car gets to go around and rejoin the back of the line? how would that fair with the admins? good or bad?

Ah, the "lucky dog" rule.

I personally wouldn't have an issue with it, but I don't know what the community feeling is.
#149 - BreadC
Quote from DeadWolfBones :Ah, the "lucky dog" rule.

I personally wouldn't have an issue with it, but I don't know what the community feeling is.

thats what its called.. i knew it was dog..

yea the lucky dog rule
#150 - Gil07
All cars ahead of the leader get to go around the SC, no need for more IMO. That rules means the first driver behind the leader that is a lap down gets his lap back? I don't really like that to be honest, it's good as is.
1234
6

Round 1: Post-Race Discussion
(156 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG