I think Storm's point is that if the FIA has enough evidence to condemn the team, then the whole team should be condemned. The current decision is a farce because, assuming they have proof that McLaren cheated, they still let their drivers race for point with cars that are the result of those cheats.

Lies!!!!!

Ferrari = Italian Mafia

They setup McLaren with 'documents' and now their competition have been taken out. j/k?

Well hey, Dennis still denies that McLaren used any of the data or whatever was in the documents... Who to believe...

wow... all the points down and 100 million dollars out of mclaren... no constructor championship

I do realise the Drivers had 0 knoledge on the espionage, but I think they should Lose their points from when the (spying) started. at least , they will get 10th place or something :/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/l ... t/formula_one/6991147.stm

Don't know if this provides any more info than the other links ...

Anyway, at least McLaren will probably still finish ahead of Renault

Quote from Tweaker :

Ferrari = Italian Mafia

There's another kind of mafia?

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Have they? Take off your indignant Ferrari fan hat for a moment and think about it. What evidence do you have that they cheated? Until the FIA release more information tomorrow, none of us know what they based this judgement on.

They have been found guilty by the World Motor Sports Council, not me. I do not have the evidence - WMSC do. It is a 26 man body, not just Max Moseley and Jean Todt as McLaren fans would have us believe.

BTW - I am not a Ferrari fan. I don't really follow any team but I like Rosberg, Button and Webber of the current crop.

Yes you are right Flip, that's my opinion on this.

I'll repeat my earlier point - 1 member of an Olympic 4x100m relay team is caught taking steroids but the other 3 get to keep their gold medals. That is roughly the position we have because of this insane punishment.

Good to see that Hamilton will still win the championship, despite the fact that i love ferrari. I wonder what will happen next year since there hopefully won't be any form of possible...that is found.

Quote from mcintyrej :

DamonHill voted to ban [iDi]Schumi [1/5197]

[iDi]Schumi was banned
VTiRoj : admin powerzzzz <3

F1 is as quickly going downhill faster than the cars themselves. All this talk of cheating, I wont be suprised if next year, the only team left is Spyker and probably Honda too.

Quote :

F1 is as quickly going downhill faster than the cars themselves. All this talk of cheating, I wont be suprised if next year, the only team left is Spyker and probably Honda too.

LOL, Spyker that would be great... Spyker recently sold cuz of dissapointments and the next year wins the championship

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

They have been found guilty by the World Motor Sports Council, not me. I do not have the evidence - WMSC do. It is a 26 man body, not just Max Moseley and Jean Todt as McLaren fans would have us believe.

Guilty of what, exactly? The last 'judgement' from the WMSC said that McLaren had been found in breach of Article 151c which, as I recall, talks about "acts prejudicial to the sport" or something equally vague. I want to know what 'new evidence' was brought to the court to persuade them that McLaren were, in fact, acting in a manner which was damaging to the sport.

Quote :

I'll repeat my earlier point - 1 member of an Olympic 4x100m relay team is caught taking steroids but the other 3 get to keep their gold medals. That is roughly the position we have because of this insane punishment.

I agree with you entirely on this, and that's one of the reasons I'm so angry with the WSMC decision.

I think it's great.

Everyone knows 'cheating' and 'espionage' etc occur, but now they know they have to keep it quiet, and not carry around 700 pages of information directly from another team. Then they have to agree not to discuss it via email, phone etc. McLaren have just been silly to allow that to happen, as have all the individuals involved.

Maybe Ron will do the decent thing and give McLaren back to New Zealand when he retires.

It's like me stealing a television, and then emailing my friends to tell them how great it is, and showing it off to passers-by. Then claiming it was mine all the time.

I just don't believe McLaren had anything to do with it. Not that I particularly like Ron Dennis (I mean, what's to like?) or McLaren (in its "Ron Dennis' Corporate-Friendly Superteam" incarnation), but it seems to me they're being punished for the actions of two individuals acting independently of their respective teams.

The only difference I can spot with the Ferrari-Toyota affair is that Ron Dennis basically admitted to knowing about the dossier in question which automatically implicated the whole team - or just provided ground for the Ferrari legal package to shine.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I just don't believe McLaren had anything to do with it. Not that I particularly like Ron Dennis (I mean, what's to like?) or McLaren (in its "Ron Dennis' Corporate-Friendly Superteam" incarnation), but it seems to me they're being punished for the actions of two individuals acting independently of their respective teams.

The whole report should be out today so then we'll know the exact details (or not). I think Dennis is just being hypocrite.

Why does the FIA take away Constructer points and Not drivers!
Its stupid, if a Mclaren driver gets the title that will be a drivers title added to mclarens tally which would contradict the punishment.

I say mclaren should of been punished the 400million or what ever they spent on the car this year with, no other punishment...

The drivers sturck a deal with the FIa so that if they handed over key evidence they would not be punished. It was the drivers or the team.

Apparently McLaren will only pay 30$ millions. If McLaren had won manufacturer championship, prize money would have been 70$ and this will now cut out from the total fine. What a steaming pile of bullshit.

Didn't find English news link for this...

Quote from deggis :

Apparently McLaren will only pay 30$ millions. If McLaren had won manufacturer championship, prize money would have been 70$ and this will now cut out from the total fine. What a steaming pile of bullshit.

Didn't find English news link for this...

Yeah, but they're still $100 million down on where they would have been, so the fine still stands at $100 million.

The full decision by the FIA's WMSC: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62348

FIA reveals evidence that led to penalty: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62346

Dennis tipped off FIA about evidence: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62376

Ecclestone fought to keep McLaren in: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62375


There are the links to all the stories for those who want them.

I'm glad that Ron Dennis seems to have not taken part in this, and done the right thing when he discovered new evidence. It has however exposed the rotten core of F1, if drivers accept spying as the norm and use information fed to them that may have been illegally obtained. There was no mention of Hamilton, but I expect he knew about this too since he gave evidence to the FIA.

After reading some of that decision PDF, I think there's still a slight possibility that Ron isn't telling the whole truth and is just being hypocrite.

It seems the drivers knew after all. They should have been excluded from the drivers' championship then.

If I was Ron, and all of this really did go on without my knowledge, I would sack everyone involved and bring in people I could trust. I would also stop all spying, including taking photographs of other teams cars. Ron just said on ITV that his integrity is more important to him than F1, so I hope he has been honest during this whole spying nonsense.

Quote from axus :

It seems the drivers knew after all. They should have been excluded from the drivers' championship then.

Max Mosley, with a letter dated 30th August, granted immunity to the drivers if they cooperated. Someone then decided to save his ass while still possible, with trouble looming ahead.

That's why the emails incriminating McLaren went public, because Alonso gave them to FIA. The authenticity of the mails isn't disputed at the moment.

Does this immunity stuff suck? Of course it does. The whole story stinks, but the stench isn't coming from Ferrari. Those who don't like this idea can always come out with their evidence, as Alonso did...

And, regarding drivers immunity, Ferrari knew about it, maybe they even encouraged Mosley for his letter because it was the only way to gather the needed evidence to achieve the best possible result (in a legal way ). For sure they must have preemptively accepted that the outcome of the judgement wouldn't involve the drivers, although they were part in cause (at least De la Rosa and Alonso). That's why Ferrari is satisfied with the outcome, although they are far more interested in racers championship than in the constructor championship.