I don't mean to start a battle as to which one is better, I'm just curious as to what others think about what stage of development each is at relative to each other, and what are the key differences.

For example, I played the GTL demo last night, and while I enjoyed it, I prefer the physics in LFS. There are some nice touches though, like the changing of gears and foot movements over the pedals. Also the weather effects are top notch.

Time will tell with rFactor, netKar (soon) and iRacing (?), but we can comment on the demos for rFactor and netKar.

I guess I'm thinking out loud a bit, but am untimately looking to gauge where each is at relative to LFS. Also, perhaps by isolating the strong/not so strong points of the other sims, we may (inadvertently) identify areas where LFS can improve.

On top of course

I'll make this as short as I can.

I love LFS for its features, specifically it's very VERY fine detail with physics and special focus on those areas. No other 'simulation' has taken into account that high advanced simulations used these days (like for Automobile Manufacturers, Crash testing, etc), all use special telemetry data that truly 'simulate' nearly every aspect of the car to make something safe for the real world. And not even just a car, simulations for tires, exhaust pipes, all that stuff. LFS has a limited amount of highly advanced data of course, nothing too excessive since it has to cope with personal technology, but it has all the necessary features that make it truly advanced in the driving physics world. In my opinion, they have set standards for many interesting features, specifically tire physics and modelling. Half-Life 2, is my other best pick for other forms of physics (ie objects falling, ragdoll, etc).

Compared to other games now... all I see with the other simulations is a visual eye candy and the phyics presented to you behind a closed door. In other words, you cannot really explore the dynamics of how everything is working and be TRUSTED that you are seeing the car being simulated. LFS has live suspension telemetry, tire deformation, and all that stuff that you can see with your very own eyes. All these other games may or may not have it visually, could have it in the game, but you really never know about them. Even though these advanced features are not present in real life while in a car... I could care less... I am addicted to seeing data being more 'involved' in the simulation. It's not just the driving aspect that I worry about too.

rFactor, netKar, GTL, and other future games are making progress, I'll admit that... but I still believe that a true simulation fan should have all the tools necessary to know how this proposed 'simulation' is working, and not just verbal or text promises from the developers. All they can say is "advanced supsension modelling". Where?!?! You see what I mean?

LFS has proof of all these features... you see it happening, you feel it happening, and there has yet to be a game that takes their features to this level -- it is all usually hidden by graphics, special effects and invisible calculations -- leading some to believe that they are driving something accurate. You never know if it truly is accurate/real or not. Again, for the most part LFS tells the truth.

Hard to explain, but I think you should understand

And not to mention that the most popular games out right now have one important feature, GOOD MULTIPLAYER. LFS has the best in my opinion. And in order for any new video game to be successful (whether on PC, console, etc), it has to connect to the internet... it is a common trend, and is always the most fun. Leave players with a crappy netcode and multiplayer system, forget about it. Give them an excellent netcode, easy to use multiplayer system, and even a huge statistics site (thanks Victor), you've got yourself a winner.

:lfs:

LFS is more dinamic and i love it's pickup races when i got just like 30 min. spare time. rF is the thing i'm waiting for (got my flame suit on lol) and when it's out, then i'm going to decide where i'll stick. Tryed GTL demo and it realy didnt do anything special to me (except eyecandy dx9 features). In my oppinion GTR is better than S1, S2 way better than GTR and GPL-demo and what will rF be...i'll have to wait and see, but i got high hopes for it.

ummm where LFS stands in comparison, here are some of my thoughts

NR2003

LFS doesn't even come close, papy are still the only developer that have got the 'feel' of a simulation right (compared to others that is), the atmosphere and how it feels in general to play is much better than any other, but thats not to say the physics or the rest of it are the best.

GTR

art work, models, track design, visuals, sound, all walk over LFS, the sound been the biggest difference, at high speed GTR feels fine to drive too (don't all sims ), but completely blows at low speed, oh and it doesn't work online, well it does, but it shortens your life.

GTL

same as GTR, but I think the feel of the game has taken a back step, in terms of simulation, it feels more fake and plastic, than GTR.

rFactor

no idea, we'll find out soon.

iRacing

iRacing, what ever they do, will probally lead the next generation of racing sims, but we'll find out more when they release it, when ever that date is.

On LFS

LFS does some things very well, online code, the physics that have been done, are good, but they are not complete which makes some of the aspects of the sim pretty bad, ie driving any RWD car. What LFs really suffers from though imo, is a complete lack of 'racing' feel, it feels souless, like its just been programmed full of numbers, without any life inserted into it, this comes down to several aspects, visuals, sound, and feel, how the physics/motion what ever you want to call it, are transfered to the player through certain feelings you can generate, this is something papy have done the best, imo, and has not been matched.

Sim racing is sim racing, and therefore you have to fake certain aspects of the sim, to generate the realism, sounds odd, but thats how atleast I feel it has to be done.

There is more detail of course I could go into, but I won't bore you yet

And unfortuneately, there hasn't been a game to combine it all

No other title seems to be going where Live For Speed seems to be going. So when we get there I'll take a look around and see who is still standing.

Hmmm. how does it compare? LOL i don't like racing Sims. they are horribly boring. This one is different. It's completely original, the things implemented in the game are different than what you get in the other sims....... I haven't played

GTR or that..."R" whatever. From what I seen of GTR, even though it looks good
graphics wise...something about it.....well looks kinda...fake and from what I've heard, the sounds are canned. they aren't actually related to what's going on, just soundbites activated by trigger type effects.

And Nascar 2003? I went out and bought that game...... Who keeps saying that game is good? It feels as realistic as pole position to me. In fact I d/loaded the gtp mod and just completly overwrote the original game without backing it up. That's how great that game is to me.
Now the GTP mod is kinda cool - if you can find a track for it (LOL FIRST)
The only thing I liked top do with NASCAR was to go the other way and see how many A.I. cars I could take out in one hit.

Uhh you find the game...Souless? what does that mean? If anything, each car is so different feeling and any little tweak you do to one will greatly affect it's characteristics..... I just didn't see that with NASCAR and to tell the trruth, on the GTP mod for it, I didn't really notice any signifigant difference in the characteristics of the cars modded... the Mercedes was just the same as the Jaguar, only the jag has fender skirts.

And one of the most important aspects of LFS, if not THE most important is the online communty and the mixing with the devs..... The other titles can't even almost compare in that regard. LOL most of their online stuff is nonexistant.
with the other titles, if you had a problem with your game you might could get a toll free number to call that will put you in touch with some dude from tech support that keeps getting your game mixed up with air commander 5 or whatever and really just waiting for the shift to end.

Nah, they don't compare IMO. In fact the thread should be renamed from how does LFS compare to other titles to how do other titles compare to LFS

and for me personally? i like the fact that I can listen to online radio and play at the same time. The effect of having wind and exhaust sounds drowning out your stereo is just soooo real to me with the other games? you can't do that and you get the same tired voice overs or music over and over and over... it really takes it away for me

Another strength of LFS ... the community. Cheers for the quick reply guys. I was reading the latest AutoSimSport (ASS) ezine and came across a comment, I think by Jon Davis (not the KoRn front-man), to the effect that the LFS community is 'apart' from the general sim racing community. Perhaps because we know something that others don't ...

Good points made by all, the one that sticks out is from Gunn, who mentions that "no other title seems to be going where LFS seems to be going". I believe that LFS has a VERY solid foundation, developing the 'tools' first, to later add the shine (although there is plenty of shine in LFS at the moment). Best example for what I mean is the menu system - heaps of options, easily accessible = a modder's dream. And in game telemetary, everything needed for comprehensive TV-style presentation overlays (stats - I LOVE stats, 'tis part of the reason I like motorsport and cricket).

If only I could hibernate for five or so years to see what Scawen, Eric and Victor have come up with after S3, and how many quality mods are available (provided iRacing hasn't forced modding to be completely illegal by then). The sky's the limit...

I`m new to LFS2, but this sim is on top in my list. The MP net code is the best that I have used so far. The physics are top notch, the cars do basicly what a car does in real life, and thats what I want a sim to do without faking it just for the feel of realism.

The most important part is fun, if a game or sim isn`t fun I don`t play them. LFS2 is the most fun I`ve had with a racing sim in a long time!!! I also like how the Devs post on this forum.( That hasn`t happened since NASCAR Heat.) I also like all the stats that are on the website.

I am looking forward to see what RFactor has to offer, but as far as IRacing goes, remember that tub of crap that was called NASCAR Racing 4? I`ll wait and see how their FIRST sim pans out.

Having the devs post on the forum is yet another strength of LFS, and adds tremendously to the community. Shows they are very passionate about ther baby and certainly won't release a second-rate (incomplete) sim. The no publisher element makes sure of that ... no pressure to release before it's due. Initially S2 was to be out just before xmas 2004 ... although there was a wait, it certainly hasn't disappointed now has it?

Where does LFS stand?, on its own two feet, its unique, there is NO other game that offers what LFS does, its not "better" per say than any of the games you list, but what it does, it does extremely well.

I play ALOT of racing games, and my favs are GT4 ,yes I know its a console "game", but show me another "game" that you can hotlap 700+ cars around the best rendition of the Nurburgring ever, GTR because what it does do, a "nut + bolt" simulation of GTR racing, it does very well, but its netcode stinks, GTL?, well GTL is still at demo stage, but I like it very much, maybe because I am an old cogger who loves the old 60/70's touring cars.

Bottomline is, there is nothing really to compare LFS too, yet, I guess rFactor will be comparable, plus why do you have to exclusively play LFS?, all the other games/sims offer something in their own right too .

Dan.

we aint even got the "full" S2 experience yet , and don't forget the rally pack

My little thought...

I found LFS accidently one day, and decided to take a look. I emailed the dev's shortly after, telling them I was, and I quote: "Stunned. Dumbfounded. Amazed."

I got a reply from Victor, and that just set in stone my initial opinion. True dedication to the game and it's users. Sure, I'm a demo user, but not for long.

What stands out to me, more than anything (And remember - Demo user. I haven't even experienced the full package yet).. I played GT4, and I enjoyed it.. For a while. I played NFS (I know, I know), and enjoyed it, for a while. I played BF2, and enjoyed it, for a while. Silent Hill, GTA:SA, GTA:VC, Freelancer, MSFS2004.. I enjoyed all.. For a while.

2 weeks in, and I'm still finding new nichés of toys to play with. New things to break. New ways to break them... I was irritated when those 'other' games were mastered in 24-48 hours. I spent days trying to get that damn XRT round the track without crashing. Challenge.

It's a refreshing change to play something that keeps me hooked, keeps me on the edge of ripping my hair out, but yet remains entertaining and fun to play. I haven't played any of those games you're all talking about. I don't like "racing games", they bore me and make me drool when 'Confirm Delete' comes up. ... Until now.

I was, "Stunned. Dumbfounded. Amazed.".
I am, "Stunned. Dumbfounded. Amazed.".
...And I haven't even got a license yet.

*Drools*

--Adding:

Yanno what first stood out to me? Sound stupid - But I reverse-to-first'd the GTi... And it felt real. I'm an ex-banger racer, and ex-lightning rod racer in the UK.. This felt real.. I look forward to banger racing a sim, and look forward to some hard, fast, clean racing... I can't race irl now, I was almost killed in a race.. But this.. This is the next best thing, in my opinion.. .. It feels like it should.

LFS would be the perfect sim if it had the sounds of something like gt legends/GTR, the force feedback of netkar, and realistic directX 9 graphics, maybe a little better netcode to if 1 person didnt lag whole servers that are would almost be perfect

Quote :

What LFs really suffers from though imo, is a complete lack of 'racing' feel, it feels souless, like its just been programmed full of numbers, without any life inserted into it, this comes down to several aspects, visuals, sound, and feel, how the physics/motion what ever you want to call it, are transfered to the player through certain feelings you can generate, this is something papy have done the best, imo, and has not been matched.

Hmm, for me is LFS live as NR2003...Well, its about how much you get used to it..And yes, for me is LFS nr.1!

Quote from steve :

LFS would be the perfect sim if it had the sounds of something like gt legends/GTR, the force feedback of netkar, and realistic directX 9 graphics, maybe a little better netcode to if 1 person didnt lag whole servers that are would almost be perfect

I am gonna disagree with you on most of the points here.....

Sounds, I am glad that they are not the "canned" sounds of GTL/GTR, whilst they sound nice, they are not generated in real time, unlike LFS sounds, which I believe is the way to go.
The graphical quality of LFS2 is excellent, whilst still keeping high performance on modest hardware, you can't say that of GTL.
Netcode in LFS isnt perfect, but its way, way better than 90% of other online racing games.....

Dan.

Physics are for me by far the most important part of any sim. Here I see LFS at nr.1 with netKar Pro probably being the biggest challenger. I'm sceptical about rFactor for the simple reason that I have yet to play an ISI or ISI based game that I liked.

Good point by Tweaker, that in LFS you can see a lot of the physics at work: F-view, tyre-info, suspension kinematics, tyre deformation, drop button...

There does seem to be a bit of them/us mentality between self proclaimed real sim racers and LFS gamers. Not an issue that I personally care about though.

As a pretty new player of the game, I have got to say that in the whole gaming world I have never seen an online community as advanced as LFS. Look what resources are avaliable to you as a racer...unbelievable. Leagues News, Forums, Teams, Mods, do I need to go on?

Okay it may not have the graphics of GTR but you didn't buy this for the graphics, you bought it to race online.

Personally, I prefer the graphics in LFS over GTR ... they seem more realistic. And the movement of the wheel rims don't look strange in replays.

and further to geezer's comment... at least the tyres in LFS deform to the track as well instead of sinking into the track like in GTR.

To my mind rFactor and netKar are the only games that are comparable to LFS but there are still some significant differences, mainly in the area of modding. They also aren't out yet so it's difficult to compare.
One thing that concerns me with rFactor is the tuning in the game, it will need strict car classes or something for the online component. It does seem to have a nice variety of cars out of the box though so is similar to LFS in that respect although I don't think it has as many, could be wrong. I do also like the path they've taken re distribution, very similar to LFS so I wish them luck.
netKar Pro strikes me as the likely main competitor for LFS although the "hardcore" crowd is a bit of a turn off. It will have few cars out of the box though which kinda concerns me but will have top shelf mods available on or near release which is important. I trust that Stefano (I think that's his name) will create a very good physics engine for netKar Pro from what I've read through interviews etc. netKar has also taken a lot of cues from LFS and it's development has been quite similar so I have a lot of respect for what Stefano has done/is doing.
The big thing with these two games though is they are going to heavily rely on modding, not such a bad thing but I've never really been into mods that much. It seems a lot of people will buy rFactor on it's modding nature alone whereas I won't and feel it's unlikely I'll buy either just to play a mod.

I have played a fair number of sims now and the likes of NetKar, GPL, NR2003 + mods and F1C + mods all feel very dated since the release of S2. S2 has raised the bar far higher than anything these games can offer.

Games in the pipeline...

GTL Well if the demo is a good represention of the finished product is will be the same buggy pile of .... that GTR was. I so wanted to lke this demo but have only managed to get the game to run once for a few mins and that was before I plugged in my wheel. But 10-20 BSOD and lockups later and it has been uninstalled. The menu lockups that many, including myself, have experienced was present in GTR and SimBin have not fixed, what does that say about the dev team? Also its just another ISI sim so you might as well pick up rFactor because at least it does not include starforce.

iRacing Now that iRacing/Fir$t are still attacking their future customer base with court action and take down notices I fail to see how anyone will touch this monthly subscription sim. Unless it is a stunning sim, and it will have to be a VERY HIGH level with their actions, it is a non starter from what I can see. Trouble is if they are so worried about people modding NR2003 it can only mean they have not progressed too far from that base because Mods have helped every other game in existance and then also helped future sales of other products by the same dev team.

rFactor No matter what people say, this will be huge. All the F1C mod teams and now most of the NR2003 mod teams are ready to start work on this modable platform. All really depends if you like the ISI engine. There will be a huge amount of content for this and you can bet this will include tracks like the Ring and Bathurst very quickly so I will get just for those tracks.

Racing Legends Is this the new Duke Nukem Forever?

NetKarPro I want this to be good but the old NetKar was such an unfinished product and there has been no real news or even any screen shots for months and months. Is this going the way of Racing Legends?

So apart from rFactor at present there is not too much to compete with S2 from what I can see.

Quote from RichardTowler :

ummm where LFS stands in comparison, here are some of my thoughts

NR2003

LFS doesn't even come close, papy are still the only developer that have got the 'feel' of a simulation right (compared to others that is), the atmosphere and how it feels in general to play is much better than any other, but thats not to say the physics or the rest of it are the best.

GTR

art work, models, track design, visuals, sound, all walk over LFS, the sound been the biggest difference, at high speed GTR feels fine to drive too (don't all sims ), but completely blows at low speed, oh and it doesn't work online, well it does, but it shortens your life.

GTL

same as GTR, but I think the feel of the game has taken a back step, in terms of simulation, it feels more fake and plastic, than GTR.

rFactor

no idea, we'll find out soon.

iRacing

iRacing, what ever they do, will probally lead the next generation of racing sims, but we'll find out more when they release it, when ever that date is.

On LFS

LFS does some things very well, online code, the physics that have been done, are good, but they are not complete which makes some of the aspects of the sim pretty bad, ie driving any RWD car. What LFs really suffers from though imo, is a complete lack of 'racing' feel, it feels souless, like its just been programmed full of numbers, without any life inserted into it, this comes down to several aspects, visuals, sound, and feel, how the physics/motion what ever you want to call it, are transfered to the player through certain feelings you can generate, this is something papy have done the best, imo, and has not been matched.

Sim racing is sim racing, and therefore you have to fake certain aspects of the sim, to generate the realism, sounds odd, but thats how atleast I feel it has to be done.

There is more detail of course I could go into, but I won't bore you yet

interesting

i'm pretty sure that every sim (and any sims, that'll follow) has it's own charme...

i would wish that in the next 2 (and not more!!! ) years a game would be released wich is a mixture of all sims
that would be great *dreaming*

anyway: my favourites:

Single-Player: GTR
Multi-Player: LfS