im gunna try and sum this thread up.

at the end of the day, i think that it depends on your level of experience and your reasons for playing LFS wheter you support the inside outside rules thing we are talking about.

when me and alan or other karters/racers race each other on sims or in real life, we KNOW that if we dont give way on the exits we will be off the track most likely, so we back off and no contact happens.

however, if we are to race people who dont know to back off, contact would happen.

i believe us racers are still right, but i guess it depends on wheter u are in it for fun or to learn real racing...

So Brock and the Holden/M3 race in the video posted by MyBoss was NOT "real racers" because they respected one another?

If you can't converse politely then why post? I see no need to attack. I was just asking, as you clearly said sticking it on the outside is something "real racers" don't do.

Edit -> Really I'm just trying to figure it out, as it seemed there were many times in that battle where one could have (in your eyes) legitimatly squeezed the other off.

Where CAN or CAN'T it be done? I guess any corner you CAN track out all the way.

when you see the way ayrton posts its no wonder in his mind running people off of the track is ok

it doesnt require any skill to run someone else off the track. they can do the same thing to you, but what is the point? it's just a childish way of racing.

look, this is what im talking about, and the guy on the inside is clearly at fault:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7E1TQSKPsk

if you think this is ok, then i have a problem with you. if you think that is cheap, dirty tactics, then i agree with you.

EDIT: Alan Dove look in this video, then read the first page again. This is what we are talking about, and what ayrton seems to be defending.

Quote from drinklime :

look, this is what im talking about, and the guy on the inside is clearly at fault:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7E1TQSKPsk

if you think this is ok, then i have a problem with you. if you think that is cheap, dirty tactics, then i agree with you.

EDIT: Alan Dove look in this video, then read the first page again. This is what we are talking about, and what ayrton seems to be defending.

I think this is the first vid to actually illustrate what was originally asked. The Black car clearly pushes (squeezes) the other car into the barriers. Despite the fact it looks like he could have left the space for a fair drag race down to the next corner.

actually someone else posted it but it got buried in the thread

Quote from Alan Dove :

It's how guys like Gilles Villeneuve racing, Schumacher, Senna to name but a few.... but for sure...they are well childish because clearly winning F1 titles means they are 'like children'!

In FACT i find using the word childish disrespectful because I can go and get a couple of 8 years who could beat you on a level playing field right now!

You discredit yourself. Gilles Villeneuve used to leave room on the outside instead of doing it the Senna's way.

Quote from drinklime :

actually someone else posted it but it got buried in the thread

Sorry, I must of missed it, but it still begers belief that some guys still se that as ok racing.

Quote from Alan Dove :

]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kre35Pct0yA

1:17 - not what I would call 'leaving room' in fact he was ramming rene of the circuit at that point!

watch the video at its correct speed and youll see that rene went off all on his own there

Quote from drinklime :

look, this is what im talking about, and the guy on the inside is clearly at fault:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7E1TQSKPsk

Good ilustration, and I agree.

If you look closely i think he's constantly knocking him (this is either something to put him off or take him off). As you can see out of the bend he cuts him up and puts him into that tyre wall, which is clearly dirty driving, as i cant understand the lanuage in the video the guy who took him out should be banned from racing from that championship, Or points taken away.

Or am i to harsh

Matt

Quote from Alan Dove :

lol i meant 1:20

yeah he did cut him a little there ... this is however him not leaving enough room on the inside
additionally if anything it shows karma does work as he loses the position due to that stunt

also not that this is a race where the went side by side through corner after corner and this is the only point where one of them really didnt leave sufficient room for the other regarless of if its the out or inside
so imho this was bad judgement rather than really trying to ram him off

I've been reading this thread with interest and can see the points of both sides.

At the end of the day though it's the level of your opponents, how well you know their racing style as well as the type of race that would determine how I race against them. If for example I am racing someone that I have had several close battles with I have no problem with a ligitimate squeeze placed on me (i.e. no contact and sufficient overlap has been lost).
That would only fit a very small proportion of all races I have on public servers though and in general I would drive like mrodgers has discribed.

Quote from mrodgers :

If I'm passing, I leave room if I'm not sure. That's what I would do. But if being passed and I loose the overlap, I expect him to take the exit and I back out.

When you take into account internet lag (which admitedly for me is much more of an issue than most as I live 16,000km away from the main population of LFSers ) the level of the majority of racers on public servers and the huge limitations in a SIM over real life (i.e. blind spots, seat of pants feel, etc), I think mrodgers view is a good balance for public servers.

Good post, and that's probably as good as place as any to lock this thread. Don't think there's much uncovered territory to be mined.

Quote from Alan Dove :

lol i meant 1:20

First : this is Renée Arnoux who show up on the inside without sufficient overlap, so you can hardly say that Gilles cut his line on the outside.

Second : this is the only contact in several laps of active battle, where both of them leave room to each others. A slight misjudgement can happen in such a battle.

Third : they both had completely worn out front tires (Gilles having also flat spots), making the braking much more hazardous.

All in all, the whole battle was extremely fair and one of the best they both had (see how they laughed on the podium), and is exactly the opposite to your view about motorsports.

I will had that you mentionned Senna and Schumacher, but you easily forget a lot of F1 World champions (or not champions) which were much more respectfull to their opponents than Senna and Schumacher.

It's not an inside/outside incident, but a situation in which one real driver from Serbia claims that this is fair and that he has every right to do that (the white car on the video)...

I wanted to know what you guys also think about this situation, especially the the people who race something in RL..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH3Pt7XOVlE (it's a reconstruction, i forgot to record a replay, so there's some strange movements from the cars, but you'll get the point..)

Completely unacceptable, of course.

'real racers' - hahhahaha @ ayrton87 or whatever his name is.....

I would like to race you sometime to see how to define dirty in the dictionary.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

I wanted to know what you guys also think about this situation, especially the the people who race something in RL..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH3Pt7XOVlE (it's a reconstruction, i forgot to record a replay, so there's some strange movements from the cars, but you'll get the point..)

It's wrong.
He clearly pushed the black car of the track for no reason.

Quote from geeman1 :

It's wrong.
He clearly pushed the black car of the track for no reason.

He claimed (the white car) that because he's in front, he can change lines as he likes, EVEN THOUGH there is a car beside him, which only results in black car to go in the grass or in the wall to avoid the contact...

Quote from Boris Lozac :

He claimed (the white car) that because he's in front, he can change lines as he likes, EVEN THOUGH there is a car beside him, which only results in black car to go in the grass or in the wall to avoid the contact...

Yeah. The thing is what he is clearly doing wrong is that it's clearly still on the straigth so there is no reason to do that other than to force/push the other car off.

This is actually what a lot of racers in LFS seem to do. I am fine (well almost) with swerwing from side to side on the straigth and blocking a pass that way, BUT if the passer has an even slight overlap it's too late..

In a corner you can try to block more even if the other person has overlap, but there is still a fine line of blocking and pushing people off the track.

On any part of track considered a straight (in my mind that's any easy flatout section where multiple lines are easily possible) there are no "corner rights" and whoever moved across is the one that caused the accident.
This is a fair example of why the "one move" rule should be followed too. If you've moved once to defend the inside line, it's so stupid to sweep back across to the outside just as you're hitting the brakes- you're asking to be hit from behind and there's nothing the following driver can do about it. Loads do it, though.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

He claimed (the white car) that because he's in front, he can change lines as he likes, EVEN THOUGH there is a car beside him, which only results in black car to go in the grass or in the wall to avoid the contact...

as far as im concerned significant overlap on a straight is any overlap at all ... if cutting in line means contact the driver who does it is in the wrong

Quote from Boris Lozac :

It's not an inside/outside incident, but a situation in which one real driver from Serbia claims that this is fair and that he has every right to do that (the white car on the video)...

I wanted to know what you guys also think about this situation, especially the the people who race something in RL..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH3Pt7XOVlE (it's a reconstruction, i forgot to record a replay, so there's some strange movements from the cars, but you'll get the point..)

reconstruction - As it was not the same as happened.
On this vid it is celarly the white cars fault. But I wouldnt say that any one who knows to race would do that. And look it happened in breaking zone (XFG@Bl1). If it happened there it could have only be car slide under breaking to look like you have reconstructed it...

I say I would not give you room if your bumper just passes mine. IMHO it is not substantial overlap. As far as I see if I look into mirrors I couldnt tell if you are behind me but on the side or your bumper passed my rear bumper.
But if you were at least with your front bumper near my position in the car, half the way of the car, then I would give you room as much as you can follow me on the outside...