If I come up behind a slower racer one of the things I find most satisfying is sitting there close behind him knowing the affect it is having on the pressure the guy feels. I'm fully aware that if I can follow him closely, have little 'looks' at passes, and then finally make a clean pass when the time is right, the guy in front will respect me for it.

This is my aim in LFS. I don't care about WRs or league titles. All I care about is my reputation within the LFS community. So long as people know they can race with my wheel to wheel and trust me I have achieved my aim. This results in the most enjoyable, realistic racing experience one can get from this wonderful SIM and public servers would be wonderful, friendly places to visit if everyone shared this objective.

if you drive defensively then it doesn't matter what the other driver does, and there is no need to argue about rules. (when i say defensive i don't mean blocking, i mean assuming that all the other drivers are terrible and likely to hit you at any moment).

personally, if i'm on the inside at the apex, i'll give the other driver some room on the exit, but if i'm on the outside, i don't assume that the other driver will show me the same courtesy, and i'll try to turn in late and cut back to the inside, behind the other car, and re-pass with greater speed after the exit.

Quote from Alan Dove :

I don't actually have a problem with someone trying to hold it round the outside...but don't EXPECT to be given room when I have the corner...

you DONT have the corner you have the APEX
if the other guy is still there after the apex he has the outside line at the exit and is allowed to make you take as tight an exit as he sees fit

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

no man, i totally disagree with that, i said that other people expect to pass by just sticking their nose beside my rear wheel, i comit myself and make sure that they can see me.

and now you expect others to give you the line even though they have significant overlap ... its the same thing

Quote from bbman :

As long as you are side-by-side, you have NOT overtaken, therefore you're not entitled to use the full width on corner exit!

+1

Quote from Shotglass :

and now you expect others to give you the line even though they have significant overlap ... its the same thing

what are u on about? if sum1 has overlap then its thier corner..
thier nose beside my rear wheel ISNT significant overlap

what the hell are u on about?

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

what are u on about? if sum1 has overlap then its thier corner..
thier nose beside my rear wheel ISNT significant overlap

what the hell are u on about?

you complain about people who think they have the right to the apex (NOT corner) from just having a nose in and on the other hand you think you have the right to the exit even though youre not ahead

its simple if you cant get past them you have no right to push them off

youre either fast enough to pass them and they wont be there at the exit or youre not and should either give them room or train your passing

As far as I'm concerned, if you know someone is alongside you (even a little bit) and you intentionally move over to pinch them off (and they hold their line--inside or outside), you're responsible for what you get. And most of the time, if they hold their line, you're going to be the one who spins off.

Making an outside move and holding it is one of the most exhilirating things in auto racing.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Making an outside move and holding it is one of the most exhilirating things in auto racing.

I agree. Its one of the most impressive moves you can see quite often imo.
Managing to keep up with the dude on the inside when you're on the outside is impressive.

BUT, it deppends on the corner of course.


I've attached a picture.

The upper left, and bottom left is in the same situation.

Upper left, right after apex, both cars have the same speed.
Bottom left, right after the inside car have pushed the other car off the track (the other car is on its way out)
Upper right. Dosen't need anny explanation really.

Now. Who would say that the inside car in these pictures have the right to push the other car off?



Being two cars heading into the same corner side by side battling it out is like a marriage. Both have to sacrifice something, the outside guy have to sacrifice the apex, and the inside guy have to sacrifice the outside.
Unless the other car just barely overlaps your bumper of course.

Doesn't all this come down to what rules are specified in the league, the series, on the server etc? You can argue this all you like but if a league has it specified in the rules that the inside car (if alongside in the corner) has the right to the corner exit as well, then you play by those rules and like or stay the heck out.

Take a look at DTM. Wonderfull example of high speed, on the edge racing. I have yet to see a penalty given out to anyone on the indside who also claims the right to the corner exit. Even if there's a concrete wall on the outside. In addition to this, there is also a rule that say that if you have opened the door enough for someone to stick their nose on the inside, you can not close that door, cause the inevitable crash that follows will be your fault.

That rule is in effect in F1, DTM, WTCC, well... just about any racing on the planet. And let's face it... If more people followed that rule, almost half the incidents would be eliminated. And if people also follwed the turn exit rule, about 80% of all incidents would be gone. And if people also tried to use the "gentlemens/womens rule of conduct" on track, almost 95% of all crashes would be gone. The last five % would be caused by wreckers who don't belong on a track anyway...

Basically, what I am saying is:
Take a good look at the rules stated before you enter a league, a series or even a pick up race server. Be gentle and use your head. Simple really

Nice illustrations. You are an jerk if you intentionally run someone beside you off the road just because you can. It is that simple.

Last two posts get a thumbs up from me.

X-Ter: care to show us some examples of such rules in real racing? If there were rules there would be no discussion. But I've yet to see any.

EDIT: with your DTM/concrete wall comment I assume you were referring to Lauda vs Winkelhock at Lausitzring: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7E1TQSKPsk

That's actually quite a good example. The Audi motorsports director Dr. Ulrich and ex champion and Commentator Manuel Reuter thought that Lauda was in the wrong. Norbert Haug and (now fired) race director Roland Bruynseraede thought it was OK.

This supports both my main points: there are no rules about this issue and racing drivers don't agree with each other either (as ayrton and Alan are trying to make us believe).

Quote from J.B. :

X-Ter: care to show us some examples of such rules in real racing? If there were rules there would be no discussion. But I've yet to see any.

1797101136__Appendix_L_a.pdf (Found on official FIA site)
Regarding car being overtaken, chapter IV, section 2:

Quote :

c) curves, as well as the approach and exit zones thereof, may be
negotiated by the drivers in any way they wish, within the limits
of the track. Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be
done either on the right or on the left.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers such as
premature changes of direction, more than one change of
direction, deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the
outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction,
are strictly prohibited and shall be penalised, according to the
importance and repetition of the offences, by penalties ranging
from a fi ne to the exclusion from the race. The repetition of
dangerous driving, even involuntary, may result in the exclusion
from the race.
d) any obstructive manoeuvre carried out by one or several
drivers, either having common interests or not, is prohibited.
The persistent driving abreast of several vehicles, as well as fanshaped
arrangement, is authorised only if there is not another car
trying to overtake. Otherwise the blue fl ag will be waved.

As always, there is room for interpretation, but I guess it's not allowed to hinder a clean overtake in any other way than the usual "one change of lanes".

thats the problem with lots of circuit racers. they can't go through a turn when there are other cars around them. they can go very fast when there are cars behind or in front of them. but not when they have to go through a corner 2 or 3 wide. always sticking on the ideal line no matter what, and always blame it on the guy who was next to them. some realy act like they were AI drivers. giving a damn shit about whats going around them.

the problem there with public servers is, they will always get away with this tactic and be faster then just brake a bit more and let space for the cars around them. if it is an administrated server they will be penalized with this attitude.


in short: if someone is not holding his line and crashes out a car next to him (which is what you describe) it is his fault not giving room. hey may have the right of the corner but not the right to push off other cars on the track. it is as simple as that. even if it is completely his turn, he does not have the right to push off other cars. he won't do that in real life.

Also, a further dig into the sporting code on FIA tells us that each ASN can submit their own "Sporting Code" which in general means that as long as the ASN's sporting code doesn't go against the VERY fuzzu description in the FIA document, it's ok.
And so, if for example WTCC would like to have the "don't close the door" rule, they may very well have so. If V8 Supercar like to have the "go as wide as you like on turn exit" rule, they are free to have it.

Basically, we are back ot what I said before. Read up on the rules on each league, each series and each server, and drive by them

Thanks for pulling that from the FIA site. So the important part concerning this thread is

Quote :

manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers such as
premature changes of direction, more than one change of
direction, deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the
outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction,
are strictly prohibited and shall be penalised

I think the parts about change of direction don't make any sense with respect to corners so that leaves "deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the
outside of the curve".

Strange wording but I would interpret this to mean that you may never push a car off the track in a corner, even with small overlap. Overlap is not mentioned, only intent.

Quote from J.B. :

you may never push a car off the track in a corner, even with small overlap. Overlap is not mentioned, only intent.

exactly. no more comments needed. in my opinion.

and as most of the servers run "common racing rules" then all those servers will steward it as this. (with the exception of banger racing of course)

Quote from X-Ter :

That rule is in effect in F1, DTM, WTCC, well... just about any racing on the planet. And let's face it... If more people followed that rule, almost half the incidents would be eliminated. And if people also follwed the turn exit rule, about 80% of all incidents would be gone. And if people also tried to use the "gentlemens/womens rule of conduct" on track, almost 95% of all crashes would be gone. The last five % would be caused by wreckers who don't belong on a track anyway...

Good god, wouldn't that be boring

Quote from X-Ter :

Doesn't all this come down to what rules are specified in the league, the series, on the server etc? You can argue this all you like but if a league has it specified in the rules that the inside car (if alongside in the corner) has the right to the corner exit as well, then you play by those rules and like or stay the heck out.

Take a look at DTM. Wonderfull example of high speed, on the edge racing. I have yet to see a penalty given out to anyone on the indside who also claims the right to the corner exit. Even if there's a concrete wall on the outside. In addition to this, there is also a rule that say that if you have opened the door enough for someone to stick their nose on the inside, you can not close that door, cause the inevitable crash that follows will be your fault.

That rule is in effect in F1, DTM, WTCC, well... just about any racing on the planet. And let's face it... If more people followed that rule, almost half the incidents would be eliminated. And if people also follwed the turn exit rule, about 80% of all incidents would be gone. And if people also tried to use the "gentlemens/womens rule of conduct" on track, almost 95% of all crashes would be gone. The last five % would be caused by wreckers who don't belong on a track anyway...

Basically, what I am saying is:
Take a good look at the rules stated before you enter a league, a series or even a pick up race server. Be gentle and use your head. Simple really

Nice post. On my server we run dual class FOX and FO8 and so the rules are very specific to my server. The welcome message states the rules are available on the web but I know people don't read them - even some of the people entered in the league. I can tell by the conversations they have.

Even though pretty much everything has been said on this matter, I'd like to post this video which for some reason has not been posted before (Heidfeld overtaking Alonso on the outside):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DtThYuVK9MU

Luckily, Alonso did not drive according to karting-standards and Heidfeld afterwards said something like "this was the greatest moment of my career." And guess what? Norbert Haug did not say "Alonso should have pushed Heidfeld off the track, it was his damn right to do so". Instead: "That was a damn good manoeuvre by Nick. One has to acknowledge that without envy."

Quote from Linsen :

Even though pretty much everything has been said on this matter, I'd like to post this video which for some reason has not been posted before (Heidfeld overtaking Alonso on the outside):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DtThYuVK9MU

Luckily, Alonso did not drive according to karting-standards and Heidfeld afterwards said something like "this was the greatest moment of my career." And guess what? Norbert Haug did not say "Alonso should have pushed Heidfeld off the track, it was his damn right to do so". Instead: "That was a damn good manoeuvre by Nick. One has to acknowledge that without envy."

To be honest, that's not a very good example imo. Alonso would have had to leave the racing line to force heidfeld off the track, if you look at the exit of that corner, they could have driven several metres wider and still would have had plenty of grip. If Heidfeld was a little further back, and there was grass or gravel on the outside of the turn, I'm pretty sure Alonso would have forced Heidfeld wide in order to save his position. However, Alonso didn't have that chance in this particular corner.

i agree with josh, about the line, and also the fact that had alonso pushed heidfeld off, it would have been a sideswipe and not a squeeze since heidfeld was fully alongside at the apex,and the exit.

It's hard to see from this angle, but judging by the rubber on the track, it looks like Heidfeld is on the ideal racing line. It's true, though, that there's plenty of room to take a wider line, so maybe it's indeed not such a great example. But a nice manoeuvre by Heidfeld nonetheless .

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

it would have been a sideswipe and not a squeeze since heidfeld was fully alongside at the apex,and the exit.

But that's what we were talking about the whole time, no? Granted, I'd also leave space if someone is one, two or even three tyre lengths behind my front bumper, but anything after that is fair game IMO. The normal significant overlap rule for inside overtakings does obviously not apply for outside ones - there you need much more overlap to not be squeezed. In your first posts you made it sound like you'll squeeze everyone who even dares to go on the outside, no matter how much overlap he has. Guess that's clarified now.

Quote from AndroidXP :

But that's what we were talking about the whole time, no? Granted, I'd also leave space if someone is one, two or even three tyre lengths behind my front bumper, but anything after that is fair game IMO. The normal significant overlap rule for inside overtakings does obviously not apply for outside ones - there you need much more overlap to not be squeezed. In your first posts you made it sound like you'll squeeze everyone who even dares to go on the outside, no matter how much overlap he has. Guess that's clarified now.

I thought that too. But looks like we might have the same thoughts afterall.