Quote from FIZ :

The problem is that LFS looks like a game from 20 years ago.

I think LFS' looks are more of a strong point instead of a weak point. It's not super flashy with loads of motion blur and lens flare, but it looks very real. The lighting needs improving, and some models could do with texture updates and higher detail, but these things will come. LFS looks and feels very organic, and with the new updates in the pipeline I believe it will be the most realistic looking sim there is.

There are a couple things that make LFS feel a little older. I think the website is the only .net I've ever visited. The UI, while it works amazingly and I wouldn't want to do much to change it, looks a little dated, and lacks a few features.

LFS doesn't have any official events, they work amazingly in other, larger sims where they bring massive player and viewer numbers. Something like Virtual Le Mans, or the iRacing special events that are run by the developers instead of the community. Live for Speed could hire a broadcast team like SBTV to stream the event to official social media accounts like YouTube or Twitch.

Quote from k_badam :

Something like Virtual Le Mans

We want to improve the reputation of LFS, not piledrive it 6 feet deep

Quote from gu3st :

We want to improve the reputation of LFS, not piledrive it 6 feet deep

I did say 'something like' I trust the LFS devs to be a little more competent. Plus, LFS is a million times better than rF2

Basically you mean it needs to have prolific events that attract people and get their attention for the sake of competition. That probably comes down to similar issues as discussed in the league attendance thread. It would be cool to get more out of the bubble for that to work and having LFS on GridFinder is a move in the right direction.

I wouldn’t per se say these events need to be organised by the developers as there are enough esport competitions untied to the game developers. You could make the argument that some of those organisations are even bigger then the developer team themselves.

Quote from mbutcher :

I don't think it's fair to lay all of the blame at the devs feet.

You said the main thing. Without idolatrous beings, one must see the reality. If the devs were able to make this game 20 years ago, at a time when LFS was ahead of the competition in all areas except official licenses, it's because the devs know what they do. So there is no need to explain it to them. Especially since many of the expected developments are already in development. The devs are working, we have to support them and trust them. What else ?

I understand all the impatience. Over time, LFS has generated a lot of hopes and expectations. But I have a lot of trouble with the idea that you have to expect everything from the devs (and from the others in general). I'm not (only) wondering what LFS can do to please me more? I wonder (also) what I could do to make LFS appeal to people other than me, as much as LFS appeals to me.

Like the devs, I have a job with an endless list of things to do. So, I know how difficult, if not impossible, it is to have both hands on the handlebars and watch your little bike leisurely through the forest from afar. This is (also) where the community can be useful. It's good to keep warm here, like walruses on the pack ice. It's (also) good to get your hands dirty a bit. With simple actions, like reacting when something wrong is said on LFS. So that journalists understand what they are talking about? Like making videos to explain to others (we already know) how awesome this game is. LFS became invisible (also) because its community became invisible.

I think a slight rebranding would really help, maybe a tweak of the logo, a tweak to the name and doing promotional videos.

This would require time and effort that would be taken away from the sim or bringing more people in but it would benefit Scavier as a whole.

Now that Rockingham getting some publicity again thanks to Cinch, maybe look at a promotion with them i.e. Side by side comparison drives with a caterham and one of the LFS equivalents.

If it's done with a dev version of the sim, showing off the lighting and all the new logo ident updates, it would be a free bit of advertising and promotes LFS to a market that may not have known it existed or had forgotten about it.

Quote from Chunkiegg :

Now that Rockingham getting some publicity again thanks to Cinch, maybe look at a promotion with them i.e. Side by side comparison drives with a caterham and one of the LFS equivalents.
.

This video already exists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlgrZkopgCQ
But it would be good to have a new one with the graphics update.

Quote from Iginla :

Can you blame people, though? It feels abandoned outside of this community when the tyre physics have been in development for the past 14 years for example. While the new additions like the mod system keeps the community alive for now, there is absolutely no incentive for new drivers to join. When a reviewer or a person that used to be here long time ago and who decides to visit the forum, does anything here really show that the sim is alive and well? While I appreciate the roots of my simracing career, I just get laughed by others when I mention them about LFS. And I think that says enough about the state of the sim.

It do be like that. LFS just couldn't keep up with the changes that other simgames brought to the table and here we are, bragging about being able to fill 1 server for an event. Bruhh

Quote :

This video already exists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlgrZkopgCQ
But it would be good to have a new one with the graphics update.Smile

Yeah exactly!

And if the LFS car is closely matched to the real world Caterham, it would be an interesting comparison, especially if the lighting conditions are similar etc and using VR.

It's selling the sim and makes for some cool helmet cam shots in the real world footage

It would really push LFS to the forefront again and also make people realise that the sim is still relevant

I think this is a real subject, thanks Scawen for creating the separate thread.

Quote from k_badam :

I think LFS' looks are more of a strong point instead of a weak point. It's not super flashy with loads of motion blur and lens flare, but it looks very real.

As a graphics programmer in the industry, I wouldn't have as much work if that was the case for the vast majority of people. LFS Forums is actually the only place where I see such an argument being made.
I can agree on the fact that with relatively little on the visual, LFS achieve a really impressive amount of immersion, but the current graphics are still out of the public standard for 2023. Without talking about ray tracing or that kind of cutting edge stuff, the looks actively contribute to the "old game" feeling for the general audience, despite still being updated and worked on.
At best people seems think the devs maintain the game with small stuffs to please the community but no major stuff.

IMO, after tyre physics are done, graphics should be a real priority to change the public perception of the game.
My humble opinion on what would be the most important/influential on final image starting from what I see from latest screenshots of the next update, sorted by priority:

Spoiler - click to reveal

- A Global Illumination solution, now that the engine switched to dynamic time of day, indirect lighting got really flat with almost uniform color everywhere in the shadow, a GI solution is really necessary to fix that. Maybe something probe based with progressive updates as the time progresses.

- Image Based Lighting, I don't know what is implemented right now for indirect specular on environments and car for things that are glossy but not perfect mirrors, but it seems really limited or too low precision. Having Reflection probes disposed around the tracks with proper convolution would help with the flatness of the scene in shadowed area and better understand the surface materials

- Screen Space Ambient Occlusion (I recommend using Ground Truth Ambient Occlusion), will help with breaking the flatness of the presentation and better understand depth and geometric detail.

- Motion Blur (from McGuire12 and all the improvements from Jimenez14), yes, it's a racing game, and it helps convey motion and add smoothness to the presentation, which is key to make it look realistic (and look better on video too due to compression).

- Temporal Anti Aliasing, when you implement motion blur, you'll have motion vectors available, so temporal anti-aliasing is a quick win that can allow to have better anti aliasing quality than MSAA (as handle more type of aliasing instead of only geometric aliasing) for way less performance. Adds a bit of smoothness to the presentation that is typical of modern games.

- Volumetric Fog, now that you implemented Atmospheric Scattering for sky rendering and shadow maps, you should have everything needed to add this, which would add a lot of depth and realism to the scene, by properly connecting the sky to the environment

And on the subject of name change, I would totally be down to have a name change along with a new logo and slight revisit of the game UI to break the public perception of the game being the same since 2002.

Quote from nacim :

I think this is a real subject, thanks Scawen for creating the separate thread...

What you say is relevant and my remarks do not detract from the interest of your professional vision .

However, a graphical update is already planned and announced. I don't know if this update will bring LFS up to 2023 standards? Everyone knows the importance of the visual challenge and knows the current graphics deficiencies of LFS, as well as their consequences on the image of the game.

Although, like k_badam, I am one of those who adapt best to the current graphics, I hope that this graphical update will improve the perception of the game for all its users, current and future. But it always comes back to the same point: ask the devs to do what they already do; to do it faster; to do it differently; to do it over and over again before you've even finished, etc. It's a never-ending story that has been going on for 20 years. I think we have to change the paradigm.

The graphical appearance of LFS contributes to the problem described in the topic title chosen by Scawen. But that doesn't explain everything. LFS has unique qualities that are misunderstood and/or despised by some Net commentators.

On the other hand, part of the community seems to have forgotten its qualities and dreams of seeing LFS look like other big games. Devs are caught between a rock and a hard place chasing a train they will never catch up with. (that the devs correct me if I say something stupid) LFS will never be at the level of the current big productions. It is a question of resources (financial and human). But it is also a question of identity.

It is this strong identity that we must work on, reflect on, improve and communicate. The rest is cosmetic, ephemeral, fluctuating, common to all games. This is just the great challenge of creation in the face of technological progress.

Quote from k_badam :

I think LFS' looks are more of a strong point instead of a weak point. It's not super flashy with loads of motion blur and lens flare, but it looks very real. The lighting needs improving, and some models could do with texture updates and higher detail, but these things will come. LFS looks and feels very organic, and with the new updates in the pipeline I believe it will be the most realistic looking sim there is.

Couldn't find better words. It looks and it feels organic, and that makes it for me. You can feel the car and all the forces involved in sports driving.

Yes but no. Once your tires get pretty hot it becomes a soap physics simulator.

Quote from Chunkiegg :

Yeah exactly!

And if the LFS car is closely matched to the real world Caterham, it would be an interesting comparison, especially if the lighting conditions are similar etc and using VR.

It's selling the sim and makes for some cool helmet cam shots in the real world footage

It would really push LFS to the forefront again and also make people realise that the sim is still relevant

I agree, but it's not magic .
This video is already 7 years old. It was on Youtube and on the Video page of this site. You hadn't seen it and you wished it existed !

7 years ago, when this video was released, the gap in graphics quality between LFS and other games was less noticeable. And the broadcast of this video did not change anything. Such videos are indispensable. It reassures those who seek absolute realism. LFS also needs to provide evidence of realism. But on this ground, I doubt that LFS will ever be able to achieve with the big productions which buy licenses from manufacturers and racing events and which have dozens of real laser tracks. This is the fight of David against Goliath.

The good news is that LFS has other strengths that purely reproductive reality games will never have.

LFS is creative, and that makes the difference. LFS is accessible to everyone. Because inexpensive and easy to run with a small computer. LFS is independent, no need to use third party software to run it. LFS has all the assets to become again today the great popular game that it was. And he can emerge strengthened from this heritage.

Quote from mbutcher :

I started an LFS review (not just a review, more of a showcase/discussion) video about 4 years ago, but I stalled on progress and never finished it. That was mainly because I didn't think it would be worth the effort if it only bounced around the LFS community. Every time I watch a "review" of LFS that gets it wrong, it makes me want to finish it... Maybe this time I will, even if only a handful of non-LFS players watch it. At least it will be based in fact, from a long time fan.

Not letting those who don't know speak in place of those who know is a very good idea.

Can you tell us more? Do you need anything to finish faster (other than motivation )? Reruns? More in-game videos? Testimonials from players? Interview developers ? Help with video editing? Something else ?

Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

LFS is accessible to everyone. Because inexpensive and easy to run with a small computer.

Those days are long gone with the argument that LFS can be ran on anything....- just because that's kind of irrelevant. Your average user has enough PC power to run way more demanding games and it's not really a selling point anymore. Even a PC that cost approx 1k eur in 2016 now would be worth what, 150 eur? and it would run something like AC on mods ez.

Of course they think LFS is abandoned by the developers when lfs havent had any updates since S3 release... only mods and that one is meh

All the promises and nice looking pictures about new tracks,day/night videos,yet nothing is out and seems like it will stay like that for a while

Quote from MousemanLV :

Those days are long gone with the argument that LFS can be ran on anything....- just because that's kind of irrelevant. Your average user has enough PC power to run way more demanding games and it's not really a selling point anymore. Even a PC that cost approx 1k eur in 2016 now would be worth what, 150 eur? and it would run something like AC on mods ez.

What you say is correct. But some players hesitate between S2 & S3 for a difference of less than 7 euros...

On the other hand, it is clear that many videos on LFS visible on the Net are made with minimal graphics and therefore (probably) with less powerful computers.

Why are you here ? And not on AC ? For example ? While you have a racing beast ?

Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

Why are you here ? And not on AC ? For example ? While you have a racing beast ?

I play AC as well but I play LFS for drift purposes mostly. The drift community is pretty okay and it's a lot of fun to just chill on drift servers with friends. I play more for the nostalgia than anything. The racing scene in LFS is pretty dead and competition is pretty much owned by S1DUS guys or Upsas from B2R

Quote from MousemanLV :

I play AC as well but I play LFS for drift purposes mostly. The drift community is pretty okay and it's a lot of fun to just chill on drift servers with friends.

You see ? You also know how to say positive things sometimes !

Quote from Viperakecske :

Of course they think LFS is abandoned by the developers when lfs havent had any updates since S3 release... only mods and that one is meh

All the promises and nice looking pictures about new tracks,day/night videos,yet nothing is out and seems like it will stay like that for a while

The problems you are talking about exist. The devs have explained this several times. And we have had recent developments. Even if there too, there are things to say (there is always something to say about everything. It's endless)

But the "journalist" of the video imagines that the game is abandoned by the devs and that the community manages it alone, without even checking the info on LFS.net?! This is a problem that goes beyond the small internal world of LFS. Regardless of the current state of the game.

Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

The problems you are talking about exist. The devs have explained this several times. And we have had recent developments. Even if there too, there are things to say (there is always something to say about everything. It's endless)

But the "journalist" of the video imagines that the game is abandoned by the devs and that the community manages it alone, without even checking the info on LFS.net?! This is a problem that goes beyond the small internal world of LFS. Regardless of the current state of the game.

You just won't understand it because you have only been around since 2021.

Quote from MousemanLV :

You just won't understand it because you have only been around since 2021.

Appearances are sometimes deceiving, young padawan .

If, indeed, I was never active here before 2021, I know LFS from its very first demo release, back then released on CDROM with now defunct real paper game magazines. I later followed the VW Scirocco episode with great interest. Especially since I had owned the first version of this car and was planning eventually (I didn't, luckily) to buy the new one. Today this car is an ancestor that is not even manufactured by Volkswagen anymore. But never got into LFS. I didn't miss any of the procrastination and setbacks in the development of LFS.

When I was able to make a new small place in my life for virtual races, I also thought that LFS had disappeared. But I checked the source (an old man reflex, I guess). During these few years of interruption (I was not in prison, I worked too much) the world of car simulation had changed a lot. I could have played anything that exists.

I didn't return to LFS "out of nostalgia" but because (at its level), despite its shortcomings and imperfections, LFS has something unique. Even more unique today than 20 years ago. (for good reasons, I specify ).

Quote from MousemanLV :

You just won't understand it because you have only been around since 2021.

Somewhat same applies to Flotch and others...havent played lfs in 10years time but still praising Scavier,no hate

Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

Appearances are sometimes deceiving, young padawan .

If, indeed, I was never active here before 2021, I know LFS from its very first demo release, back then released on CDROM with now defunct real paper game magazines. I later followed the VW Scirocco episode with great interest. Especially since I had owned the first version of this car and was planning eventually (I didn't, luckily) to buy the new one. Today this car is an ancestor that is not even manufactured by Volkswagen anymore. But never got into LFS. I didn't miss any of the procrastination and setbacks in the development of LFS.

When I was able to make a new small place in my life for virtual races, I also thought that LFS had disappeared. But I checked the source (an old man reflex, I guess). During these few years of interruption (I was not in prison, I worked too much) the world of car simulation had changed a lot. I could have played anything that exists.

I didn't return to LFS "out of nostalgia" but because (at its level), despite its shortcomings and imperfections, LFS has something unique. Even more unique today than 20 years ago. (for good reasons, I specify ).

God you sound like an old man who is experiencing your 2nd mid life crisis. Get over it, the statistics speak otherwise about this game. It's a fun game but the golden times were already over in 2014. While the industry moves forward and offers more and more stuff for the simracing titles, LFS is just stuck. Not that it's a bad thing (just because a lot of you praise it and are stuck in some 2009 mindset).