Quote from Evolution_R :

Well, I can find or buy this model from another place - in that case? Or I should recreate it by pictures from scratch? I mean how someone would know if the model is ripped from Forza or made from scratch if not told so? I think this is more Mazda's copyright infringement than Forza's.

It's actually quite easy to determine whether the model has been ripped from another game. 3D models have wireframes and it's quite impossible to have two models of the same car with 100% of the same wireframe.

And ripping parts of other games is basically piracy. You don't have the rights to redistribute any part of that game, period, it's probably stated in any game's terms of use.

Quote from Evolution_R :

So, simple said - we can have mods, but they should be made from scratch and have a different names, emblems, logos and badges?

Made from scratch at the very least. Different emblem/logo/badge makes it less likely to infringe on any copyrights or trademarks.

Quote from gu3st :

I think this is where mods are always in this weird grey area, which is why I escalated that it's a potential risk for Scawen to be officially sanctioning this in some capacity.

I don't think that there is any risk for the development. If there was any...Rockstar and Kunos would be close to bankrup, their modding community is huge, compared to the LFS one and trust me, they don't make them from zero in the 3D platform. And these mods aren't officials, right? But hey, this doesn't mean, that I support people, who steal products from others.

As for the main point of the thread. I think that their is a lot of positives and some negatives with the VOB mods. Yeah, the game is more attractive...everyone out there, which is looking for a racing game want to drive a BMW, not XR or FZ. But we have to think about the servers issue, because some of them are server friendly, some of them are not.

I really think that making the mods allowed, like you did some hours ago would boost the activity a lot. Anyways, these mods are out there from ages and they did nothing, but bringing people in and playing the game.

There's a distinction though. Kunos or Rockstar have never openly supported hosting mods on their own platforms, which removes the liability from themselves.

LFS hosting a forum for them, with link sharing of content directly derived from others IP could put Scawen at risk.

Quote from gu3st :

There's a distinction though. Kunos or Rockstar have never openly supported hosting mods on their own platforms, which removes the liability from themselves.

LFS hosting a forum for them, with link sharing of content directly derived from others IP could put Scawen at risk.

I hate to interrupt but AC forum has a dedicated sub-forum for modding discussion with real-life cars and tracks released on there too: https://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php#modding-discussions.21

I would assume user-created content that include real-life brands is ok, as long as it's not being profited from directly. I would expect car manufacturers to attack these things at a whole different scale trying to shut down sites and getting content creators sanctioned if it was illegal to create these. Rockstar just doesn't like modding, they try to make it harder with each game, but eventually people find a way of doing it.

After all these years of development, this step should perhaps not be rushed. An intermediate step might be better.
You could probably keep the collision model and still mod ...

Something like an XRGT convertible for example. Or slight modifications and embellishments within your own LFS car fleet. I'm afraid if you don't set up rules, trucks will soon be driving through South City. And before there is no official mod support, I think the cosmetic mods are the only ones that can be used.

And who knows ... Maybe this will even open a way for the community to help the Devs. With a "re-design" of the LFS vehicles.

Unsure if these will be relevant to any concerns

Quote from nikopdr :

I hate to interrupt but AC forum has a dedicated sub-forum for modding discussion with real-life cars and tracks released on there too: https://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php#modding-discussions.21

AC came across the same issue and the main modding sections were closed in 2016.

Thanks for the discussion. If it was only about VOB mods now I'd just drop it. But this is also relevant to how user-created content may be supported in the future.

What is and isn't clear (to me) at this point:

- The copyright infringement issue seems quite clear. I'm sure that it is not OK to copy and publish someone else's mesh without permission.

- Also clear: It would obviously be fine for users to create fictional cars.

- Also clear: Developers cannot create clearly identifiable representations of real cars and sell them. Permission is required from the owner of the intellectual property (the design of the car).

- What is not clear to me is the law that applies when user-created content representing real cars is shared without charge and how this can affect the provider of the sharing platform (us).

Hey! Developers should think carefully about the topic they created yesterday! btw...
Think about increasing the poly limit! It will be very useful in creating vehicle modifications in very good quality!
The LFS is unlikely to be like Assetto Corsa - in terms of modifications - but come on, I recommend opening the doors for vehicle modders. VOB modifications allow for more fun with the ride.

Have a nice day! bye

To be honest without legal consultation the whole discussion about the legality of VOB mods and what sharing platforms need to make sure to be safe will lead nowhere. Even with international agreements local implementations and the general framework of the national laws differ and cause edge cases only experts may be aware of.

EDIT: Also legally precisely defined terms might differ from the colloquial use of these terms and without training one might not be aware of it.

Quote from Scawen :

- What is not clear to me is the law that applies when user-created content representing real cars is shared without charge and how this can affect the provider of the sharing platform (us).

Might wanna look at Asetto Corsa for that and how they handle it.

Of course copying models from other games without permission is not legal but it happens nevertheless. (Happens right now with LFS too) - Supporting this kind of a discussion while not allowing copied models on the forum is the right way to go IMO.

I'm not sure if there's no liability towards LFS, but this is what BeamNG does:

They have full mod support in their game with some kind of repository online where you can download games (also in-game). In this collection are only mods that are self-made and not copied, or actual brands.

Mods that are a copy from other games are posted on the forum with a download link to some third-party storage site. Still not sure if LFS has any liabilities this way, but it seems logical.

But still, I don't really see the use of VOB mods, it's a pain in the ass to maintain if you want to go online again, or wanna use several 'different cars' that are based on the same base car. Also don't really see why this should suddenly be allowed to be discussed. As long as there is not proper mod support with additional cars this is kinda useless I think.

Quote from DMN_ :

btw...
Think about increasing the poly limit! It will be very useful in creating vehicle modifications in very good quality!

Yes, this. Please.

Quote from Evolution_R :

So, simple said - we can have mods, but they should be made from scratch and have a different names, emblems, logos and badges?

For the different names and emblems, this question is to Scawen, I don't think any manufacturer has anything to do with LFS but for the models, definitely

Scawen, modifications are an "addition" to the game. They are installed for their own use to be able to see something other than the serial model in the game. Nowadays there is such a trend that mods (e.g. vehicles) are better used for 'fun' than what the game creator gives. Sorry .. this is not 2005 or another .. These are times where people need new products, something that will allow them to change their existing playing for something more ..

To yesterday's topic regarding the modified VOB .. The development team should clearly write that it allows to insert VOB mods, but with modifications of the original models ... (diffusers, additions, other steering wheels, other lamps etc., custom gauges for Lazy Dashboard etc.)

Nobody wrote THAT VEHICLES WITH A REAL BRAND CANNOT BE ENTERED (I mean Honda, Nissan, BMW, Porsche etc.)

For personal, offline use I think we can use (and make videos with it) any model (mesh) we find on the internet, including from another games, but with the current polygon limits is close to impossible to recreate a detailed model, so please think about this.

I think it's better to cancel the decision if it cause more harm and uncertainty than good.

Quote from GreyBull :

AC came across the same issue and the main modding sections were closed in 2016.

I see in that AC forum section, posting stopped abruptly (sections closed) on Jun 9, 2016.
https://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php?forums/3d-car-models.24/

I'd be interested to know the background story behind that.

Quote from bowst :

I think it's better to cancel the decision if it cause more harm and uncertainty than good.

True but the real problem is as I mentioned here:

Quote from Scawen :

If it was only about VOB mods now I'd just drop it. But this is also relevant to how user-created content may be supported in the future.

I know a lot of friends who make mods and they enjoy making different vehicles.
They will be very happy if you let such a thing.
They are looking forward to the new update that is coming now and they have already started making new models.

The only possibility I can see would be heavy moderation. All threads / content would have to be reviewed by a moderator before it would go public. At least that would introduce some kind of checking.

But generally this is something where clear rules of what can be posted here / what is allowed are needed and those need to be respected by the modders. Post the stuff that meets the requirements here and the other stuff can be found as it is now.

edit:
Would it be possible to have some kind of terms of agreement for new threads in that section?
So you have to manually click a checkbox before you can upload your content.

Anyway, as already mentioned above, some legal advise might be useful here.

You know, a few weeks back I started a thread - or tried to start a thread discussing similar topics regarding mods. My main concern was having some sort of standards put into place to avoid compatibility issues.... And of course it was treated like I was committing Heresy so I said, "F***i it" and let it die. But I still think that y'all developers need to get ahead of the curve on modding before it gets started. Looks like that's the case. I never thought about the legal hassles of people importing other cars from other games into LFS though. Or getting static from car manufacturers. I guess I should've remembering Unreal Tournament (quake?) and Continental Airlines. Oh well the important thing is y'all are trying to plan ahead on this and not just dicking around with tires.

Quote from Scawen :

Thanks for the discussion. If it was only about VOB mods now I'd just drop it. But this is also relevant to how user-created content may be supported in the future.

What is and isn't clear (to me) at this point:

- The copyright infringement issue seems quite clear. I'm sure that it is not OK to copy and publish someone else's mesh without permission.

- Also clear: It would obviously be fine for users to create fictional cars.

- Also clear: Developers cannot create clearly identifiable representations of real cars and sell them. Permission is required from the owner of the intellectual property (the design of the car).

- What is not clear to me is the law that applies when user-created content representing real cars is shared without charge and how this can affect the provider of the sharing platform (us).

If it's user created and shared without charge and both the model creator and game developer's do not try to endorse or affiliate both model or game to the real life manufacturer (ford, citreon ect) then according the attorney's comment in the screenshot i posted you wont be held liable.

Maybe requiring that Mods which are shared have a Creative Commons license attached, also allowing mods to be used but not formally supporting them or sharing them on lfsforum should protect you legally as developers of LFS

hello, how to integrate a model that we made even in the game? is there a procedure? thanks in advance

It will be wise to allow (for the time being) modifications only to the existing models without any collision box tweaks, if someone want to make detailed versions (for ex) of all existing cars he should be allowed to do so, but it needs a strong OOS check.

As for real cars models, I personally prefer the more conservative approach, means new car = new slot with server to client check or automatic download if possible, plus heavy moderation which means no real logo or skin, until there is more clarifications about this copyright issues.

OR keeping tight encryption on the existing cars to avoid inconsistencies (only Scavier can update those), but allowing only the additions of fictional or real car-like mods, in this case we should have two formats for original encrypted (VOB) and the open additions (ex MOB).

In any case we need tight moderation.