Except nobody knows car dynamics. It's one thing to create a car model, but to create properly driving cars.. it's very difficult. Look at the boatloads of rFactor mods that gave cars unrealistic car dynamics? Look at iRacing, boatloads of people (IQ's withheld) who pay them monthly and the car dynamics there aren't good either. Project CARS, where the developers think they're on the correct track but have gaping flaws in their model (and their fundemental thinking behind the model). The list goes on. LFS, NKP and (theoretically, because Kunos) AC are in a very select group that does most things very well and in a consistent manner.

Creating a car model is easy. Setting up the actual vehicle dynamics is the hard part because a lot of people will believe a car is "correct" even though it's not for a variety of reasons. Reasons like "It's easy to drive" or "It's difficult to drive" or "I paid $15 for this car, and I'm gonna like it." Most people take any of those opinions and regardless of its accuracy, take it into truth.

I think there's exactly 2 people on these forums who are actually qualified to properly create a cars dynamics. Monsterator (sic) Bob Smith and Neils <long dutch lastname>.

Quote from Fordman :

Ping should not be an issue, I have Fibre Baby Yeah

Time zone's might be an issue, but over a weekend, might make it

Fordie

I am probably looking at a good 3-400 ping. Always hard to drive tight when you see things that long after they actually happen

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

Except nobody knows car dynamics. It's one thing to create a car model, but to create properly driving cars.. it's very difficult.

LFS already have a good physics. What need to do is just change wheelbase, power, torque etc. For example: take tweak, tweak xfg as golf/civic/whatever and you will get car dynamics close to real one.

Creating a vehicle, from a numbers perspective, it's essentially very easy. Just research the numbers, and type them in, right? Sadly, a lot of the data is very difficult to research. It's how you make up that unknown data that separates a good mod from a bad one (assuming the bad ones even tried). This is where knowledge, understanding, and simply driving it comes into play.

It's the sims that let you play with too much of this unknown data in the vehicle script (e.g. tyres) that gives people such a royal capacity to screw it up. In the case of the LFS tyre model, the technical parameters that matter are generated from simpler, easily researched values (i.e. LFS currently just uses dimensions, which is very limited, though the new model, should it ever go public, is set to address these limitations). This is limits the accuracy of the vehicle but at the same time, means it should at least be vaguely correct in this department.

Other sims give you full control of tyres, and lots of people don't know what is correct in this department. I worked with the guy who used to be employed by SimBin to do their handling, and the description of his learning process and the curves he made partly explains why cars just snap out in GTR (for example).

The ideal vehicle editor presents you with all the real world numbers that you can research, or measure yourself, and generates all the other data needed from their, with some advanced option screen to override aspects of the generated data in rare case you have a real value to put in.

Quote from Gr1jkeeRU :

Ok, wait for a few more years for it.
Yes, crappy mods is integral part of modding. But there's a good modders too.

Yet, those ppl are not qualified to do the pshycics stuff and everything..It would result a bus having UF1 handling.

The thing is, modders don't need to do physics in LFS. They only need to give the cars some of the main parameters: body size and mass, suspension arm types and lenghts, tire size, engine specs and things like that. You don't need to input any excel spreadsheet data to get realistic physics or entire tire model for a car, that's already all in the unified physics engine. It's a bit funny how people still presume LFS physics work on a car-by-car basis and think that modding shouldn't be allowed because of it.

And that's also the whole point of allowing LFS for modding - the physics would still be as fantastic as they always were and the community would get the content it desires.

Also, the physics argument doesn't hold any water over third party tracks, which don't rely on physics at all.

if you look at the behaviour of some members of the forum i can understand the frustration on the side of the devs, but in my eyes they should not reduce the communication to a point of near silence. the ongoing discussions and communication between the community and the devs is a big part of what made this game so special over the last years. lfs is by far the game that sits on my hdd for the longest time - what othe game are you playing for that many years, and it is not even finished?
the devs should not give up this special relationship to the loyal community just because of some crap talking people.
because lfs is getting bigger it is fairly normal that the crowd also gets bigger and my reccomendation is to maybe improve the moderation on this board a bit and ask the devs politely if they could do something like a community day every month or every second month.
even if there is nothing "new" to see, many forum members would be satisfied to hear anything from the devs no mater if the just say "hi, to all" or if scaven tells us that he is heavy into coding, just say something.

another thing i still cannot understand is the desicion not to release the vw scirocco just because of the physics change and the fixed gear box (?).
after all this time that reasons are not valid in my eyes. yes the dvs thought it would be easy to fix, but it wasn´t and that delay grew into forever.
when the new physics come out we probably have to learn to drive all cars a new way and that would also be the case for the scirocco. also the argument that the scirocco would not feel right with the current physics is not really a reason not to give it to us to play with it, because if the game physics are flawed then all the lfs cars are affected by this flaw.

if they cared about the community the would have released the lx8 and the scirocco as a "work in progress" subject to change and all would be happy.

now they play a dangerous game which could leave them with a brilliant game physics but with noone that is willing to play, because all are playing elsewhere.

personally i like open game architectures with mod abilities, just because of the lot of people that like to contibute free content to make good games great. i also understand and respect the love of the devs for quality, but there must be a way - maybe with tight moderation and rigid quality control - that user generated content can be brought into lfs.
it doesn´t have to be a open mod database (because of the lot of bad mods that pile up in open mod databases) - maybe a contest where people can show their efforts in moding and modelling and then the best entries can find a way into the game. maybe the devs will let some talented people help them solving problems and doing time consuming work.

some really big things that the human race has done would not be able to be done if they could not have used many man hours on that project.

peace, mo

Quote from Matrixi :

Also, the physics argument doesn't hold any water over third party tracks, which don't rely on physics at all.

That's a good point, though there is such a good thing as good and bad tracks, it is much more subjective. Real world tracks suffer from this too.

The main problem with user content is that the LFS business model is a free product where you purchase content. Though of course, the solution to this is rather obvious; to setup a 'content store', where users and devs receive a portion of the money each. This easily cuts out the bad mods, as they won't look good enough to ever get any sales. Of course this is a lot of work, having to create the store, stop being able to trade outside the store, getting it working online (version mismatches; automatic updating?), not to mention all the legal side. It would have huge benefits though; LFS would benefit from more content (alongside the more premium official content), a more active community, etc. Fragmentation is always an issue but it's better than nobody being online, surely?

I can't see it happening without more manpower though, and Scawen has stated that's exactly the direction he doesn't want to go.

There's one solution to fragmentation atleast. If they got LFS on Steam (which we all know isn't going to happen) then Steam Workshop could handle all the heavy lifting regarding mods and keeping everything synchronized.

Found a nice track/car? Subscribe to the mod and Steam takes care of downloading and keeping it up to date automatically. Can't join a server because you're missing some mods? Subscribe to it while in-game and Steam handles the rest and you're racing with fresh content in seconds.

But like I said, I believe hell will freeze over before we see LFS on Steam. It's just the most convenient and elegant solution to modding, if only the devs would be interested in allowing it.

It would be nice if LFS developers could make G27 RPM gauge work [the one on the wheel]!

Quote from Matrixi :

There's one solution to fragmentation atleast. If they got LFS on Steam (which we all know isn't going to happen) then Steam Workshop could handle all the heavy lifting regarding mods and keeping everything synchronized.
...

It's been my experience that the more freedom people have, the bigger mess they'll create. Making the life in such a mess easier with automatic content management might make it work for a while, but I'm afraid that things would eventually crash. All the CS 1.6 servers which require you to download all sorts of texture packs, custom models and sound banks just to have a poolday fragging afternoon spring to mind. Although this model is technically working, it's sort of annoying particularly for the casual players who don't sync their mods database too often.

Quote from MousemanLV :

It would be nice if LFS developers could make G27 RPM gauge work [the one on the wheel]!

Don't you have like at least two addons that can do just that?

There's Fanaleds and the C++ one that you (I think) have written.

Quote from MadCatX :

Don't you have like at least two addons that can do just that?

Fanaleds ain't working. LFS developers can make it happen.

Quote from MadCatX :

...
Although this model is technically working, it's sort of annoying particularly for the casual players who don't sync their mods database too often.

As it all happens automatically when you connect to the server or start your game, I can't see a huge issue here. If you don't feel like waiting a few moments while stuff downloads, then you don't have to subscribe to any mods and keep racing vanilla.

LFS won't die, won't be left by devs until they will make mp without master server possible. Still Scawen has to maintain it, and it costs i suppose. So either he is working on LFS to improve it, or to make it work without master server, because he won't simply shut it down. So sooner or later we will get SOMETHING, that's for sure.

Those who have moved onto different games and abandoned Live for Speed.... Do you believe the Majority of them will eventually come back after the news of the Classic Scirocco and Rockingham get released?
There will obviously always be a community in-game and on the forums, but will it ever rise to what it used to be? Doubt it.

I don't even know if this is the right thread to comment on about this, If it's not then 'I don't give two shits'

Hay guys

I know you all have good points, but these are now pointing in the direction of the wish list.

Please keep this thread, non argumentative, informative, and leaning towards that we, as a community would just like an update, no matter how small or big, just a continuous progress report would be nice, I think we all agreed on this?

Like somebody said, Scawen either doesn't have time, or is not the PR type, so ask somebody to do it. I know there is plenty of people on here that would take the time, of there own time to be a PR person to the community...I know I would

Cheers

Fordie

LFS on steam has been mentioned loads of times, I have raised it myself as well years back. The workshop in steam works great and community voting means you know which are the crap mods and which are good.

The points about the free demo raised are easily solved in that only registered used can use mods.

Would be great to see new tracks and cars and due to the way the LFS physics work I assume they would clamp stupid stuff out as you are limited to wheel base, width, engine, gearbox and the rest is just the car shell. Bit the old tool LFSTweak (or whatever it was called) allowed you to do.

I remember someone managed to inject different models into LFS via DX years back but was never released to public (Can't remember who but sure Bob will know, unless his memory is as bad as mine lol)

It could be argued mods might limit S3 sales if there are loads of cars and tracks available but again limit mods such that you have to have the highest reg level. So currently S1 users could not use mods only S2. When S3 comes out lock out S1 and S2 users from mods. Simple

The reason I stopped playing, probably true for others, is content. The games I play the most are ones where you can play something new as things remain fresh after you have explored. Oh how I would love to see Bathurst in LFS, my favorite track of all time, but that would only happen through mods

I agree one fix would at least start S3 with the VW and new track but I get the feel that S3 might be bigger than people expect if it sees the light of day. Given that the currenct tracks/models are so old I could imagine they might be in for a rework also but could be wrong.

Also on the comments about negative feedback from some in the community. It is the Internet and there are retards everywhere, goes with the territory. You just have accept them and not let them get to you.

Look at all the flack after the initial release of NKP, bet that almost destroyed Kunos, but he has bounced back and looks like new sim on the way. NKP was not bad, great sim, but lacked what makes LFS so great - great MP management and easy to find and connect to servers and the online stats etc.

I never played iRacing as the costs were just stupid. No matter how good it might be going for priced content and monthly fee never sat well for me. Pick one but both just feels like a con.

You know.. the other thing that we all (as selfish, entitled consumers) forget a bit as well is that Scawen has a family. I know from my parents, and even (potentially, in my near future) that having a family is time consuming and to be a good parent can be consuming. Especially with the work style of being at home... There's a very fine line between both extremes.. one of ignoring your family and being "OMG PROGRAMMING" 24/7 and "OMG FAMILY" 24/7.

A big part of that is finding that proper balance. Which (to no discredit to Scawen, as I find I have the same bi-polar attitude and am unable to find the correct balance) is a very difficult thing to do.

Yes we are all paying customers and we want LFS to succeed and develop and get better, none more than even the Developers want to see LFS succeed and prosper.. and as such we get anxious and pushy and we start obsessing over every baited word. "OMG VIC MADE A POST WITH 3 "S" CHARACTERS IN IT, S3 NEXT WEEK!" and we start degrading into retard land. And as we all know, you never go full retard.

:hidesbehi still waiting.....

At least Scawen hasn't gone all Phil Fish on us.

You never go full Phil Fish.

I think the situation would be totally different and much better if only the devs had enabled the community to create tracks. The devs could have focused on cars, physics and gameplay. Eric could have focused on whatever he focuses on nowadays. The sim would be fresh and it would have stayed fresh and up to date and competitive with other sims. There is absolutely no doubt whatsover that we wouldn't for example have laser scanned content in lfs if we would have addon tracks.

And before anyone says we don't want trillion bad tracks. I think lfs tracks are already well below average compared to what is considered average in rfactor for example. Having community created addon tracks would have not only increased the quantity of tracks and the amount of content in lfs expotentially but also the quality!

But the time has passed the point. I don't think lfs can be saved anymore. It's too late for literally anything. Does anyone even care anymore?

The fact is lfs development has been dead for years. I think the devs have moved on. And it shows. The content is from 2005 and the game is from 2006. That's 7 years without any new content (well couple of cars). Even netkar pro has gotten more patches and improvements during that 7 year time frame than lfs.

But that is not a bad thing. The positive thing is the "sim world" is now in a hell of lot better situation than it was in 2003-2006. We have many good sims and more is the on the way. And unlike 2003-2006 there are alternatives that are better in every single way. It is no longer choise of pretty cars and crappy physics or lfs. It is not even a choise anymore. Everything out there is better.

I personally wish lfs devs the very best in future. I got my moneys worth from s2 but I'm a bit sad that lfs died in this way.

Guys calm down, S3 is comming in few months