So if Button had not lifted: Are you saying that Jenson would have been causing "an avoidable collision"?

It's a straight!

And of course that is what Vettel is going to say. He's not going to suggest that he was intentionally trying to run Jenson off the road at 100mph+ by saying that he knew he was alongside him.

The BBC team said on several occasions that he probably would not get a penalty "because it's the run to the first corner". This is the only reason why he did not get a penalty, and imho, it's nonsense, and a dangerous precedent.

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

.. but you also have to look at all the chaos in the midfield at the start of a race and apply the rule equally to them. That's the difficulty.

I think if you thought any midfield runner was intentionally trying to run someone off the road, it wouldn't be hard to penalise them. You'd give benefit of the doubt, but surely these are the things that the rules are there to stop happening, not encourage. Protect the one getting run off the road, not the one doing the running off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... RhOEY&feature=related
The only difference is that where Rubens keeps going because of the pit exit, Button lifts because his only other option was recently mown. MSC was punished.

Quote from sinbad :

I think if you thought any midfield runner was intentionally trying to run someone off the road, it wouldn't be hard to penalise them. You'd give benefit of the doubt, but surely these are the things that the rules are there to stop happening, not encourage. Protect the one getting run off the road, not the one doing the running off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... RhOEY&feature=related
The only difference is that where Rubens keeps going because of the pit exit, Button lifts because his only other option was recently mown. MSC was punished.

Not saying I agree with the situation, but that's what it is.

I'm starting to like Vettel. He's showing some balls. He got squeezed on Monza, but was fortunate to have decent overlap and he made it and it looked fantastic.

Then here he squeezed Jenson and J wasn't fortunate enough to have decent overlap, so he had to back out of it. It looked something that Schumi would do and that's what I like.

Quote from JPeace :

Anyone notice the mathematics? If Jenson has wiped Vettel out there and then along with himself, Vettel would become Champion. Vettel had nothing to loose at the end of the day which is why he chose to make such movements across the track.

...except that the FIA can and will take points away from drivers for incidents like that (cf. Schumacher).

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

...except that the FIA can and will take points away from drivers for incidents like that (cf. Schumacher).

Doubt that. They didn't take any points away from Prost nor Senna back in 1990.

... but they did in 1997. Took all of them off him.

Quote from DieKolkrabe :

Also, consider the fact that all through his career, McLaren have supported him and he's been in consistently good equipment. Does he know what it is like to be in a bad car?

Did you not watch the '09 season?

or 2001

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

... but they did in 1997. Took all of them off him.

Would have been nothing like 97 bro.

Quote from DieKolkrabe :

Also, consider the fact that all through his career, McLaren have supported him and he's been in consistently good equipment. Does he know what it is like to be in a bad car?

He did have a dog of a car in early 2009, but even that ended up winning. What Hamilton hasn't had is decent grounding in F1 - straight into a top team, even if the car has not always been a winner.

I think Ron Dennis is to blame for this. Hamilton was given all the right moves going up the ladder and then landed a championship challenging car in his first year. Alarm bells started ringing for me when, in his first year, he referred to the "monkeys at the back" when talking about backmarkers. I wonder if he would have been better off being placed into a lower order team (Spyker, or whoever were around back then) to learn his trade and appreciate that the drivers in the worst team work a good deal harder than the front runners just to keep their cars on the track.

Sure, he would not have won 2008 WDC had that happened, but he could have reaped the benefits (and the titles) for years to come and perhaps become a more rounded and pleasant individual (see Button, or Alonso, or Hakkinen, or Senna etc)

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

....benefits (and the titles) for years to come and perhaps become a more rounded and pleasant individual (see Button, or Alonso, or Hakkinen, or Senna etc)

Senna a 'pleasant' person? Take your rose tinted glasses off. Senna was a ferocious person. He drove Prost off the circuit deliberately ffs, and he wasn't largely liked by the public outside of Brazil because they thought he was a nobhead.

Had the internet and media network we have now existed in the 80s and 90s they would have destroyed Senna.

Quote from DevilDare :

His whole mindset is in the wrong place. It is affecting his driving. He thinks he is the next RAP pop-glam star or something. Just look at him...

He probably thinks about the next time he can play hide the sausage with Nicole instead of concentrating on his driving.

Agree, even if i do not like him, I respect his talent, now he seams unfocused, if he worked in an office I would suspect a phone in his lap with facebook.

Maybe he just realized Button is faster than him and just wants to die....

Quote from Intrepid :

Senna a 'pleasant' person? Take your rose tinted glasses off. Senna was a ferocious person. He drove Prost off the circuit deliberately ffs, and he wasn't largely liked by the public outside of Brazil because they thought he was a nobhead.

Had the internet and media network we have now existed in the 80s and 90s they would have destroyed Senna.

He might have meant Bruno... however, Senna was, afaik, a tough guy at the track but a generous person not talking smack about drivers in slower cars.

Quote from Intrepid :

Senna a 'pleasant' person? Take your rose tinted glasses off. Senna was a ferocious person. He drove Prost off the circuit deliberately ffs, and he wasn't largely liked by the public outside of Brazil because they thought he was a nobhead.

Had the internet and media network we have now existed in the 80s and 90s they would have destroyed Senna.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXjyRet40tQ

1:00 in.

Do you know anything at all about Senna, or do you just crib other people's opinions from a position of rank ignorance? Have you read Sid Watkins' opinion of him for example - someone who actually knew him, which is what we're talking about rather than Joe Public's perception.

I assume you also think Schumacher was a humourless robot when he was hoovering up titles year after year?

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

I wonder if he would have been better off being placed into a lower order team (Spyker, or whoever were around back then) to learn his trade and appreciate that the drivers in the worst team work a good deal harder than the front runners just to keep their cars on the track.

Sounds like you want something like the Satellite teams in MotoGP (rookies may not race for the works team)

Sadly (for that idea) only Torro Rosso is such a team.

Dam Vettel has done it again a well deserved championship win.

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

Sure, he would not have won 2008 WDC had that happened, but he could have reaped the benefits (and the titles) for years to come and perhaps become a more rounded and pleasant individual (see Button, or Alonso, or Hakkinen, or Senna etc)

Do you know anything at all about Hamilton, or do you just crib other people's opinions from a position of rank ignorance?

Stop being a hypocrite.

I sighted Senna because a lot of what was written about him at the time didn't reflect his true character. And had we had the internet now it would have been even worse. Plenty of people, at the time, had a massive dislike for Senna and HIS character. Time has eroded that though.

Quote from Intrepid :

Do you know anything at all about Hamilton, or do you just crib other people's opinions from a position of rank ignorance?

Stop being a hypocrite.

I sighted Senna because a lot of what was written about him at the time didn't reflect his true character. And had we had the internet now it would have been even worse. Plenty of people, at the time, had a massive dislike for Senna and HIS character. Time has eroded that though.

I pointed out an example where Hamilton revealed his true character a few posts above.

You described Senna as a "ferocious person", you didn't say that it was an inaccurate perception from the media - that's what you thought of him. I think you're arguing with yourself now.

Let me know how that goes.

Regardless of whether that particular theoretical incident would have been like '97, the point is that Vettel still has to be a good boy throughout the remaining 4 races of the season. That's why they didn't give him the trophy yet.

Quote from Intrepid :

MP4-24 was a heap of shite for the first half of the year, and in 2001 McLaren provided him with shite gear for the World Karting Championship campaign. He knows how to deal with shit equipment.

His main problem is he has a gf who's getting brudy and he has put himself too far in the celebrity limelight. I knew as soon as he got with nicole it's be bad bad bad news.

MP4-24 was a heap of shite? Then why was Heikki able to do okay with it then (4 points in F1 is an achievement)? Karting? I have exactly....zero knowledge of that but I'll take your word for it. My point though is that he's been in great equipment in GP2 (ART) and F1 (McLaren which is regarded as a great team).

09 wasn't that bad though was it? He got a winin Hungary and another one in Singapore.

No, his problem is not solely who he chooses to date....but the way his management are pushing him, like you said, into the celebrity limelight. Which is the wrong direction for him, he should be concentrating on racing and keeping his nose clean.

Quote from BlueFlame :

Oh get over it Massa isn't shit compared to Hamilton.

What you meant is, it's not the first time, they've ruined EACH OTHERS race and "oh did anyone else notice that Massa was shit BEFORE his accident at Hungary and after it still shit?"

So in your opinion if a driver is faster / more talented than another that gives him the right to drive how the hell he likes?? Nice well adjusted moral standards you have there.

Whether Massa is worse than Hamilton has absolutely nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of how Hamilton conducts himself on track..

Seriously..how old are you?


You can defend Hamilton as much as you like, but there is no denying the FACT that he has been involved in more collisions, (and that's ignoring the other non contact incidents), this year than most other drivers in the field have had thier ENTIRE CAREERS !! But I'm sure you'll twist that fact in to some paranoid delusion about how everyones out to get Hamilton.

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

"monkeys at the back"

Although this comment from Hamilton riled me, I sat back and then understood he's talking as-if to say 'cheeky monkeys' which would insinuate he's talking about mid and rear pack opportunistic driving, which we can all relate to. He wasn't refering to the back pack drivers and teams as idiots or untalented. But because of how he entered F1 people took it out of context. Myself included, but then I thought, why would he say it maliciously? Maybe others should think like this too.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

That's why they didn't give him the trophy yet.

They don't give the trophy until the end of the season. Did you not know that? It would be somewhat a kick in the teeth to everyone that turns up in the remaining races if Vettel already has the WDC trophy. Plus it's part of the END OF SEASON ceremony.

He clearly meant it maliciously. There is no way it can be interpreted as a camp 'oh, you cheeky monkey' context at all.