It makes a lot of sense. iRacing cars behave very accurately. The Skippy is downright spooky to drive because it is crazily realistic in it's behavior.
But putting a cardboard box on some casters and rolling down a hill in it would feel more like a car than iRacing.
iRacing cars just do a terrible job of communicating what the car is doing. The audio is fine. But the force feedback and visual feedback (head bob) is terrible. The head "physics" only communicates bumps, but it needs to communicate G forces as well. The force feedback just goes slack when the car starts to really work, and doesn't warn of impending slides at all. It's like there is no self aligning torque to transmit and all the force in the wheel is coming from the caster.
That combined with dodgy slide behavior makes it too unforgiving and a chore to drive. I haven't raced for two weeks - I just don't feel engaged by the sim any more.
LFS, Net Kar Pro, and surprisingly GT5 all give very convincing feeling from the cars and actually feel like driving, even if there are problems with all 3.
My two cents: visual and force feedback are very subjective.
I love LFS, but have to admit: after playing a while with iracing I find it more realistic AND feedback suits me better (with some tweak of course, but I've been tweaking LFS for a long time now .
The way you can "feel" and see the track in iracing is indeed a good job. Comparing to that LFS tracks are bit flat, sorry to say.
We are all waiting for new LFS version, meanwhile it might be worthy to check out some other software that is modern and more "up to date". I have done so, and despite of being expensive, iracing simply seems to be better. But again, that's all subjective...
I hope you don't mind I'm not following "I curse you, iracing" trend here
No it's DK's post. Though so far I've learned nothing, and it's an extremely long post. He's basically explaining how tyres should work in real life, rather than addressing the problems with his NTM. :/
I've never made a negative post about iRacing here before, but that post was epic bullshit.
I learnt that kind of information about about polymer's at GCSE level.
I have never fp'ed so hard in my life.
That whole article was just PR PR PR PR PR PR PR. Trying to confuse a lot people by using a wall of words, but giving no f.u.cking information at all. All he essentially said he's using the brush model technique, well done sir.
I'd also like to say that tire modeling is a very very very very very very complex issue therefore they will never get it exact but, there is no need to treat us as fools.
I'm tired, but it sound like exactly the same descriptions of how a theoretical tire works, as it does after a short while googling of a brush model. Not saying that that is how it is coded/modeled just that DK's post is pointless, just a compete waste of time.
Overall the upcoming improvements seem to be:
-additional fixes to sidewall (torsional) stiffness calculations
-breakthrough in the modeling of tread compound properties, those that cause temps to oscillate around "tire warmers temps" and "working temps" (for road/softer compounds)
He talked about heat air-convection coefficients, but it seems it's not clear yet how to improve them. An issue that he didn't seem to address was the discussion on the large discrepancy with real ideal tire pressures.
I agree with what DK said here:
That applies exactly to what happened when they released a physics improvement for the Radical and the Mazda (I think was back in 2008), that as a side-effect made them handle terribly, as it opened a "pandora box" of other not so well modeled effects. Wrongs were compensating each other, so when one was fixed, the other(s) become more apparent. But this is the only approach to make progress in the long run.
Yeah, and some of his explanations are just laughable. The center of the tire should never be the hottest, let alone "always" like he says.
I read the whole thread before coming to a conclusion. Yeah I actually do that. In short, I will just say it was a waste of time reading. He bypassed everything, and covered it up with tire knowledge we can find in a book. What about all that real life data?
And about the fall off. I have no idea what he is meaning. Unless he is getting everything backwards. It seems the tires should go through a heat peak? I mean atleast a heat cycle. I know they do in road to some degree. I'm not saying it should be like the ones in LFS because those are wrong, but right now they seem to go through them in iRacing ovals, however the grip is opposite. Tires are hot = no grip, tires are cold = max grip. The first lap is always the fastest, and even the outlap is faster, then it falls off like it should .1 per lap, but then it just stops. Then later in the run it sometimes even becomes faster. Nothing is making sense, and this post by Dave just concludes that things are just not right. Sadly I renewed for a year in May or June. Forgot to uncheck the box for auto-renew.
Scipy likes blu-ray porn. But also, he likes good stuff to sleep to, not this mess.
I feel your pain Jason. Most of the iR "followers" (sorry I don't use fanboys often) are falling into DK's lap. However I loved Brian Schoenburg's response.
First pro/DWC response, loved it.
And Dave, I like your posts too and agree completely with then from what I read. How Grant (whoever the f**k that is) is saving slides and running his fastest laps on lap 2 or 3 is just laughable. I can't tell if he is trying to down us, or Grant?
What the hell... some people are so hellbent on negativity that if they touched my car they'd drain the battery.
Just because YOU learned that at GCSE levels, remember that not all the drooling Amercan Nascar fans () did too. In fact, he specifically STATED that it was a massive oversimplification. Did you expect him to write a thesis on years of study and post it on the forum? :doh: He's not treating anyone like a fool and at least you can tell he has passion for his work.
In fact he said that too - and explained why it's NOT RIGHT that that's how the garage data shows upe in iRacing, and he hopes to fix it.
Really though Phil, he explained pretty precisely why this is and even hinted at why the fall off isn't as much as you'd think towards the end of a run - which he's still looking into.
He explained why the first laps should be the fastest (which they are, as you said). He also explained (when you actually piece together WHY he said so many things) that with that compound, combined with a greater cooling effect of a worn tire can bring some grip back near the end of a run - and that it may have to do with certain convection formulae, NOT wear as everyone is saying.
Really guys, I don't see why you're attacking this post as "nothing but PR". At least he talks, and just because he doesn't go into 80 levels of detail doesn't mean he's not trying to explain where things are at given the complaints going on. If you actually think about why he's bring out the information he is, it's a decent job of explaining as simply as possible why there are certain deficiencies people are seeing.
He did more quoting a tire physics book then actually telling us what he was said to. Maybe I read it wrong, but I thought for sure he was supposed to talk about the flaws and upcoming fixes to the NTM.
He does talk, this one time (a whopping 12 posts on the forum in 3 years, most being today), however what he is speaking of isn't exactly what was initially told to us. I'm just tired of caring really.
It's the same grant who drives the lotus 79 with a low rotation steering wheel and says it is awesome. It is the same grant that uses the maximum brake unlinearity number and says its awesome. He is so fast that he can do his best laps on 2nd and 3rd lap out of the pits and he can actually save a slide in the ford gt/lmp. He also teaches chuck norris to drive. All we know he is called Grant.
No matter how much you lower the tire pressure on the impalla the middle of the tire is hotter than the edges on the right sides. Dave. K basically said never mind the tempuratures and just focus on how the car drives. The new tire model is just a bunch of fudged numbers I think. I don't understand why Dave K. doesn't get real world information from Goodyear. Talking side ways about polymer strains makes absolutely no sense. This sim is over rated big time.
DK explained that at great length, you are assuming you are looking at spot core temps at 25%, 50% & 75% accross the tyre which is a reasonable assumption as thats how it is most often done, but the way that it is curretnly being measured is an average of the first 1/3, an average of the middle 1/3 and and average of the last 1/3.
These averages include the shoulders of the tyre and therfore the reported temps on the two outer are lower than what you would expect if you were doing 25%,50% & 75% spot checks.
DK said he will likely change this to be more like spot checks, but he also went into detail on how you can use the data in its current form to 'read' a setup which makes sense entirley and works when building sets. The same principles DK mentioned on reading the temps I have seen referenced in books such as Tune to Win so they are not new principles its just the data readings are in a slightly different form than most people are comfortable with.
Well, the more Dave posts, the more you can see where he gets "data" from. Basically, read ANY post they have said where they have got data from. I only see it from 2 cars, the CoT, and the F1.
The CoT they get from Charlotte, I haven't seen any info that objects to that. The thing is, the Charlotte tire for that race had no fall off. The funny part is, I don't think that he is using the real data, and instead fudging numbers until it "looks accurate". Sadly they can't even get that right.
The F1 apparantly they got info from Spa. Makes sense because that is probably the best place for the F1 car currently. This "info" though is interesting. How much do they get? Surely isn't that much.
I hear ya. The temps I'm talking about though are surface temps I got from MoTec. It seems that no matter the tire pressure the middle temps are always higher on all tires but the LF. iRacing always had problems with tempurates on that tire for some reason. I was just reading that thread and he did say to someone to basically forget the temps and just go by feel which tells me the pressures and temps don't mean anything.
For what it's worth from what I understood the MoTec surface reading were also being averaged at least over 1/5 of the tyre for each sensor and did include the shoulders so would give similar readings methodology to the core garage temps until this situation is changed (not a high priority apparently).
@PMD9409 no argument from me about data sources, I think we all assumed he had a lot more real data to work with for each car than he does seem to have. The reality is that he is likely to have done extensive tests on a variety of tyres and does have some data to benchmark against but the rest remains educated guess work. We know at the very least that he has data downloads and info for the V8SC from the Giz so will be interesting to see how that pans out. It is also very evident that although he has developed a good solid base theoretical model in the NTM he has a hell of a long way to go before we are all were we thought we were going to be now
And it looks like I'll be retired old man before we have in a sim all the aspects I've dreamed about